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JohnM

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No it didn't and such nonsense doesn't gain in veracity by repetition. It might be the wish of neo-liberals to perpetuate the idea that an increase in disposable income and consequent ability to partake in consumerism madness changes a persons class, but it is simply untrue.

Only the far-left use the term neo-liberal.

What is class if it is not material circumstances and opportunities?

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Since the universal franchise the Tories have had to trim. But they do as little as possible to gain election. In other words Labour keeps them honest.

This is something true of politicians in general. Opposition keeps them relatively honest.

Remarks like John's "donkey" gives the game away of what they truly think. You only have to get Tories talking to get them to reveal what they'd really like to do to the working people of this country. That expression was a favourite one of my right wing Tory supporting mother in law. Under the skin they are exactly like the Tories of the 19th century. As for those who supported the Northern Union, I think if you look back most of the tradesmen and millowners were non-comformist Liberals, and as far as the Tories who ran the RFU, the MCC and everything else, indistinguishable from the weavers and miners playing the game.

In the sixties I played Rugby Union for a "first class club" - not for the first team miind you I wasn't good enough. But there were plenty of my mates who were, and when the sons of the millowners etc (who by now had become Tories) came home from Uni at Christmas and Easter, they were quickly dropped form the first team to make space for the club's benefactors. As a regular 3rd teamer, I of course found myself in the 4th team, as we all moved down a level to make room for them. It was good in a way - it meant for brief periods the 4th's couild play XV a side instead of "any number can play" But I know the displaced 1st teamers resented it. The class system in the UK is alive and well. Dave (Lord Snooty) and his pals is perpetuating it to the best of his ability. I believe the appointment of Lynton Crosby as election co-ordinator throws out the last pretences of "detoxification" Wait for things to turn really nasty in the next 2 1/2 years.

That was 50 years ago.

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Only the far-left use the term neo-liberal.

What is class if it is not material circumstances and opportunities?

And you call yourself an economist! I think they should take that A level off you.

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Class is not part of economics, it is part of sociology.

But I note that you ducked the question. What is class if it is not economic circumstances and opportunities?

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This is something true of politicians in general. Opposition keeps them relatively honest.

That was 50 years ago.

It's exactly the same today.

I speak to many Tories on a daily basis. They are perfectly ordinary people on most subjects, but when you get them on to politics they turn into racist bigots. They want hanging back, they think most of the unemployed are wasters and robbers, they want us out of the EU. Most of them despised Cameron, as a wet, whether they stiil will once Lynton Crosby gets to work, we shall see. It used to be their mantra "they're on benefit but can afford cars," now it's they can afford Sky. And they make no secret of their views. If they could go back to the "rich man in his castle, the poor man at his gate" they would. It's what they believe. I'm sure Cameron, Osbourne, Gove and the rest of them (in private) are just the same as their supporters in the country.

The whole point of Labour is that it is a party founded to try and improve the lot of the working man - that is the reason it exists. IMO "New Labour" (Tory Lite) was an aberration, basically created by Thatcher and as a reaction to the Militant Tendency. It would seem that Labour is now reverting back to its social democrat roots.

The Tories are there to protect vested interests of the better off - that's why they've done away with the 50p tax rate. That's why they've introduced the 20% Vat rate. That's why they've allowed the NHS to be run for the profit of private health companies. They are ultimately bad for our country, all social progress in the 20th century came from the LIberals or Labour. OK the Tories went along with some of it, but give them the opportunity to reduce workers rights and benefits and they're straight in there. It's what they're there for. It's why large companies pour large sums of money into the Tory party's coffers. They can outspend they're opponents probably by 100% is they have to. They can hire the best. And they to that's how they stay ahead of the game. Anyone who thinks differently is not living in the real world. The Tories have never really changed and never will. If an unprecedented 13 years in opposition can't get them to change their ways nothing will. It's the frog and the scorpion.

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I can't see how you can argue that economic growth didn't lead to "social progress".

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Since the universal franchise the Tories have had to trim. But they do as little as possible to gain election. In other words Labour keeps them honest. Remarks like John's "donkey" gives the game away of what they truly think. You only have to get Tories talking to get them to reveal what they'd really like to do to the working people of this country. That expression was a favourite one of my right wing Tory supporting mother in law. Under the skin they are exactly like the Tories of the 19th century. As for those who supported the Northern Union, I think if you look back most of the tradesmen and millowners were non-comformist Liberals, and as far as the Tories who ran the RFU, the MCC and everything else, indistinguishable from the weavers and miners playing the game.

In the sixties I played Rugby Union for a "first class club" - not for the first team miind you I wasn't good enough. But there were plenty of my mates who were, and when the sons of the millowners etc (who by now had become Tories) came home from Uni at Christmas and Easter, they were quickly dropped form the first team to make space for the club's benefactors. As a regular 3rd teamer, I of course found myself in the 4th team, as we all moved down a level to make room for them. It was good in a way - it meant for brief periods the 4th's couild play XV a side instead of "any number can play" But I know the displaced 1st teamers resented it. The class system in the UK is alive and well. Dave (Lord Snooty) and his pals is perpetuating it to the best of his ability. I believe the appointment of Lynton Crosby as election co-ordinator throws out the last pretences of "detoxification" Wait for things to turn really nasty in the next 2 1/2 years.

Good grief! You are joking, right? You don't REALLY believe what you have just written? Not even John Prescott would agree with you! This is so far from reality , so far from truth, that it shows you really have no idea about any of it. No War But Class War , eh?

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Class is not part of economics ..... what is class if it is not economic circumstances ....

Confused again?

Class is about your relationship to the means of production comrade.

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Good grief! You are joking, right? You don't REALLY believe what you have just written? Not even John Prescott would agree with you! This is so far from reality , so far from truth, that it shows you really have no idea about any of it. No War But Class War , eh?

Nonsense, Trojan is 100% correct.

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In fairness to JohnM both parties use safe seats as a plaything and both abuse their party support. We all know of seats where the figurative donkey could get elected or where someone regarded as vital to the national party can be parachuted in to guarantee election (often against the local members wishes)..

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Confused again?

Class is about your relationship to the means of production comrade.

So largely meaningless then?

If I shine shoes for a living but I own my own rag then I must be middle class.

If I am an engineer but don't own my own factory then I must be working class.

Not to mention that many jobs don't actually "produce" anything.

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Good grief! You are joking, right? You don't REALLY believe what you have just written? Not even John Prescott would agree with you! This is so far from reality , so far from truth, that it shows you really have no idea about any of it. No War But Class War , eh?

I'm not joking John. What the council in Rotherham have done is wrong. But basically I believe that Labour are the good guys - they start from the premise that they want to make everyone's life better. The Tories are the opposite. It's always the Tories who take away from everyday people what they've won and give the benefit to the better off mnority. AS far as I'm concerned that is a fact of life Tories = bad guys, Labour = good guys. No matter how far they stray from these definitions, that's where they come from.

BTW I doubt John Prescott would disagree with me - if anyone can confirm the Tories derisory attitude to anyone they consider beneath them John can. The story he tells of the way Tory MP's treated him because he'd been a steward on an ocean liner speaks volumes about how the Tories see the rest of us.

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So largely meaningless then?

If I shine shoes for a living but I own my own rag then I must be middle class.

If I am an engineer but don't own my own factory then I must be working class.

Not to mention that many jobs don't actually "produce" anything.

No. It's about your "relationship" to the means of production.

Do you care to explain how "economic circumstances" it's not about economics?

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No. It's about your "relationship" to the means of production.

And how is that not "ownership"?

Do you care to explain how "economic circumstances" it's not about economics?

I said that economics doesn't talk about class. It's a sociological concept.

Insofar as it has meaning, it means how economically well-off you are and what opportunities you have.

But's that not an economics definition.

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In fairness to JohnM both parties use safe seats as a plaything and both abuse their party support. We all know of seats where the figurative donkey could get elected or where someone regarded as vital to the national party can be parachuted in to guarantee election (often against the local members wishes)..

"You could put a red rosette on a pig and they'd vote for it in Rotherham."

A quote by a person who votes in Rotherham in today's Guardian.

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Local Government, and similar public authorities, is the only viable refuge for hard left socialists. They distrust the right to make a profit, they distrust the motives of people with opposing political views and they feel no guilt about their own minority views influencing official impositions and decisions.

Unfortunately, their principles never extend to resigning when an instance of gross misjudgement is exposed.

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"You could put a red rosette on a pig and they'd vote for it in Rotherham."

A quote by a person who votes in Rotherham in today's Guardian.

This statement has already been well discussed on this thread. The question no one seems to answer is why this is the case.

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This statement has already been well discussed on this thread. The question no one seems to answer is why this is the case.

I thought it worth pointing out that your ridiculous and insufferable point was that only Tories from outside Rotherham would say it about the people there thus revealing their deep-seated class hostility when in actual fact it's a common term used by people about safe seats of all hues.

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Looks like Respect are causing problems in Rotherham. Labour candidate pulled out of debate on local BBC radio so she could do more door to door canvassing (poor debating skills being hidden?). Sounds like they are worried?

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Looks like Respect are causing problems in Rotherham. Labour candidate pulled out of debate on local BBC radio so she could do more door to door canvassing (poor debating skills being hidden?). Sounds like they are worried?

I think Labour are very worried their vote will stay at home either out of protest or "because Labour'll win anyway". Respect are good at getting people to the ballot box.

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I thought it worth pointing out that your ridiculous and insufferable point was that only Tories from outside Rotherham would say it about the people there thus revealing their deep-seated class hostility when in actual fact it's a common term used by people about safe seats of all hues.

The only people I've heard make the remark are Tories -I've never heard a Labour or a Lib/'Dem for that matter say if you put up a pig and tied a blue ribbon to it etc. The remark epitomises for me the Tory attitude to Labour voters. As I posted earlier my mother in law said it frequently, with a note of contempt in her voice you'd have to hear to believe.

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I thought it worth pointing out that your ridiculous and insufferable point was that only Tories from outside Rotherham would say it about the people there thus revealing their deep-seated class hostility when in actual fact it's a common term used by people about safe seats of all hues.

Which Lib Dem seats does it apply to, incidentally?

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I've lived in Rotherham for over 40 years and despite my personal huge disillusionment with Labour ( never again after Iraq but that's another thread ) I'd be truly astonished if they don't get voted back in again. It's just what people do in Rotherham. However If I were a betting man I think Respect may nick a few votes from them this time around.

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The only people I've heard make the remark are Tories -I've never heard a Labour or a Lib/'Dem for that matter say if you put up a pig and tied a blue ribbon to it etc.

It's been said on here - quite often with specific reference to Mid Bedfordshire.

Which Lib Dem seats does it apply to, incidentally?

Sheffield Hallam once the boundary review is completed. It's going to be redrawn so it covers a single house in Putney.

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