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saints10coach

Oldham /Salford

836 posts in this topic

???

There was no French club in 1995, and if you are referring to the totals I posted I didn't post a figure for 1995.

You can't pick and chose the teams that are in and out of the figures, if France is ignored do we also ignore Wales.

What about Essex should that be included or ignored.

Maybe you should have a word with the RFL as you could be on to something, part of their operating profit should be ignored as a French team has contributed and their figures don't count. The tax man owes tthe RFL some cashback.

I don't really see that the Wales/Essex analogies are relevant. Surely the key difference is that pro RL was not being played or watched in Wales or Essex in '93/'94 so it is accurate to represent any current audience in those areas as being 'new' or growth.

Catalans Dragons may not have existed back then but St Esteve & xiii Catalans certainly did, as such any set of stats which represents the entirety of the dragons' attendance as growth is misleading to some degree.

Personaly i think it would be more accurate to either compare like with like and look only at UK attendance, this would still show growth. Or find a way of determing what proportion of catalans' crowd is actual growth.

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???

There was no French club in 1995, and if you are referring to the totals I posted I didn't post a figure for 1995.

You can't pick and chose the teams that are in and out of the figures, if France is ignored do we also ignore Wales.

What about Essex should that be included or ignored.

Maybe you should have a word with the RFL as you could be on to something, part of their operating profit should be ignored as a French team has contributed and their figures don't count. The tax man owes tthe RFL some cashback.

I didn't think it was that hard.

in 1994 (or whatever) the attendances in the UK were X

in 2011 the attendances in the UK and in Catalans was Y (including the playoffs I presume)

Attendances have gone up (Y-X).

However to determine whether SL has "boosted gates" in the UK we need to find out how much the Catalans (Z) have contributed to last years figures.

It seems to me that Y-Z-X = not much. So the claim that SL has boosted gates is only true if we include a French team.

I do not contest that including the French in the competition has increased SL attendances, however I do contest extrapolating that fact to claim SL is increasing attendances at clubs in the UK.

Since your post and to add weight to the argument, by concentrating our efforts so much on SL, we have undermined attendances for the Challenge cup, and removed other domestic cup competitions, which I'm sure someone will prove will show a net loss in attendance in the UK.

However I concede you never argued SL was anything other than a vehicle to give a few clubs enough money to dominate the game for as long as SKY is the benefactor.

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There is no reason to exclude Catalan, unless of course you would like to skew the figures more to your own liking.

Should Crusaders be taken out of the figures, they didn't exist in 93/94 and they existed in 2011, should any club who hasn't existed since 1895 to present be excluded from any historic analysis after all they skew the figures for the period they existed.

The question was how many watched RL pre SL and how many now. Whether its France or Wales, Lancashire or Yorkshire or even Essex is irrelevant. The RFL had no authority over and got no money from the previous incarnations of Catalan, they are however responsible for Cataln and make money from Catalan. That is the big difference.

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However to determine whether SL has "boosted gates" in the UK we need to find out how much the Catalans have contributed to last years figures.

By concentrating our efforts so much on SL, we have undermined attendances for the Challenge cup.

Why not just look at the simple figures.Look at how crowds have gone up from 1995 to date instead of looking for contrivances that are simply silly.

Just like the idea SL has destroyed the Challenge cup. Wasn't it Wigan who won it ad nauseum for several years before Superleague??

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Why were there no plans to merge Wigan and Saints? Effectively two medium sized towns which are no bigger combined than Humberside

More contrived nonsense.

What's "medium sized towns" got to do with it. These are big clubs that attract fans from a whole region including into major cities like Manchester and Liverpool and who each run a big stand alone youth development programme that keeps them giants of the game.

People when contriving stuff don't see how the other argument defeats their own. Why don't we have TWO SL clubs in Manchester/Salford then? It's big enough??

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And if you believe that rich men dont invest in Championship clubs then you clearly have no idea. Try reading about Tony Abbott and Reactivmedia http://www.halifaxco...lland-1-3889323 .

You read about Tony Abbott. The point is simple - very rich men have come into the game to support Superleague clubs with large amounts of money from £500K a year to up to a £1,000,000.

If Abbot ever decides he wants Superleague he can fill all the massive holes in Fax's SL application found by KPMG and be another one, same with Nahaboo.

The big investors want Superleague, not a semi pro club. Hence Superleague attracts major private investment which is one of it's big achievements.

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Whether my club is in SL or not is not that important, but you seem to think for me it is.

I have to take people's word for it that they have no axe to grind.

I also have to look at how all the attacks on Superleague by some of the most twisted contrived arguments I have ever seen come exclusively from fans of clubs who were refused SL or ended up slipping out of SL or have the chance to be in SL but feel blocked.

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I have to take people's word for it that they have no axe to grind.

I also have to look at how all the attacks on Superleague by some of the most twisted contrived arguments I have ever seen come exclusively from fans of clubs who were refused SL or ended up slipping out of SL or have the chance to be in SL but feel blocked.

It doesn't matter to me as long as we have a team to watch every matchday. But what I would like to see is a breakaway like they have in darts so the CC clubs can get a decent stream of income.

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It doesn't matter to me..........

But what I would like to see is a breakaway....

If it doesn't matter your not in SL .why do you want to breakaway Gaz??.

your letting the team down mate.......

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The advent of SL has totally undermined what used to be our Blue Ribbon event.

Here's another one. Was this the Challenge cup won by the same club 8 years in a row BEFORE superleague, the challenge cup won since SL by SIX clubs

Another major anti-SL contrivance

Grind that Axe lad.....

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What is not so positive is that the SL attendances are a much greater proportion of the total RL crowds. and that crowd increases are gravitating to only one competition, whilst the Championship is about level overall (but less of the total), the Challenge Cup and internationals have decreased.

OK the rise in SL crowds have destroyed the Challenge Cup crowds? Are you lot PM'ing each other with this particular gem?

Next SL has destroyed international crowds...

Did it also eat your Hamster?

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If it doesn't matter your not in SL .why do you want to breakaway Gaz??.

your letting the team down mate.......

What I'm trying to say is I would watch my team whatever league they are in and I don't care if its not SL I just want my team to survive and I think breaking away would give my club more income that's all as SL is becoming a joke for me I've never watched a SL game since the SL started as I don't believe in no relegation.

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The attendance figures do not show a significant increase in the fan base in the UK over the period of SL.

There goes my Gillette yearbooks - I've swept them off the shelves into the bin.

Clearly they are all wrong

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Cheers Padge - so whichever way it is cut, the crowds are up!

Oh no :wacko:

I'll have to get mi books back out of the bin.

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There is no reason to exclude Catalan, unless of course you would like to skew the figures more to your own liking.

Should Crusaders be taken out of the figures, they didn't exist in 93/94 and they existed in 2011, should any club who hasn't existed since 1895 to present be excluded from any historic analysis after all they skew the figures for the period they existed.

The question was how many watched RL pre SL and how many now. Whether its France or Wales, Lancashire or Yorkshire or even Essex is irrelevant. The RFL had no authority over and got no money from the previous incarnations of Catalan, they are however responsible for Cataln and make money from Catalan. That is the big difference.

Couple of illustrative examples:

In your '93/'94 figures have you included the attendances of the Sheffield & Huddersfield? If so, why? They are no more relevant to the current Huddetsfield & Sheffield clubs than St Esteve/xiii catalan & laterly UTC are to the Dragons.

If, god forbid, Fev, Cas & Wakey merged tomorrow and were drawing average gates of 20k, could anyone plausibly claim that represented 20k new fans to the game? Thats the claim you're making with Catalans.

Without the figures to hand i'd wager that crowds for Catalans are at least double pre SL levels, admirable growth but theres no need use dubious figures to make growth in crowds look even larger than they are.

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It doesn't matter to me as long as we have a team to watch every matchday. But what I would like to see is a breakaway like they have in darts so the CC clubs can get a decent stream of income.

What revenue, currently unavailble to champs clubs, would be made available as a result of a breakaway?

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Theres no need use dubious figures to make growth in crowds look even larger than they are.

Why not get off yer bum and do the research yourself?

Come on give us some facts and figures yourself.

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Why not get off yer bum and do the research yourself?

Come on give us some facts and figures yourself.

a) i do not have access to a resource that would provide the relevant information, namely the attendances of st esteve & xiii catalan in '93/'94 or UTC immediately prior to catalans' entry into into SL.

b. ) I dont need the exact figures to be confident that they are not zero. The point im making is really nothing more than suggesting it is wrong to suggest catalans crowds have grown to present levels from a zero staring point.

Im not sure shat you find so provocative about what I've said, care to expand?

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You read about Tony Abbott. The point is simple - very rich men have come into the game to support Superleague clubs with large amounts of money from £500K a year to up to a £1,000,000.

If Abbot ever decides he wants Superleague he can fill all the massive holes in Fax's SL application found by KPMG and be another one, same with Nahaboo.

The big investors want Superleague, not a semi pro club. Hence Superleague attracts major private investment which is one of it's big achievements.

You throw out challenges like some fairground brawler confident that you will not be challenged or beaten, then when two rich investors involved with two Cc club s are quoted to you, you immediately rubbish their involvement. Has it occurred to you that if either Fax or Fev were given an opportunity to be in SL, these two might step up and finance those two clubs like the others have in SL and like Davy, Wilkinson and Hudgell did for their respective clubs when they were in the Championships but with p and r.

The investors in SL that you trumpet are welcome but clearly not well heeled enough to survive at Salford, Hull KR, and Crusaders. Time will tell, but the signs are that London and Widnes will have to survive without the level of investor support they have had heretofore. The size of the wallet upon which Bradford are standing is not so definite either.

So. It's not so simple. Stop being so SL centric and full of bitterness and bile towards any ambitious CC clubs ( Except Fev of course who you have consistently championed so you can claim to be a fan of CC elevation to SL). SL has helped the game but it is far, far from being a panacea for the games ills and has more problems than sucesses. It's very future is uncertain if you look at the number of shakey and underfunded clubs in it's ranks. It's apparent inability to continue to finance players development dosn't look too confident a message to be sending to the world either.

SL is a work in progress and that progress is far from certain. The SL might just have to temper it's overeaching ambition to be a fully pro league, whether we like it or not. Money rules. If SL clubs continue to falter like they have in the past couple of years, the game might need some stable CC clubs to halt the slide.

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It doesn't matter to me as long as we have a team to watch every matchday. But what I would like to see is a breakaway like they have in darts so the CC clubs can get a decent stream of income.

Do tell me where this decent stream of income is going to come from.

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You throw out challenges like some fairground brawler confident that you will not be challenged or beaten, then when two rich investors involved with two Cc club s are quoted to you, you immediately rubbish their involvement.

So when these two rich investors throw their hat in the ring and start putting money in to underpin an application to Superleague, and when they get in Superleague like O'Connor and Hudgell did by actually showing the cash then we will STILL have all the big rich investors in Superleague.

And I will STILL go round saying Superleague attracts rich investors with serious money, hence it's a good thing for the game.

And I will still say nobody rich is interested in semi pro RL.

Your so quick to see if you can have a go at me that you forgot what we once spoke about. This was an all inclusive 16 club SL (you you miserable devil only wanted 14 in it) with a lower salary cap and P & R. Naturally as Fax had an application in last time and just missed out and Rovers are seriously itching to get in they'd be my 15th. and 16th. choice and Nahaboo and Abbott could out some serious money in but not so much it'd break them like it's broken Hudgell.

Such a league, with a lower cap, which I supported with you would include Fev and Halifax.

I thought we had something positive going there Mr. K. But it's all gone back to SL bashing :lol:

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I'm not sure shat you find so provocative about what I've said, care to expand?

With pleasure my good sir.

There are figures and articles easily available to see if under Superleague more fans watch the game, to see where all the professional players come from, and to see how much Superleague has attracted in revenue from TV and private investors enthused by pro-RL.

I'm quite happy to spend some time and effort putting these together to see if we can agree some facts, I'm quite happy to table them. and people are quite happy to pick them to bits and contrive to tell me they are all wrong.

If they are wrong and it's not a fact that Superleague attracts lots more fans, TV money, Private money and quality players - everything our games needs - then perhaps those who argue with the figures can do their own figures and show me what the real facts are?

When they don't do this I suspect it's because they really know the truth, but just don't like it.

I'm not bothered but Padge makes some very big efforts in this direction and it's quite unfair to call his efforts "dubious"

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There is no reason to exclude Catalan, unless of course you would like to skew the figures more to your own liking.

Should Crusaders be taken out of the figures, they didn't exist in 93/94 and they existed in 2011, should any club who hasn't existed since 1895 to present be excluded from any historic analysis after all they skew the figures for the period they existed.

The question was how many watched RL pre SL and how many now. Whether its France or Wales, Lancashire or Yorkshire or even Essex is irrelevant. The RFL had no authority over and got no money from the previous incarnations of Catalan, they are however responsible for Cataln and make money from Catalan. That is the big difference.

If you are talking about whether there are more speccies in the UK for pro and semi-pro rugby league then there is every reason to exclude Catalan as they are not in the UK, Bridgend and Wrexham are in the UK so it would be odd to exclude Crusaders.

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Couple of illustrative examples:

In your '93/'94 figures have you included the attendances of the Sheffield & Huddersfield? If so, why? They are no more relevant to the current Huddetsfield & Sheffield clubs than St Esteve/xiii catalan & laterly UTC are to the Dragons.

If, god forbid, Fev, Cas & Wakey merged tomorrow and were drawing average gates of 20k, could anyone plausibly claim that represented 20k new fans to the game? Thats the claim you're making with Catalans.

Without the figures to hand i'd wager that crowds for Catalans are at least double pre SL levels, admirable growth but there's no need use dubious figures to make growth in crowds look even larger than they are.

The figures quoted, and the figures used for all charts presented are the official figures for ALL clubs under the auspices of the RFL, nobody has been deliberately added in nor anyone deliberately left out.

Because the figures don't suit some peoples agenda they want to massage the official figures as set down in the record books to alter the facts.

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You throw out challenges like some fairground brawler

Fairground brawler :lol: :lol: :lol:

The challenge I threw out to all the axe grinders was this.........

"Where do you think Rugby League would be today if the game had rejected the SKY offer of millions of pounds a year to stage an elite competition"

Oddly, no matter how many times I asked that nobody really wanted to answer that apart from you, so well played.

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