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saints10coach

Oldham /Salford

836 posts in this topic

With all due respect, no-one has proven categorically that SL has been the catalyst for an increase in attendance at RL matches in the UK since 1994..

I don't care about France, only SL cares, I care about the UK. I care that the propagandist won't admit SL only benefits SL to the tune of £££££. Nothing else.

The other facts are bluster and hot air.

The only caveat I had for the stats was that we look at the UK. So when Tolouse enter SL, crowds will go up again. Hoorah for SL.

Fine for you all, dance a jig if you want. Carry on repeating time and gain how better off WE are.

The RFL have just handed out £150,000 to Featherstone, where do you think the RFL gets the money from, is Red Hall surrounded by mythical money trees. If you couldn't care less about Catalan then you do not care that they put money into the coffers but I'll bet you would be willing to accept it. Maybe Cataln should be exempt from paying into the Challenge Cup and play-off pots since they don't have anything to do with UK RL. Maybe the RFL's shareholding in SL should be reduced by 1/14th and the money given to Catalan, after all they are nothing to do with us.

The RFL has various income streams and believe it or not one of those is SL through its share in SLE, through SL play-offs and the SL grand final and through SL clubs taking part in the Challenge Cup and believe it or not Catalan are part of SL and are therefore a net contributor to the coffers that allow, Keighley to have their ground protected, allow Fev to be assisted with their ground upgrade to the tune of £150k amongst many other none SL projects that the RFL funds.

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The RFL have just handed out £150,000 to Featherstone, where do you think the RFL gets the money from, is Red Hall surrounded by mythical money trees. If you couldn't care less about Catalan then you do not care that they put money into the coffers but I'll bet you would be willing to accept it. Maybe Cataln should be exempt from paying into the Challenge Cup and play-off pots since they don't have anything to do with UK RL. Maybe the RFL's shareholding in SL should be reduced by 1/14th and the money given to Catalan, after all they are nothing to do with us.

The RFL has various income streams and believe it or not one of those is SL through its share in SLE, through SL play-offs and the SL grand final and through SL clubs taking part in the Challenge Cup and believe it or not Catalan are part of SL and are therefore a net contributor to the coffers that allow, Keighley to have their ground protected, allow Fev to be assisted with their ground upgrade to the tune of £150k amongst many other none SL projects that the RFL funds.

That £150,000 probably came from Sports England

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That £150,000 probably came from Sports England

This is the thing. For some people everything good in RL is because of Super League.

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That £150,000 probably came from Sports England

Hmm, i wouldn't be too sure on that one. Based on what ive read the rfl facilities trust administers two funds, the 'whole sport fund' & the 'rfl capital fund. The whole sport fund does appear to be essentially sport england but it seems unlikely a pro club could get funding for a stand from it, its aims are around participation.

The rfl capital fund seems a far more likely source & whilst its not clear exactly where it money comes from the lack of credit to any external funding seems to suggest its likely to be money from within the game.

Cant link from my phone but for anyone interested google rfl facilities trust.

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The Sport England funding used by the Facilities Trust is only for community projects and is aimed at projects that increase participation.

http://www.rflfacilitiestrust.co.uk/funding

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Whilst the facts and figures are from 2010 there's some interesting reading in here from the RFL for anyone that missed it first time around.

Lot of good points made in the thread, I always think, personally many of our problems stem from being a sport built on splits and breakaways a tradition we seem keen to carry on!

I do wonder what would happen if the game were 100% united and the RFL free to put in place a strategy, free from threats of breakaways or splits, what direction they'd take the game in and how we might all benefit, because it strikes me, in difficult circumstances they do a pretty decent job at the moment.

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The RFL have just handed out £150,000 to Featherstone, where do you think the RFL gets the money from, is Red Hall surrounded by mythical money trees. If you couldn't care less about Catalan then you do not care that they put money into the coffers but I'll bet you would be willing to accept it. Maybe Cataln should be exempt from paying into the Challenge Cup and play-off pots since they don't have anything to do with UK RL. Maybe the RFL's shareholding in SL should be reduced by 1/14th and the money given to Catalan, after all they are nothing to do with us.

The RFL has various income streams and believe it or not one of those is SL through its share in SLE, through SL play-offs and the SL grand final and through SL clubs taking part in the Challenge Cup and believe it or not Catalan are part of SL and are therefore a net contributor to the coffers that allow, Keighley to have their ground protected, allow Fev to be assisted with their ground upgrade to the tune of £150k amongst many other none SL projects that the RFL funds.

Do the RFL not get susbstantial moneys from the receipts and TV money from international RL such as the roughly 98,000 spectators and the BBC/Sky money from the last 4 nations? Do you know what percentage of the SL money goes to the RFL for redistribution and what percentage goes straight to the SL clubs. Seeing as how the Sky contract is with SL and not the RFL, I'm willing to make a guess that it's not a very high percentage. Looking out for the wider game is not in the DNA of SL clubs.

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The continued downward trend of Challenge Cup attendances (nobody is arguing otherwise on this point??) is well-known, but hasn't had the same sort of analysis that the league games have had courtesy of Padge, for the absolute figures.

Everybody used to pay at Challenge Cup games but now the trend is for a proportion to be let in free via the season ticket.

Recently, Eddie and Stevo slagged off the Challenge Cup as getting in the way of the Grand Final/league title/Play-offs run-in.......and it wasn't just the once.

So.....Sky haven't been good for the Challenge Cup as they de-generate its existence.

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The continued downward trend of Challenge Cup attendances (nobody is arguing otherwise on this point??) is well-known, but hasn't had the same sort of analysis that the league games have had courtesy of Padge, for the absolute figures.

Everybody used to pay at Challenge Cup games but now the trend is for a proportion to be let in free via the season ticket.

Recently, Eddie and Stevo slagged off the Challenge Cup as getting in the way of the Grand Final/league title/Play-offs run-in.......and it wasn't just the once.

So.....Sky haven't been good for the Challenge Cup as they de-generate its existence.

I'd have thought the Sky coverage may get a little more positive now they've got coverage of some matches!

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Looking out for the wider game is not in the DNA of SL clubs.

Is it in the DNA of any clubs?

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Do the RFL not get susbstantial moneys from the receipts and TV money from international RL such as the roughly 98,000 spectators and the BBC/Sky money from the last 4 nations? Do you know what percentage of the SL money goes to the RFL for redistribution and what percentage goes straight to the SL clubs. Seeing as how the Sky contract is with SL and not the RFL, I'm willing to make a guess that it's not a very high percentage. Looking out for the wider game is not in the DNA of SL clubs.

To repeat hence I used the phrase "many income streams"

However Catalan Dragons contribute to those income strings, to try and pretend as some are that they are somehow nothing to do with UK RL whatever that is, is just another piece of straw grabbing nonesense.SL clubs contribute more to the RFL than other clubs, what percentage of various totals is neither here nor there. Are you now joining the ostriches in denying that Catalan make any contribution to RFL.

the

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Is it in the DNA of any clubs?

No.

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The continued downward trend of Challenge Cup attendances (nobody is arguing otherwise on this point??) is well-known, I'm sure the will be stats to support that somewhere.

Everybody used to pay at Challenge Cup games but now the trend is for a proportion to be let in free via the season ticket. Is that so? how does that work of a club gets knocked out early or if a club manages home games right up the semis? Free? not built into the season ticket price? it still costs a club money to let some people in for nothing.

Recently, Eddie and Stevo slagged off the Challenge Cup as getting in the way of the Grand Final/league title/Play-offs run-in.......and it wasn't just the once. So.....Sky haven't been good for the Challenge Cup as they de-generate its existence. Are Eddie and Stevo really that influential? I thought everyone on here disliked them. Are they more influential in their condemnation than the BBC are in their advocacy?

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So when these two rich investors throw their hat in the ring and start putting money in to underpin an application to Superleague, and when they get in Superleague like O'Connor and Hudgell did by actually showing the cash then we will STILL have all the big rich investors in Superleague.

And I will STILL go round saying Superleague attracts rich investors with serious money, hence it's a good thing for the game.

And I will still say nobody rich is interested in semi pro RL.

Your so quick to see if you can have a go at me that you forgot what we once spoke about. This was an all inclusive 16 club SL (you you miserable devil only wanted 14 in it) with a lower salary cap and P & R. Naturally as Fax had an application in last time and just missed out and Rovers are seriously itching to get in they'd be my 15th. and 16th. choice and Nahaboo and Abbott could out some serious money in but not so much it'd break them like it's broken Hudgell.

Such a league, with a lower cap, which I supported with you would include Fev and Halifax.

I thought we had something positive going there Mr. K. But it's all gone back to SL bashing :lol:

Parky,

You are a master at redirection when your posts seem to be heading for the rocks.

In this instance your claim was that no rich persons would ever be interested in investing in CC clubs. When the error of this claim is shown to you, the redirection begins and the thrust of your argument becomes that the said clubs will be in SL soon so then they won't be shown to be investing in CC clubs.

If your original claim was correct, namely that rich investors only gravitate to SL clubs then Nahaboo and Bennett could have put their money into Salford, Hull KR or Bradford, all of whom were crying out for new investors to join them. They did not, they went to Fev and Fax, two CC clubs. I will also state my belief that if there was a much more guaranteed route to SL than the present licencing lottery then more investors than those two would take a chance on higher end CC teams.

I do remember the discussion we had re an expanded SL.It's not likely to ever happen though and all suggested scenarios for a future SL are contraction plans not expansion. I am not against SL either and I am not one saying it has been an unmitigated disaster and I an definitely not one saying we should have turned down the Sky money. That would have been seriously savaging a gift horse.

The problems I have with SL are

1. It siphons off too much of the Sky money and there has not been a rock solid viable league as a result and the lower leagues have seriously stagnated when there are many potential solid SL member clubs languishing there due to lack of finacing, or the opportunity to enter SL.

2. At the moment, it is aiming too high. This goal of full time professionalism is proving unsustainable. It's pointless trying to maintain it when it's resulting in multiple financial crises and even bankruptcies. The proposed answer to these ills of contraction and a bigger share of the pie for fewer teams is just plain stupid. Rather reorganise and preserve and even expand. If its semi pro for some or a vastly reduced salary cap then so be it. The game prospered for a long, long time as a semi pro entity. It's been known from day one, we don't have the resources to pay humongous wages, hence the work clauses etc.

3. The myopic self centred views of the league which are all about my club, my club, my club. This results in all the wrongheaded attempts ( mostly successful) to constantly maintain the status quo and the refusal to sustain the rest of the league by allowing other teams to join the party and recirculate the water. Its becoming a stagnant pond of revolving sameness which will ultimately result in staleness and decline.

So, in cocnlusion, I do not hate SL. I am pleased for it's successes and upset with it's failures and the non inclusive perpetuation of it's membership.

For me, I find the absolute denial that any Cc club, apart from Fev, can ever rise to be a SL club perplexing. There are clearly several clubs that could be considered and several other areas with clubs in towns bigger than many SL towns and with the stadia to boot or with imminent plans to elevate their stadia to SL standard, who should be being encouraged towards eventual SL membership and not just rubbished as being incapable of ever being SL ready. Whilst in this thread you are championing Fax as well for a SL plcae, you have authored several others where you have decried Fax, Sheffield, Keighley, Leigh and any others as ever being ready SL candidates. Rather than me being anti SL, it is you being anti CC and anti expansion and meritocratic advancement for Cc clubs that I find perplexing, especially as you claim to be a Hunslet supporter.

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I imagine the biggest amount the RFL will receive in the next 12 months will be from the World Cup and it was reported only this week that only 31% of ticket sales to date are from Super League clubs!!!! International matches, Challenge Cup Finals and even the Grand Final at Old Trafford attract fans from ALL clubs not just SL.

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Is it in the DNA of any clubs?

Probably not but

1. Noblesse Oblige and

2. That;s why its not good that the Sky contract is with SLE and not the RFL, who SHOULD have the DNA to look after the whole game.

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see http://www.therfl.co...tkinsReview.pdf

Section 9 of the Watkins review recommends that RFL profit is equally distributed to each professional member of the RFL (whether they be Super League or Championship). 10 per cent of the profits should continue to be distributed to the Community Game.

The current distribution of RFL profits to members is also an issue that is in need of review. At present, 60 per cent of profit is directed to members in the Super League, 30 per cent to members in the Championships and 10 per cent to the Community Game.

Also see appendix 2, page 23

As stated previously the RFL retains the rights to the Challenge Cup competition and to International and Representative Rugby League. It also receives a 1/16 th share of the SLE TV contract as a contribution towards the sport’s central costs. To add to these revenues the RFL receives funding from Sport England to deliver against the participation and performance directives (set by Sport England). Naturally all monies received from Sport England are expended upon delivery against t participation and performance directives, or making a contribution towards the overhead of providing those services.The RFL pays for all centrally provided services for the entire sport: the Community Game, the Championships and Super League. The cost of these central services in 2012 is estimated to be £2.8m, therefore the 1/16 th share received from SLE represents 47 per cent toward these costs.

In my view, without the huge pull on the game provided by SuperLeague, the game would be moribund if not more or less defunct and there would be more or less no Sport England money anyway,

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I imagine the biggest amount the RFL will receive in the next 12 months will be from the World Cup and it was reported only this week that only 31% of ticket sales to date are from Super League clubs!!!! International matches, Challenge Cup Finals and even the Grand Final at Old Trafford attract fans from ALL clubs not just SL.

You may note that you will see very few posts from fans of SL clubs that split the game out as SL vs Championship. The only posts I see on this kind of theme is from some fans of some Championship clubs who seem to have a real hatred of the SL.

Whilst it may be understandable to an extent, I have read many posts from people stating that they never watch Sooper Dooper League (or similar) and criticise everything about it, when there is pretty much no animosity the other way. This 'split' is a one way argument in my experience, where fans of SL clubs are dismissed as not proper fans much of the time, with some people ignoring what these people do to support the game.

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2. That;s why its not good that the Sky contract is with SLE and not the RFL, who SHOULD have the DNA to look after the whole game.

I'm not so sure on that one tbh.

It feels right that the clubs who make up the comp that has sold its TV rights get the say in where those funds go.

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I'm not so sure on that one tbh.

It feels right that the clubs who make up the comp that has sold its TV rights get the say in where those funds go.

And that's exactly where they do go and the job they are doing with them leaves a lot to be desired .

The RFL could distribute them a little more fairly and then there might be some suitable replacements for the many SL failures.

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And that's exactly where they do go and the job they are doing with them leaves a lot to be desired .

The RFL could distribute them a little more fairly and then there might be some suitable replacements for the many SL failures.

It depends what is classed as 'a little more fairly' - there is a very valid argument that the money going to the 15 shareholders (the 14 clubs plus the RFL) is fair.

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Firstly the SKY money was not provided to benefit the amateur game, but if you mean through payments to junior clubs for players then the problem of ripping them off was around long before SL, but there we go. Blame SL for everything.

You and others have said SL saved the game. Now you saying it didnt as Sky money was not provided to benefit the amateur game. So you talk more rubbish as normal. SL didnt save the game of Rugby League as you have just said. The amateur game would have still carried on anyway. SL and Sky likely saved a few pro clubs from going under but even then it didnt save the pro game as no doub it could have carried on although on less money. I havent blamed SL for everything-thats just your wild imagination again where you make things up what others are alleged to have posted. But thats how you roll making up things and only answering certain things.

A quick look at the amateur leagues especially junior leagues shows the wealth of people in SL areas who form and administer clubs, and the wealth of young players who join and go on to become professionals. The vast majority of professionals today come from Superleague areas, places where loads more people go watch their local SL club then go form or get involved or get their kids involved at the local club.

You really have little idea about how most people get playing the game or be involved as can be seen how you view things. Most kids get involved through either friends and family or vis Development Officers going in to Schools etc and introducing the game. Why is their a large number of kids playing the game in Halifax, Heavy Woolen area, Oldham, Cumbria, Hemel Hempstead, Telford? Oh it must be the local SL team they watch! Seriously you have no idea on how important such things as how important the role of development officers are and how they bring the game to kids.

Still it must be a mirage before my very eyes the adults and kids enthused by the Rhinos, and the new clubs that have formed on the back of that, for according to you there's no correlation whatsoever between the success of the senior game in an area and the amateur game, which flies flat in the face of the analysis.
I didnt say there is no correlation that is once again you making things up as usual. I said MOST people play because of Family and Friends or from development officers going in to the school or running a camp etc. Are you now trying to say SL now makes most kids watch the game and play? Why do you have to lie and make things up what people said I dont know. Maybe its to think you know best.
All those clubs in York Doncaster Rochdale Swinton and Sheffield springing up with kids queuing up to play thanks to development officers, my what powers of persuasion they must have........

Are you saying the role of development officers is not worth it? Have a look at how Development officers in London, Telford, Wales, North East etc have helped both open age and junior teams to be formed and work with clubs in running things. I would bet a good 75% of clubs outside the heartlands were setup directly or indirectly due to a development officer. And kids do play Rugby League in Sheffield, York etc and much of that development has been made through development officers. Your ignorance is an insult to people who have contributed much to the game and its growth.

"Where do you think Rugby League would be today if the game had rejected the SKY offer of millions of pounds a year to stage an elite competition"

Well there would still be a semi pro game with maybe the same clubs but paying out less money. The amateur, youth and student game would still be where it is. There would still be internationals and maybe it would be better with closer games and cooperation against France and Wales etc. Australia doesnt care about Internationals anyway and cant even be bothered to play this year. SL saved or helped one small section of the game. It didnt save the game as you keep posting. But even then its not the clubs that have benefitted most its the players and the agents.

Maybe your next post could be done without making up something or thinking what people have put.

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Well there would still be a semi pro game with maybe the same clubs but paying out less money. The amateur, youth and student game would still be where it is. There would still be internationals and maybe it would be better with closer games and cooperation against France and Wales etc. Australia doesnt care about Internationals anyway and cant even be bothered to play this year. SL saved or helped one small section of the game. It didnt save the game as you keep posting. But even then its not the clubs that have benefitted most its the players and the agents.

Maybe your next post could be done without making up something or thinking what people have put.

The way things are going, if they don't solve SL's financial problems soon, they will be reverting to semi pro or die.

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You may note that you will see very few posts from fans of SL clubs that split the game out as SL vs Championship. The only posts I see on this kind of theme is from some fans of some Championship clubs who seem to have a real hatred of the SL.

Whilst it may be understandable to an extent, I have read many posts from people stating that they never watch Sooper Dooper League (or similar) and criticise everything about it, when there is pretty much no animosity the other way. This 'split' is a one way argument in my experience, where fans of SL clubs are dismissed as not proper fans much of the time, with some people ignoring what these people do to support the game.

Sorry, I think you are giving a blinkered view there. On this forum and others there are many disparaging or patronising posts from fans of SL clubs about Championship clubs, mainly I would suggest through a lack of knowledge of the Championships by many SL fans.

By it's very nature of being the "elite" division of the game SL is something that most Championship club fans see in newspapers, magazines, on TV, and therefore know quite a lot about the various clubs and their players, etc. On the other hand SL club fans struggle to know much about Championship clubs or who their players are, etc, and, unless it has some relevance on their clubs affairs, couldn't care less. So in my book it's not a one way thing and the perceived (by Championship club fans) closed shop that SL club fans jealously fight to safeguard is one area where this comes out most.

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Sorry, I think you are giving a blinkered view there. On this forum and others there are many disparaging or patronising posts from fans of SL clubs about Championship clubs, mainly I would suggest through a lack of knowledge of the Championships by many SL fans.

By it's very nature of being the "elite" division of the game SL is something that most Championship club fans see in newspapers, magazines, on TV, and therefore know quite a lot about the various clubs and their players, etc. On the other hand SL club fans struggle to know much about Championship clubs or who their players are, etc, and, unless it has some relevance on their clubs affairs, couldn't care less. So in my book it's not a one way thing and the perceived (by Championship club fans) closed shop that SL club fans jealously fight to safeguard is one area where this comes out most.

Happy to be proved wrong - I have seen very few negative comments about the Championship from fans of SL clubs. I have seen hundreds the other way.

There are plenty of fans of SL clubs who also attend Championship games, play themselves, coach, invest money etc. yet because they support a SL club their views are easily dismissed, which interestingly is pretty much what you did above!

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