Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Hornetto

Salford Trouble/Salford Takeover

542 posts in this topic

1. And the fact that they want to keep spending that amount instead of spending what they can afford has got a large number of them into their present precarious financial status, including Salford.

2. After you have posted at length about no self repecting investor will ever touch CC clubs, even though Fev have proved you colossally wrong, now its easier for CC clubs to survive because they manage their books and SL don't.

1. the point is ALL clubs have that tendency to spend what they cannot afford, usually because if they don't do that they can end up going the other way something I have suggested many many times with Fax as a great example and Bulls too when crowds nearly halved. If clubs cut costs the crowds don't come.

It's very very simple but "whoooosh" over your head because it doesn't suit.

You single out SL clubs for a criticism that can be levelled at all club........Bias.

2. Whooosh - Fev lose money every year dontcha know and Fev haven't proved anything but I hope they get their chance to do some old fashioned proving in SL 2015.

Again you single out a loss making CC club as a Paragon of virtue......Bias

Care to dig the hole deeper?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, if it can be done in London, the post stating that there is potential to develop RL In Wythenshaw, which wasn't me as I am not even sure where Wythenshaw is, cannot be just rubbished as being impratctical and un doable. The evidence is many parts of the UK is that it can be done. If it can be done in London, Wales and the midlands, why cannot it not be done in a suburb of Manchester.

There's 80,000+ people in Wythenshawe

There's 8,000,000+ people in London.

London is 100 times bigger and so has been able to provide enough interest in the game for some London junior clubs to spring up. There's people who come from RL areas both at home and abroad in London too. London also has a history of RL from when Great Britain played at Chelsea and of course the 1930's London club and SARLA. etc etc. Then of course Fulham stirred interest as did London Broncos etc etc (Yes I know London Broncos has nothing to do with RL at any other level in London and yes you know I think that patently absurd)

Wythenshawe is Sale and RU country with no history of RL but I am sure that if a development officer beavered away long enough he may get a few schools playing I suppose.

You have again dived in without looking at some facts, and realities.

Yes we are very strong RL wise per head of population in places like Leeds (1864) Hull (1865) Wigan (1873) etc but we will never be that strong in any new area like erm "Withenshawe". History has timed us out and soccer rules the roost, and playing rugby is something that has been in decline as the modern world evolves.

Therefore to take the game to new areas we need to develop it across whole areas like London and the south east, South Wales, the North East etc. That's the only way we can get enough resources for a toe hold in new areas.

You may read your history books but you don't seem to have a think about it all, you just dive back at me and declare me wrong, so when it comes to us "going into business together" then in the immortal words of Dragon's Den....

I'm out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know it maybe pedantic but the players for Crusaders who were deported had the right visas for when the team played in the SL, just not in the years in NL1& 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1. the point is ALL clubs have that tendency to spend what they cannot afford, usually because if they don't do that they can end up going the other way something I have suggested many many times with Fax as a great example and Bulls too when crowds nearly halved. If clubs cut costs the crowds don't come.

It's very very simple but "whoooosh" over your head because it doesn't suit.

You single out SL clubs for a criticism that can be levelled at all club........Bias.

2. Whooosh - Fev lose money every year dontcha know and Fev haven't proved anything but I hope they get their chance to do some old fashioned proving in SL 2015.

Again you single out a loss making CC club as a Paragon of virtue......Bias

Care to dig the hole deeper?

!

1. Yeah and if they don't cut costs, they end up like the Bulls, Wakefield and Salford. Whoosh.!

2. I didn'y say they didn't make a loss. I said that they have attracted considerable sponsorship even though, according to your claims, no such thing is possible for a CC club as sponsors only consider Sooper Doopwer league clubs when looking to support RL.

3. Chance would be a fine thing for Fev. It might even be next season of Salford can't sort out their mess and Sky still demand a 14 club competiton. It's an ill wind etc etc

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not sure where the Wythenshawe debate came from, but the idea that a statistically significant number of people from there don their Barbour jackets and go to watch Sale is hilarious. Totally different worlds.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's 80,000+ people in Wythenshawe

There's 8,000,000+ people in London.

London is 100 times bigger and so has been able to provide enough interest in the game for some London junior clubs to spring up. There's people who come from RL areas both at home and abroad in London too. London also has a history of RL from when Great Britain played at Chelsea and of course the 1930's London club and SARLA. etc etc. Then of course Fulham stirred interest as did London Broncos etc etc (Yes I know London Broncos has nothing to do with RL at any other level in London and yes you know I think that patently absurd)

Wythenshawe is Sale and RU country with no history of RL but I am sure that if a development officer beavered away long enough he may get a few schools playing I suppose.

You have again dived in without looking at some facts, and realities.

Yes we are very strong RL wise per head of population in places like Leeds (1864) Hull (1865) Wigan (1873) etc but we will never be that strong in any new area like erm "Withenshawe". History has timed us out and soccer rules the roost, and playing rugby is something that has been in decline as the modern world evolves.

Therefore to take the game to new areas we need to develop it across whole areas like London and the south east, South Wales, the North East etc. That's the only way we can get enough resources for a toe hold in new areas.

You may read your history books but you don't seem to have a think about it all, you just dive back at me and declare me wrong, so when it comes to us "going into business together" then in the immortal words of Dragon's Den....

I'm out.

I didn't propose Wythenshaw. It was another poster who , I would seriously suspect, has more knowledge of the area than me or you. What you propose just files in the face or reality. The evidence is that REL can infiltrate any area of the country and sustain amateur RL, including I would image, Wythenshaw, sale RU or no sale RU. Indeed thr RFL should look at targetting the whole of the Manchester conurbation. It once was fertile ground for RL bjut is regressing seriously.

Coventry were once the pride of English Ru and had a 1st Division soccer club to boot. According to your theories, any chance for RL to grow and develop there had flown the coop years ago. But, hey presto, there are several amateur RL clubs in Coventry, some with juniors, and there will be a CC1 club there next year.

The same goes for Gloucester and Hemel. For goodness sake they are even going to play RL at that holy of holies the Oxford Universty RU ground and pay the players for doing it to boot.

Quoting the fractured and tortuous pre RU ban history of RL in London does not support your argument that RL can only develop in places with a long history of RL. RL has only been a part of the London scene since the 1960's at the very earliest and in any numbers since the 1990s. I might as well claim there is a serious Rl presence in Edinburgh because Wigan, Gateshead and the Magic weekend and Cup final have been played there.

Those people who think they are right all the time are particularly annoying to those of us who are. :D . Seriously though, I have just as much right to contest your opinions if I think you are wrong as you have and continously do, to contest my ideas.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Leigh in trouble, Bramley Blackpool and Huyton gone, rochdale and york closed, swinton and hunslet shadows of their former selves. Oldham disaster.

More of the wonderful breathtaking success stories of semi professional Rugby ;)

Bramley, Blackpool Huyton (Runcorn) all shafted by the architect of Super League! It is licensing that's depressing the crowds at sides like Salford. As my friend the Salford fan was saying on Thursday, who's going to turn out and pay good money to watch a meaningless game? A game on which nothing rides?

Since those in favour of lincensing argue that it eliminates risk, lets eliminate it altogether, the RFL could employ a body similar to the old "pools panel" to decide the results of games. We could get rid of the players, the stadiums the lot! Just let Sky charge us to watch the results come in on their network. Problem solved!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Doesn't seem like many people were bothering with Runcorn (and variants thereof) regardless of any SL or not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Doesn't seem like many people were bothering with Runcorn (and variants thereof) regardless of any SL or not.

They once pulled in a five figure crowd for a playoff game when they were in Liverpool pre WW11 but it couldn't be sustained. They went to London and got some decent crowds but that couldn't be sustained either. By the time the end came, It was time to go, no ground, no fans, no hope. Now there was a team who would have really benefitted from a feeder team deal playing as say Widnes A in Runcorn or some such arrangement.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The RFL should look at targetting the whole of the Manchester conurbation. It once was fertile ground for RL bjut is regressing seriously.

Of course they should, this was a job for the proposed merged Manchester club, and post refusal to merge became the task of Salford, if Salford wither what resources will be left to do this, to what purpose????

Why has the area regressed????

Wythenshaw was a red herring.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As my friend the Salford fan was saying on Thursday, who's going to turn out and pay good money to watch a meaningless game? A game on which nothing rides?

League express finally dealt with that myth after it was dealt with on here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Of course they should, this was a job for the proposed merged Manchester club, and post refusal to merge became the task of Salford, if Salford wither what resources will be left to do this, to what purpose????

Why has the area regressed????

Wythenshaw was a red herring.

It might have been a red herring but it wasn';t thrown by me.

I can tell you how RL in Manchester has regressed. In my lifetime there have been four senior RL teams in Manchester, Broughton/ Belle Vue, Oldham, Salford and Swinton. When I started watching RL in the early 60s, Belle Vue were already gone, having failed to find a suitable ground and having moved far away from their roots in Broughton.

Oldham were a big deal, always in the top part of the league, champions at one point, numerous internationals in their ranks, decent crowds and their own ground at Watersheddings. They could never quite keep up with Wigan and and Saints and they slowly declined even with several periods of success interspersed with the poorer years. They were in several CC semi finals but could never quite make the breakthrough and have never played at Wembley, more's the pity as I think a Cup win would have done wonders for their support. They made the inaugral SL but went bust after the first season ( I think) Although Watersheddings was theirs it needed major work and they sold it to pay their debts but went under anyway. Chris Hamilton resurrected them they went on a trek through Southern Lancashire searching for a ground, losing CC finals with monotonous regularity and gradually losing many of their specatators who had rallied to the cause on their initial reformation. They have gone through several financial crises usually owing the IRS back taxes and being shafted by Oldham Athletic but have survived and are finally showing some small signs of life, having finally moved into their own ground back in Oldham and are hoping to upgrade it and win promotion this coming season. Why did they decline, you ask?. I think they were no different from many of the clubs in the 60s, 70 s, 80s and 90 s in that they were part of the general decline and malaise that affected the whole game. Other teams were in dire straights too but managed to find investors or had better management whereas Oldham didn't and I think their failure to win any major Cup or Championship didn't help their cause either. That is just my take on it and I might be completely wrong.

Swinton were also one of the big clubs. They had a massive, test match sized ground at Station Road and were Div 1 champions twice on the trot in the 1960's averaging around 6,000 per home game. they too had a team full of internationals at that time. Station road was also decaying and needed major improvements and was too big for their crowds in any case. They tried to stay with the elite clubs but, again, as with Oldham, despite several better seasons, gradually declined and eventually sold off the ground to pay debts and moved out of their home town to Bury and have never found a home ground since being currently at Leigh. Once they left Swinton, any residual support melted away. I can't comment on their management but I think it made several big mistakes and there was no investor to bail them out. Hopefully the new proposed ground at Agecroft will come to fruition and they will, at least stay in CC and build their crowds to a decent level.

Salford were the weakest of the lot. They had never been anything since the late 1930's but stayed in the league. I remember going there to watch Keighley in our promotion season of 1962 and Salford were in the bottom four of the second division. They never lost the ground however and Brian Snape and later John Wilkinson put money into the club and they became a big deal glamour club with an all star team, a night club on site and were quite the pin up boys of the league and their crowds refelected that. Somehow they also declined from that pinnacle and had good and bad years but Wilkinson never left them and financed them a lot. They have finally lost their stadium at the Willows on the hope of a resurrection at the City of Salford ground but I think the rent there is a major factor in their present financial crisis with the gates never rising to the 8,000 they needed to make ends meet.

You Ask why though and I am at a loss. The one constant amongst all four teams is that on loss of their grounds they almost went belly up. Not staying near their roots was another factor in the decline of their support also with the exception of Salford. Maybe the inexorable rise of Manchester United from big to mega also impacted on the Manchester RL clubs. I don't know, that just a guess.

Salford are salvageable. They are in SL. They have a new stadium. Maybe the rent can be reduced. Let s hope they find a new investor?

Swinton are worth saving. They have a long and glorious history and I think they could be a decent community focussed CC club if they can get their ground situation sorted.

Oldham is much bigger than Swinton. They are somwhat isolated on the eastern side of Manchester. They have potential in my opinion but have a very long row to hoe before they can realise it.

You ask to what purpose should we try to salvage RL in Manchester. There is still a legacy for the game in the city. we should not let it die. Manchester is a media mecca. the game needs a presence there. I have read post from you before championing the big city concept for the game. Well, they don't come much bigger than Manchester. It's worth fighting for. The game cannot afford the geographical footprint of the still important heartlands to shrink any more. A strong club or two clubs in Manchester with a growing junior development is just as important as London. Does the game have the resources to do this? I don't know but it should take a serious look at the situation. Contraction is never good.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Excuse my ignorance but did Salford own the Willows when they moved?

Have they now sold it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don’t understand your post in any practical way whatsoever?

Apologies, I was trying to say that no one really has tried in any organised way to develop rugby league in Manchester and also to demonstrate that rugby league isn't about having a prior knowledge of the sport, but athletic ability.

With 3/4 Million people inside the M60, are we honestly saying that it's impossible to find rugby league players from this area?

I read your post about Wythenshawe being 'Sale' Territory. Wythenshawe has almost the same demographic profile of Wigan and Castleford and is a million miles away from a 'typical' Sale fan. A typical Sale fan by the way, earns 44K per year.

I stand by my assertion that no one has ever really tried to develop rugby league in Manchester in a co-ordinated, professional manner. The small amount of uncoordinated development that does happen rapidly bears fruit, which is very encouraging.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Steady, their children Scorpions and North Wales Crusaders may be listening.

And they'd no doubt agree.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can tell you how RL in Manchester has regressed. You Ask why though and I am at a loss. The one constant amongst all four teams is that on loss of their grounds they almost went belly up. Not staying near their roots was another factor in the decline of their support also with the exception of Salford. Maybe the inexorable rise of Manchester United from big to mega also impacted on the Manchester RL clubs.

You ask to what purpose should we try to salvage RL in Manchester. There is still a legacy for the game in the city. we should not let it die. Manchester is a media mecca. the game needs a presence there.

See below....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Apologies, I was trying to say that no one really has tried in any organised way to develop rugby league in Manchester in a co-ordinated, professional manner. The small amount of uncoordinated development that does happen rapidly bears fruit, which is very encouraging.

Both you and Keighley feel there should be a co-ordinated and well resourced push to develop Manchester for Rugby League.

You advocate this despite the game going from being big in the conurbation to literally dying out over a long agonising decline.

I think it would be fantastic if a massive and sustained development push was made.

Now can either of you tell me where the resources to do this will come from and why Manchester should have those resources over other areas that could be developed instead???

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Hidden by John Drake, December 16, 2012 - Off topic personal attacks

Both you and Keighley feel there should be a co-ordinated and well resourced push to develop Manchester for Rugby League.

You advocate this despite the game going from being big in the conurbation to literally dying out over a long agonising decline.

I think it would be fantastic if a massive and sustained development push was made.

Now can either of you tell me where the resources to do this will come from and why Manchester should have those resources over other areas that could be developed instead???

Both you and Keighley feel there should be a co-ordinated and well resourced push to develop Manchester for Rugby League.

You advocate this despite the game going from being big in the conurbation to literally dying out over a long agonising decline.

I think it would be fantastic if a massive and sustained development push was made.

Now can either of you tell me where the resources to do this will come from and why Manchester should have those resources over other areas that could be developed instead???

Both you and Keighley feel there should be a co-ordinated and well resourced push to develop Manchester for Rugby League.

You advocate this despite the game going from being big in the conurbation to literally dying out over a long agonising decline.

I think it would be fantastic if a massive and sustained development push was made.

Now can either of you tell me where the resources to do this will come from and why Manchester should have those resources over other areas that could be developed instead???

When you put ?????????????? does that make the question more relevant ???????

Share this post


Link to post

Posted · Hidden by John Drake, December 16, 2012 - Off topic personal attacks

When you put ?????????????? does that make the question more relevant ???????

When you quote me three times does that make your point three times as relevant????, in fact do you have a point????

In fact can you even answer my question???????????

Do you even have anything to say on the subject itself??????

Share this post


Link to post

Posted · Hidden by John Drake, December 16, 2012 - Off topic personal attacks

I'm out.

Really????

Your credibility decreases the more your post count increases when you make a statement like that.

Share this post


Link to post

Posted · Hidden by John Drake, December 16, 2012 - Off topic personal attacks

Your credibility decreases the more your post count increases when you make a statement like that.

My credibility is a matter of personal opinion.

You are not the self styled judge of credibility.

This is a forum for debate, personal attacks are not debate, and the last time we exchanged posts you got in a huff and announced you would not debate the issue any further.

Now you seem to be back just to have a personal go at me

Share this post


Link to post

Posted · Hidden by John Drake, December 16, 2012 - Off topic personal attacks

Another thread ruined by The Parksider. Great.

Share this post


Link to post

Posted · Hidden by John Drake, December 16, 2012 - Off topic personal attacks

Another thread ruined by The Parksider. Great.

Another personal attack, that's what is ruining it. Still sore after I reported you for the nasty way you ruined a thread. Grow up Wellsy.

Share this post


Link to post

No one really has tried in any organised way to develop rugby league in Manchester

Back to the debate and away from the childish personal stuff...................

You can check out the Salford Rugby League Foundation. As a Superleague club they are expected through their license to try to develop the game in the area and they do target the Manchester conurbation. Red Willow kindly explained the work they do with schools to me and I think you will find they have been into Wythenshawe.

You will also find that in direct competition the Union clubs in Manchester equally have development programmes going and they too have been to Wythenshawe. Which way most kid in Wythenshawe are pulled is most obvious from the District Junior soccer leagues. The vast majority of kids in Wythenshawe are happy with soccer something they will have grown up kicking a ball in the back garden with dad, watching City and United battle it out on telly with dad, and that first united/city shirt he bought them

If Salford Reds end up a championship club this aspect of the club will be lost and Rugby League may continue to be a tiny minority sport upheld by such amateur beacons as Eccles, Mayfield and St.Annes. For the kids there will always be United and City, I was going to say Sale but they too are struggling.

The returns on resources can be scant for RL development,. In my area Leeds United held a soccer camp and about 200 kids came and they played lots of soccer including the girls. Then the Rhinos had a camp of about 40 kids and most were girls doing cheerleading. The lads played touch and pass etc.

Behind the scenes where people don’t always look, Superleague is a vehicle for RL development and it is successful as far as it can be in a minority sport. Going back to Semi-pro would lose all that but obviously would fulfil the personal dreams of some of our old timers on here. Losing Salford would make RL development in Manchester too tough to perhaps contemplate, unless sport England are paying?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Both you and Keighley feel there should be a co-ordinated and well resourced push to develop Manchester for Rugby League.

You advocate this despite the game going from being big in the conurbation to literally dying out over a long agonising decline.

I think it would be fantastic if a massive and sustained development push was made.

Now can either of you tell me where the resources to do this will come from and why Manchester should have those resources over other areas that could be developed instead???

I think we should look at the success of London's amateur scene and see if there are any lessons, or game plans there.They went from nothing in an hostile environment to where they are today. There may be some lessons to be learned. Soccer is just massive there but the game has prevailed nevertheless.

I know funding from sport England has been cut but any money available for development officers should fund at least a couple for the whole of Manchester. They seem to have done exceptional work in the rest of the UK in kick starting or restarting RL development.

BARLA used to be visionary and expansionary in their outlook. Can they assist. The amateur teams we do have should be encouraged to run junior teams. There are several in Oldham, several more in Rochdale and at least three I can think of in Salford/Swinton What happened to the Broughton Rangers re incarnation as a junior club to encourage kids in that area,.Is it still functioning.?.

The schools competition has been successful for introducing thousands of children to out game throughout the UK. Is there any way to keep some of these children interested by running summer teams. Maybe we could find some dedicated teachers who would be prepared to help.

As you say, if Salford retain their SL status, they should make a renewed effort to support amateur/junior RL in their catchment area. Player visits to schools, free tickets to their new stadium for children, funding a development officer. They might be able to do a better job in this area if they find a really cashed up saviour. let's hope so.

Even the CC clubs, Swinton if they get back to their town and Oldham should be focal points for the amateur and youth teams in their area and help them with player visits, school visits and the like. I think Keighley run some such scheme and they have no money either.

Parksider, a fully professional SL can do lots of things and can be both a magnet and a catylyst for amateur growth. I don't want it to return to semi pro, but semi pro is preferable to extinction. Fully pro needs to be more stable and not be running into these constant financial meltdowns at numerous different clubs. If they don't plug the leaks, that ship will sink.

These are just some random thoughts on the subject of the re engaging of the Manchester public with out game.

The RFL should have long been looking at the decline of the game in Manchester as a serious problem and addressing it. The amateur game seems to be at a crossroads at the moment and they need to pay some attention or we will contract at that level. They need to put some resources into stabilising and expanding our amateur base including Manchester. Maybe the RLWC will be a huge success and give them some funds to make a start. Just a thought.

These failures can be reversed. When I started playing junior rugby a long time ago, the whole amateur game in the heartlands was down to a small fraction of what it had been and was dying from neglect from the governing body. BARLA, for all their later insularity, were formed and turned the whole amateur scene around, growing the number of teams exponentialy and saved the amateur game and maybe the pro game also in the process.

I think there will always be kids who are attracted to our game if we give them the opprtunity. We will never match soccer in popularity but there are plenty of young kids to work with, just look at our growth in London, where soccer is King.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.



League Express - Mon 10th April 2017

Rugby League World - April 2017