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Hornetto

Salford Trouble/Salford Takeover

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I think we should look at the success of London's amateur scene and see if there are any lessons, or game plans there.They went from nothing in an hostile environment to where they are today. There may be some lessons to be learned. Soccer is just massive there but the game has prevailed nevertheless.

I know funding from sport England has been cut but any money available for development officers should fund at least a couple for the whole of Manchester. They seem to have done exceptional work in the rest of the UK in kick starting or restarting RL development.

BARLA used to be visionary and expansionary in their outlook. Can they assist. The amateur teams we do have should be encouraged to run junior teams. There are several in Oldham, several more in Rochdale and at least three I can think of in Salford/Swinton What happened to the Broughton Rangers re incarnation as a junior club to encourage kids in that area,.Is it still functioning.?.

The schools competition has been successful for introducing thousands of children to out game throughout the UK. Is there any way to keep some of these children interested by running summer teams. Maybe we could find some dedicated teachers who would be prepared to help.

As you say, if Salford retain their SL status, they should make a renewed effort to support amateur/junior RL in their catchment area. Player visits to schools, free tickets to their new stadium for children, funding a development officer. They might be able to do a better job in this area if they find a really cashed up saviour. let's hope so.

Even the CC clubs, Swinton if they get back to their town and Oldham should be focal points for the amateur and youth teams in their area and help them with player visits, school visits and the like. I think Keighley run some such scheme and they have no money either.

Parksider, a fully professional SL can do lots of things and can be both a magnet and a catylyst for amateur growth. I don't want it to return to semi pro, but semi pro is preferable to extinction. Fully pro needs to be more stable and not be running into these constant financial meltdowns at numerous different clubs. If they don't plug the leaks, that ship will sink.

These are just some random thoughts on the subject of the re engaging of the Manchester public with out game.

The RFL should have long been looking at the decline of the game in Manchester as a serious problem and addressing it. The amateur game seems to be at a crossroads at the moment and they need to pay some attention or we will contract at that level. They need to put some resources into stabilising and expanding our amateur base including Manchester. Maybe the RLWC will be a huge success and give them some funds to make a start. Just a thought.

These failures can be reversed. When I started playing junior rugby a long time ago, the whole amateur game in the heartlands was down to a small fraction of what it had been and was dying from neglect from the governing body. BARLA, for all their later insularity, were formed and turned the whole amateur scene around, growing the number of teams exponentialy and saved the amateur game and maybe the pro game also in the process.

I think there will always be kids who are attracted to our game if we give them the opprtunity. We will never match soccer in popularity but there are plenty of young kids to work with, just look at our growth in London, where soccer is King.

Great post there Mr. K.

Debate nicely back on track, after the thread wreckers interventions :lol:

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It will be interesting to see what the club have to say at our supporters meeting tomorrow night. I hope they have some plans and also the stance of the RFL towards us if we fail.

My bet is it will be a load of bullish optimism and little of substance. But maybe not. If they ask for fans to start collecting we can be sure the end is nigh :rolleyes: - The fact it is off season is making things a lot worse as there is no income. If there was a home game the supporters trust could ask all our fans to contribute to a fund to re-start the club if it folds - but it is going to be standing outside supermarkets with buckets at this rate.

I think if we don't get some "miracle" buyer next week, the game will be up for us ...

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It will be interesting to see what the club have to say at our supporters meeting tomorrow night. I hope they have some plans and also the stance of the RFL towards us if we fail.

My bet is it will be a load of bullish optimism and little of substance. But maybe not. If they ask for fans to start collecting we can be sure the end is nigh :rolleyes: - The fact it is off season is making things a lot worse as there is no income. If there was a home game the supporters trust could ask all our fans to contribute to a fund to re-start the club if it folds - but it is going to be standing outside supermarkets with buckets at this rate.

I think if we don't get some "miracle" buyer next week, the game will be up for us ...

Are you going? It would be great to know first hand what is said and what you think?

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Are you going? It would be great to know first hand what is said and what you think?

I have to work 1400 to 2200 tomorrow, which is a shame, but as a member of the trust I should get a full report and I will happily share this.

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Excuse my ignorance but did Salford own the Willows when they moved?

Have they now sold it?

???

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???

No - it had to be sold and is now demollished. I believe all the money went to plan, build & move to new stadium - it went wrong - council + Peel got it built, but we now have no money or ground and lost cash flow from advertising etc...

WE were told new stadium was requisite for staying in SL - I wish is wasn't so as it has killed us off.

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its not a hard question.....did salford own the williows? and if they did wheres the money from it?

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No - it had to be sold and is now demollished. I believe all the money went to plan, build & move to new stadium - it went wrong - council + Peel got it built, but we now have no money or ground and lost cash flow from advertising etc...

WE were told new stadium was requisite for staying in SL - I wish is wasn't so as it has killed us off.

I don't think the saga is as simple as your last sentence suggests. I only have my own suspicions, but I think the rot began about 30 years ago when the club was slow to realise the need for investment. The ground rotted around us and its maintenance ate into the reserves. By the time it was sold, the ownership had already passed out of the club's hands into some kind of holding company. I also heard that the club wasted a lot of money on a series of feasibility studies and plans which never came to fruition. The team couldn't compete in SL, but could hold its own in the leagues before that, because there were weaker sides around.

So, while I don't disagree that the ground requirement for SL eventually killed us off, it was merely the final straw. Where did the money go? Who knows? I can't read balance sheets and track down the ins and outs, so I don't have the answer. My best guess is that The Willows was used as collateral for a loan and so passed into the hands of someone who then made a killing on its sale. Pure speculation, though!

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Posted · Hidden by John Drake, December 16, 2012 - Personal stuff

Another personal attack, that's what is ruining it. Still sore after I reported you for the nasty way you ruined a thread. Grow up Wellsy.

How can I be sore about something I didn't know happened? Perhaps the moderators didn't agree with you...

What's ruined this thread is post after post of leading and provocative questions that drag people into such petty arguments that it results in story-length posts that the vast majority isn't even about the subject anymore. I don't have the time or the patience to keep up with what's going on here and I guess I'm not the only one.

It would be good to know what's actually happening with this Salford trouble/takeover. Can anyone summarise what the current situation is?

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. Can anyone summarise what the current situation is?

Vigorously treading water by the sound of things, as people frantically work on a solution.

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Posted · Hidden by John Drake, December 16, 2012 - Off topic personal attacks

How can I be sore about something I didn't know happened? Perhaps the moderators didn't agree with you...

Perhaps they removed your childish nasty little post.

You've got your degree and your business (good luck with it BTW, if it was close to me I'd bring my car to you) next step will be maturity.

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Several posts removed for off topic personal attacks. Cut it out.

Stay on topic, or stay silent.

If you spot a problem, here or in any other thread, report it, don't respond to it. You just make matters worse.

Thank you.

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Oldham were a big deal, always in the top part of the league, champions at one point, numerous internationals in their ranks, decent crowds and their own ground at Watersheddings.

95/95 d1 10th

93/94 d1 13th

92/93 d2 2nd

91/92 d2 3rd

90/91 d1 12th

89/90 d2 3rd

88/89 d1 12th

87/88 d2 1st

86/87 d1 13th

85/86 d1 9th

84/85 d1 5th

83/84 d1 10th

82/83 d1 8th

81/82 d2 1st

80/81 d1 16th

Need I go on?

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95/95 d1 10th

93/94 d1 13th

92/93 d2 2nd

91/92 d2 3rd

90/91 d1 12th

89/90 d2 3rd

88/89 d1 12th

87/88 d2 1st

86/87 d1 13th

85/86 d1 9th

84/85 d1 5th

83/84 d1 10th

82/83 d1 8th

81/82 d2 1st

80/81 d1 16th

Need I go on?

stop dealing in facts.

Certain posters here are simply stupid.

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95/95 d1 10th

93/94 d1 13th

92/93 d2 2nd

91/92 d2 3rd

90/91 d1 12th

89/90 d2 3rd

88/89 d1 12th

87/88 d2 1st

86/87 d1 13th

85/86 d1 9th

84/85 d1 5th

83/84 d1 10th

82/83 d1 8th

81/82 d2 1st

80/81 d1 16th

Need I go on?

Yes,clever d##k, you need to go on. I am talkimg about the1950 s and 60s before the decline of he Manchester sides started. That was what I was responding to. In those decades Oldham were a top team. They won the championship, they got to a cup semi final losing 12 to 9 to Hull. They had Ike Southward, Alan Davies Frank Pitchford, Bernard Ganley etc in their team. Prio to that throughout the history of the game they were a top side. The decline started in the 80s and90 s as your brilliantly researced post showed. If you read what I wrote which was only an opinion piece anyway you would have picked up on that.

As I said gthey had occasioanal resurgences as when they put Wigan out of the cup but overall the graph was on a downwards curve.

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stop dealing in facts.

Certain posters here are simply stupid.

Et Tu Brute. See post#263

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I have to work 1400 to 2200 tomorrow, which is a shame, but as a member of the trust I should get a full report and I will happily share this.

Thank you....

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I am talking about the1950 s and 60s before the decline of he Manchester sides started.

It would be a fascinating study that looked at how the game was post war when the clubs thrived on big crowds, taking us through the various pressures on it like the advent of TV in the 1950's, the alarming decline in popularity in the 60's, the rise of BARLA in the seventies, and the creating of permanent two tier pro game through to the eighties, the rise of both player and fan mobility, and the path to professionalisation in the nineties, the pressures from pro RU & rich soccer, and the sustenance of the SKY contract in the noughties.

With my history hat on and no bias whatsoever my gut feeling is the Oldhams and Salfords and Rochdales and Swintons are only sustainable as one team semi pro clubs under the conditions we have today. there's no turning the clock back. Yes there is interest in Rugby league in the manchester area and the way it will be harvested is those top class players who are developed will find a top class club as they do like Leeds or Warrington, those fans who love their RL played at top level will find a top class club to watch as they do getting in their cars and on the train to such as Wigan.

If Salford are not rescued Manchester may not be lost to the game, the big clubs like Saints, Wigan and Warrington may well look to move in, having said that given the recent link ups it would seem they are already there. If anyone looks to develop places like Rochdale or Swinton it will be Saints or Warrington, for the benefit of Saints and Warrington and not for the recreation of the 1950's.

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It would be a fascinating study that looked at how the game was post war when the clubs thrived on big crowds, taking us through the various pressures on it like the advent of TV in the 1950's, the alarming decline in popularity in the 60's, the rise of BARLA in the seventies, and the creating of permanent two tier pro game through to the eighties, the rise of both player and fan mobility, and the path to professionalisation in the nineties, the pressures from pro RU & rich soccer, and the sustenance of the SKY contract in the noughties.

With my history hat on and no bias whatsoever my gut feeling is the Oldhams and Salfords and Rochdales and Swintons are only sustainable as one team semi pro clubs under the conditions we have today. there's no turning the clock back. Yes there is interest in Rugby league in the manchester area and the way it will be harvested is those top class players who are developed will find a top class club as they do like Leeds or Warrington, those fans who love their RL played at top level will find a top class club to watch as they do getting in their cars and on the train to such as Wigan.

If Salford are not rescued Manchester may not be lost to the game, the big clubs like Saints, Wigan and Warrington may well look to move in, having said that given the recent link ups it would seem they are already there. If anyone looks to develop places like Rochdale or Swinton it will be Saints or Warrington, for the benefit of Saints and Warrington and not for the recreation of the 1950's.

I think Tony Collins covered a lot of that on his books, but all those conditions existed at Wigan and Saints and elsewhere and they have survived and in some case even prospered. There has to be some reason either unique to each club or specific to Manchester.

I did not really include Rochdale in my thougts on the subject as I think they have never been a big club and never will be.

Swinton were big but their long absence from the town and the fact that Swinton itself is quite small and in the shadow of Salford precludes their return to SL levels but a decent CC level club in a new stadium in Swinton and the community and player recruitment associated with that in Swinton itself is a difficult but, I hope, achievable goal.

Oldham, I think, is a different situation to those two. Oldham is pretty much isolated and is in the eastern side of the Manchester megapolis and is a fairly large population centre. I think, and I know you disagree, but I think that there is potential and the need for a SL club in that area. Not now, not soon, but given the right management they could very well develop to the point where a SL club is feasible. It's not so much going back to the past as re inventing the club for the future due to the potential inherent in the area. Toulouse is proposed as a SL club under the same pretexts.

Salford, in fact, have achieved SL status from lesser potential than at Oldham. The difference is Wilkinson's sterling support and the fact that, until this season, they had their own ground. They are casting around for investors as I type so the jury is still out on their future but they are one of the numerous clubs for whom the fully professional status of SL at the present funding levels is not an achievable long term reality. This problem is going to have to be resolved or there will be no SL or only a very small rump competition going forward.

You have championed Wigan and Saints for the strength of their amateur game and the number of players it produces and this is true. Why then are you content to abandon a city the size of Manchester to be just a feeder area for Wigan, Wigan don't need Salford or manchester players. That's regressive and an admission of defeat. There is more potential than that lowly scenario in Manchester. If London and Widnes can come from non existence in the former case and lower to mid table mediocrity in the latter to be functioning SL clubs then so can Salford and even given the right circumstances Oldham or a couple of other Cc clubs.

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You have championed Wigan and Saints for the strength of their amateur game and the number of players it produces and this is true. Why then are you content to abandon a city the size of Manchester to be just a feeder area for Wigan, Wigan don't need Salford or manchester players. That's regressive and an admission of defeat. There is more potential than that lowly scenario in Manchester.

If London and Widnes can come from non existence in the former case and lower to mid table mediocrity in the latter to be functioning SL clubs then so can Salford and even given the right circumstances Oldham or a couple of other Cc clubs.

I don't see St. Helens and Wigan as having a strong amateur game only an amateur game stronger than smaller clubs. It wasn't that long ago London fielded a side with more British players in it than Wigan.

I don't see enough players and fans to support more than 3 maybe 4 clubs in Lancashire. Union only has one club.

I don't want to abandon anywhere, I want to see big clubs appealing beyond their town boundaries to find the 10,000+ crowds and fully home grown quality pro sides.

London would be long dead if they only drew fans and players from Twickenham, Widnes are disappointed that the fans haven't returned in large enough numbers and their junior system nearly ground to a halt in the Championships.

At the level the pro game is pitched at your right, there's only about seven areas strong enough to support a real superleague club in the north. That's why I have championed London, Wales, Gatehead, Catalans, Toulouse, but when some of these clubs can't compete due to the lack of players, fans and investment to make up for that, then you end up having to put the smaller M62 clubs back in SL who then end up fighting for the same resources their neighbours want, Hull/HKR, Widnes/wire.

An admission of defeat? Defeat in terms of what?? Trying to find resources where they don't exist, trying to get people to watch or play a game most have no interest in? Trying to do that with no money to do it with as sports England reduce funds??

Regressive?? In terms of what making the game smaller? I think we've already established Superleague is the vehicle that has made the game bigger. We have agreed that we'd like to see a 16 club Superleague in which the salary cap is pitched lower to make it affordable. No "regression" there we were expansive in our thoughts.

But if Oldham, Salford, Swinton, and Rochdale can't hack Superleague what's the point in sinking central resources into trying to boost these failing clubs. Nice idea but any resource we have for boosting the game needs spending where there is a return to be had. Many of the things you suggest clubs should do Salford DID do when they were an SL club. Many of the things my club may do they can't do as there's nobody to do it.

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I don't see St. Helens and Wigan as having a strong amateur game only an amateur game stronger than smaller clubs. It wasn't that long ago London fielded a side with more British players in it than Wigan.

I don't see enough players and fans to support more than 3 maybe 4 clubs in Lancashire. Union only has one club.

I don't want to abandon anywhere, I want to see big clubs appealing beyond their town boundaries to find the 10,000+ crowds and fully home grown quality pro sides.

London would be long dead if they only drew fans and players from Twickenham, Widnes are disappointed that the fans haven't returned in large enough numbers and their junior system nearly ground to a halt in the Championships.

At the level the pro game is pitched at your right, there's only about seven areas strong enough to support a real superleague club in the north. That's why I have championed London, Wales, Gatehead, Catalans, Toulouse, but when some of these clubs can't compete due to the lack of players, fans and investment to make up for that, then you end up having to put the smaller M62 clubs back in SL who then end up fighting for the same resources their neighbours want, Hull/HKR, Widnes/wire.

An admission of defeat? Defeat in terms of what?? Trying to find resources where they don't exist, trying to get people to watch or play a game most have no interest in? Trying to do that with no money to do it with as sports England reduce funds??

Regressive?? In terms of what making the game smaller? I think we've already established Superleague is the vehicle that has made the game bigger. We have agreed that we'd like to see a 16 club Superleague in which the salary cap is pitched lower to make it affordable. No "regression" there we were expansive in our thoughts.

But if Oldham, Salford, Swinton, and Rochdale can't hack Superleague what's the point in sinking central resources into trying to boost these failing clubs. Nice idea but any resource we have for boosting the game needs spending where there is a return to be had. Many of the things you suggest clubs should do Salford DID do when they were an SL club. Many of the things my club may do they can't do as there's nobody to do it.

London would be long gone if it weren't for Hughes. Their supporter base is so small, it's irrelevant where they come from. If an investor with pockets the size of Hughes could be found for Salford and indeed several current struggling lower level SL teams and some top CC teams, any one of them could survive ,like London have done, and in all probability get much better gates.

SL already has 5 clubs from Lancashire and all except Widnes would appear to have decent enough players.including Salford judging by the way the other SL vultures are signing them. Making progress in the amateur realm in Widnes, Salford and the rest of Manchester would enable even more players to be found. You don't seriously think Wigan and Saints and Warrington are going to go to the aid of Folly Lane, Eccles, Oldham St Annes, Langworthy, Higginshaw etc do you. Why should those clubs be left to exist for the benfit of SL clubs miles away? Spectators are drawn to successful clubs. When clubs are not successful, heir crowds plummet. Check out Wigan's 2nd division average, so if Salford were succesfull the crowds would increase. Of course there are enough spectators and players for more SL clubs in Lancashire.

You don't know resorces don't exist. You keep playing that same sad song but in the last few years, this has not been the case. Glover, Lenahagn, O'Connor, Nahaboo, Khan, Hudgell, Pearson, Hughes. Peel Holdings,Sport England have all emerged from this realm of non existence to put resources into the game.

Ther are reputed to be investors in the wings for Toulouse, the local council are upgrading Derwent Park, Premier Sports are engaged, maybe they will pay at some point, Sky seem to be in for the long haul, the Al Jazheera group are interested in French RL and then there are the various sponsors, major and minor.

So , if we downsize our expenses, tap into any further resources lurking out there, added to those listed which exist already, then maybe Salford and some others can hack it in SL. I don't think the answer to the games problems is to forever shrink the base of the game and pour money into a smaller and smaller number of bigger and bigger clubs.

The resources you talk about pouring onto those Manchester clubs would have to be generated by their own efforts. I don't know what you are talking about here, unless you want all Sport England money to go to the Leeds, Wigan, Hull and Saints juniors, because all other areas are lost ccauses.

We are going to celebrate a World Cup next year with 14 nations taking part. If your theories had been followed there would only be three teams in it, Aus, NZ and England. All the rest would have been written off because we need to focus our resources where there is a return to be had and small countries on small turnovers can't find resouces and the need is for the big three to pull back to their lairs and take all the resources for themseleves. Some tournament that would have been and some tournament a hidebound, rump SL competiton will be, not too big to fail, but too small to suceed. Strength in numbers anyone. Diversity and variety, the spice of life.

Parksider, you are a deep thinker and vastly knowledgeable about RL, but you are so pessimistic. look on the bright side occasionally. Look at things and say "Why not" instaed of "No way".

And to get back to the thread I hope Salford find a saviour.They have come too far to fall now. The game needs more not less top teams.

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Well the meeting is over - well done to the club for providing a full twitter feed. I followed at work. The full text is viewable by following the links below. The SCR one first & then Paul Mcnally for the second half as there was a tecnical fault and they changed accounts.

https://twitter.com/SalfordCityReds

https://twitter.com/iampaulmcnally

It seemed a fairly open meeting with over 700 attending apparently. In summary - we owe £350,000 and need £600,000 to start Super league in under 6 weeks or we are finished. There are no concrete investors or buyers yet. RFL are tryin to discourage fans collecting money for some reason :wacko: - what harm can boosting the Supporters Trust do? Going into Admin will be the last resort. I think we are going to be disappearing very soon ...

Read the rest yourselves for the gory details - I have had enough for now - :(

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Yes,clever d##k, you need to go on. I am talkimg about the1950 s and 60s before the decline of he Manchester sides started. That was what I was responding to. In those decades Oldham were a top team. They won the championship, they got to a cup semi final losing 12 to 9 to Hull. They had Ike Southward, Alan Davies Frank Pitchford, Bernard Ganley etc in their team. Prio to that throughout the history of the game they were a top side. The decline started in the 80s and90 s as your brilliantly researced post showed. If you read what I wrote which was only an opinion piece anyway you would have picked up on that.

As I said gthey had occasioanal resurgences as when they put Wigan out of the cup but overall the graph was on a downwards curve.

Here's the list for Oldham's 'Golden Era' of 50s and 60s

1950/51 15th

1951/52 5th

1952/53 8th

1953/54 12th

1954/55 2nd

1955/56 9th

1956/57 1st

1957/58 1st

1958/59 4th

1959/60 9th

1960/61 8th

1961/62 10th

1962/63 d1 15th

1963/64 d2 1st

1964/65 9th

1965/66 9th

1966/67 10th

1967/68 22nd

1968/69 16th

1969/70 29th

In the last 3 seasons of a single division Oldham finished 16th, 13th and 9th.

Post WWII until 1950 their highest was 8th and lowest 23rd.

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1. You don't know resorces don't exist. You keep playing that same sad song but in the last few years, this has not been the case. Glover, Lenahagn, O'Connor, Nahaboo, Khan, Hudgell, Pearson, Hughes. Peel Holdings,Sport England have all emerged from this realm of non existence to put resources into the game.

2. Parksider, you are a deep thinker and vastly knowledgeable about RL, but you are so pessimistic. look on the bright side occasionally.

1. Messrs Khan and Glover are not putting heavy money in. They have said so. Messrs Lenegean and McManus are not putting money in their aim was self sustaining clubs. Mr. Hudgell has stopped putting money in permanenetly. Mr. Caddick isn't even putting money in his Union side of the Leeds club. Mr. O'Connor sent his CEO out last wek to say he's not bankrolling Widnes forever. Mr. Pearsons investment is self declared as short term. Mr. Hughes met the RFL last year to say the strain is too much. Sport England have cut funding and it doesn't go to kids RL anyway.

2. I listen and look. The resources are inadquate for the current set up. Cas, Wakey, Bradford, HKR and most likely Salford will be on shoestring budgets next year. People may well be getting their wish of a two tier SL1 & SL2.CC clubs with allegedly rich men ready to invest will be crowing but will the rich men really come forward.

The Salford debt relatively isn't that high, but even benefactor extraordinaire mr. Wilkinson isn't prepared to bankroll it.

The private money is running out the playerbase for 14 clubs is inadequate as Brian Noble said this wekend. I listen to Mr. Noble. Realism they call this.

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