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flyingking

First effects of the new development system

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1. :( I was wondering how long it would be before someone decided to declare the facts someone has worked hard on "unuseful". I'm just disappointed it's you sir.

2. It doesn't really matter to that degree. It's a general look at where star players come from in what number - never mind the academies, Juniors in championship club areas can't join academies that don't exist. e.g Batley academy.

There's enough in the excersise to make some general conclusions e.g.

Superleague would be in the proverbial if they didn't still import 69 first choice overseas stars.

Several clubs who think they can be superleague successes have hardly spawned any Pro players at all from their areas

If Cas and Fev got together they could have one heck of an academy

Hull have produced only 13 top Hull professionals yet have two clubs in SL

Only Leeds and Wigan have developed enough local players to operate in SL without having to "buy in"

12 out 0f 14 clubs have to buy in players because they don't produce enough of their own and so

Superleague would be in the proverbial if they didn't still import 69 first choice overseas stars.

And there we are full circle.

Griff - how useful is all the fantasising that goes on on here?? :D

Parky I agree with most of that btw.

SL's failings, and why franchising hisses me off, is that the future of our game lies in player production and development, yet clubs like Salford produce little that hasn't already been created outside the area. Eg Ratchford - Wigan, Myler - Widnes. Adamson - Leigh. Broughton/Williams - Leeds Jewitt/Sneyd - Oldham, Neal being the exception.

We are making it impossible for clubs to maximise the potential player pool by ringfencing those incapable of adding to it.ie encouraging the parasite.

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Parky I agree with most of that btw.

SL's failings, and why franchising hisses me off, is that the future of our game lies in player production and development, yet clubs like Salford produce little that hasn't already been created outside the area. Eg Ratchford - Wigan, Myler - Widnes. Adamson - Leigh. Broughton/Williams - Leeds Jewitt/Sneyd - Oldham, Neal being the exception.

We are making it impossible for clubs to maximise the potential player pool by ringfencing those incapable of adding to it.ie encouraging the parasite.

SL was not responsible for the lack of player production/development, it was pre-SL that the rot set in in that department. Under SL it has improved massively, however it has only happened at certain clubs, those with the money to do it. But slowley other clubs are making movement in the right direction.

All clubs for years behaved parasitically, ask rugby union about it, ask amateur clubs about it, ask whoever was at the bottom of the pile whenever about who was at the top of the pile at the same time.

You have a distorted view of the realities of where this game was and where it is now.

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I can't answer that accurately all that seems glaringly obvious is top class junior players will go join academies where the money and cups are. If someone ends up a star from the Salford academy like Myler Wire will take him, or Zac and Fev academy, Leeds will take him.

yep thats how it wil be and always has been and no problem as long as they pay the transfer fee as they used to do .

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SL was not responsible for the lack of player production/development, it was pre-SL that the rot set in in that department. Under SL it has improved massively, however it has only happened at certain clubs, those with the money to do it. But slowley other clubs are making movement in the right direction.

All clubs for years behaved parasitically, ask rugby union about it, ask amateur clubs about it, ask whoever was at the bottom of the pile whenever about who was at the top of the pile at the same time.

You have a distorted view of the realities of where this game was and where it is now.

I also believe your view to be distorted.

Pre SL, say late 80's, how many non Brits were needed to put a team on the paddock in the top division. Our Sport has evolved since those days, money has come flooding in and players now need not work and train at night. You always had and will always have bait fish, and money seems to have created elites in all UK sport that will feed on what they want because they are financially able to do so - RL is no different except it tinkers with nature to select those allowed to feed.

Increased player pool must be about expansion not exclusion, and if you cant add value you certainly should not be protected after 17 years of FT structures on the pretence that you are slowly moving in the right direction.

I thought we were closing the gap late 80's early 90's, since then we have gone backwards comparitively - why?

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1. :( I was wondering how long it would be before someone decided to declare the facts someone has worked hard on "unuseful". I'm just disappointed it's you sir.

2. It doesn't really matter to that degree. It's a general look at where star players come from in what number - never mind the academies, Juniors in championship club areas can't join academies that don't exist. e.g Batley academy.

There's enough in the excersise to make some general conclusions e.g.

Superleague would be in the proverbial if they didn't still import 69 first choice overseas stars.

Several clubs who think they can be superleague successes have hardly spawned any Pro players at all from their areas

If Cas and Fev got together they could have one heck of an academy

Hull have produced only 13 top Hull professionals yet have two clubs in SL

Only Leeds and Wigan have developed enough local players to operate in SL without having to "buy in"

12 out 0f 14 clubs have to buy in players because they don't produce enough of their own and so

Superleague would be in the proverbial if they didn't still import 69 first choice overseas stars.

And there we are full circle.

Griff - how useful is all the fantasising that goes on on here?? :D

Oh, I wasn't disagreeing as a matter of principle.

Just pointing out that there are grey areas and that it's very difficult to get hard, incontrovertible facts in some cases.

Fantasising ? Very useful. It keeps people happy. B)

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how many non Brits were needed to put a team on the paddock in the top division

They were British but I can remember a lot of players out there being from union clubs.

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Fantasising ? Very useful. It keeps people happy. B)

:D

We need a forum or two adding, Fantasy RL forum for one...

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:D

We need a forum or two adding, Fantasy RL forum for one...

Any thread on promotion and relegation can be transferred there.

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Pre SL, say late 80's, how many non Brits were needed to put a team on the paddock in the top division.

Wigan had the Iro's, Shelford and West, Leeds had five, Widnes a couple, Wire about 3 inc. Tamati and Boyd - a pair of softies, saints three, salford a couple, bradford and hull a couple. Roughly speaking the top division had three good imports per club, today that is about six- double.

I have a feeling (what do others think?) that Superleague raised the playing standard and there was a surplus of players down under who were finding it hard to get a contract in the NRL who were a higher standard than a lot of the Brits, merely because they have so many more players playing the game there. The money was there also to bring them in and so the figure doubled.

I do not have a feeling at all that the imports were generally "no better" than the British players they were supposedly blocking, I think they were better and are still better because they come from a game that has a higher standard and higher numbers playing and has a surplus of quality?

We have a dearth.

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Increased player pool must be about expansion not exclusion, and if you cant add value you certainly should not be protected after 17 years of FT structures on the pretence that you are slowly moving in the right direction.

I agree with part of that in theory because "protected" SL clubs are maybe not moving in the right direction. Salford aren't turning out local lads in any great number, it's been a stagnant area for players for years back to the seventies. Wakefield were trumpeting their championship winning academy a few years ago - stars of the future but there's still only a couple of Wakefield born lads playing SL. Hull and HKR had twenty big names from Hull early eighties, today there's only 13. The only real growth I see is in Leeds where the club could put a cracking home born 17 on the pitch. When I first watched them in 1971 they had Holmes, Eccles and Pitchford.It's taken the club many years at the top to stimulate this growth, Warrington also seem to be inspiring more kids.

But It may be I don't agree at all with your idea about "expansion". Have 20 academies if you like but it won't make any difference if the junior game which feeds the academies doesn't expand.

We've already had the idea Hull/HKR may as well have one academy. The best kids in Hull will still make it and half the kids who go through their academies now won't have to bother suffering the disappointment. This idea could also apply elsewhere? Have a Bradhuddersfax academy.

I think the RFL think the same way which is why they support a London academy, have started a south wales academy and a Cumbria academy. That's the expansion that "may" increase the quality player pool, but it still needs a vibrant local junior RL to draw from. Thoughts?

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I can't answer that accurately all that seems glaringly obvious is top class junior players will go join academies where the money and cups are. If someone ends up a star from the Salford academy like Myler Wire will take him, or Zac and Fev academy, Leeds will take him.

To quote the song, " The rich get rich and the poor get shafted, but, in the meantime, in between time, lets's all have fun ". No point in anybody going into junior development, then, Wigan and leeds will sign up all prospects. No point in any other club getting investors, they can never compete with Leeds and Wigan. Let's just schedule the Grand Final every year alternating the game between DW stadium and Headingley, no point in planning for any of the other losers to get there because they won't.

Let's toss out all stragglers and play the top five against each other 5 times a season because no other teams will ever compete or be worthy.

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To quote the song, " The rich get rich and the poor get shafted, but, in the meantime, in between time, lets's all have fun ". No point in anybody going into junior development, then, Wigan and leeds will sign up all prospects. No point in any other club getting investors, they can never compete with Leeds and Wigan. Let's just schedule the Grand Final every year alternating the game between DW stadium and Headingley, no point in planning for any of the other losers to get there because they won't.

Let's toss out all stragglers and play the top five against each other 5 times a season because no other teams will ever compete or be worthy.

Surely the likes of Leeds ,Wigan and Saints realised the importance of junior development,twinned with good business planning was the way ahead,you can hardly blame them for being well run.

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Surely the likes of Leeds ,Wigan and Saints realised the importance of junior development,twinned with good business planning was the way ahead,you can hardly blame them for being well run.

No, Sir, and more power to them. What p***ses me off is the assumption that no other teams can ever hope to join their select company and so it's useless to ever have any ambition and they are so cashed up and so far ahead in junior deveolpment, that there is no chance anyone can ever ever compete with them. It's negative and defeatist.

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No, Sir, and more power to them. What p***ses me off is the assumption that no other teams can ever hope to join their select company and so it's useless to ever have any ambition and they are so cashed up and so far ahead in junior deveolpment, that there is no chance anyone can ever ever compete with them. It's negative and defeatist.

Only because most clubs didn't initially realise the importance of junior development,instead choosing to go the import route,or not putting enough resources into junior development.

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Only because most clubs didn't initially realise the importance of junior development,instead choosing to go the import route,or not putting enough resources into junior development.

Terry its because there are only 4 SL clubs. Wigan, Wire, Leeds and Saints. Bradford had a bash but decided to go the import line and Hull have the potential - and guess what none of them will ever be relegated in the near future, 10 years, if P&R returned or we went two tens.

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Only because most clubs didn't initially realise the importance of junior development,instead choosing to go the import route,or not putting enough resources into junior development.

Mr. K can be peed off all he likes, and yes Leeds realised the importance of junior development years ago and appointed Dean Bell to kick it off then Wigan swiftly followed and Bell was poached by Wigan.

The ever so evil licensing system was part brought in to make clubs find and bring on quality young British players and turn them into professionals, as far as I recall we've had six or seven years of that. Look at the 220 GB players in Superleague 45 come from Leeds and wigan and 69 from overseas.

Other clubs can't find enough quality junior "material" at least so far. "Material" is a bad word but so is the word "develop". You can't develop a player into a quality pro without him having adequate basic talent unless I'm missing something.

And so it comes to pass such as Wakefield academy win the academy championship and it doesn't translate into anything, you'll only find a couple of quality Wakefield born players in SL.

The salary cap is supposed to even this out, problem one is several clubs can't afford the cap so those spending less like HKR, Cas, Salford etc lose their best young players to the big boys who already have the best. problem two is if any club finds a rich buyer like Mr. O'Connor, when he looks on the market for a player to buy there's hardly any to buy because of the talent shortage. Ken Davey's been at the front of the also rans queue for a decade or more now.

Problem three is when Ellis, Taylor, Fisher, Moon etc become available all things are even amongst the clubs with the money but who do they choose to go to?? Widnes? London? No chance. We know that once the money is pretty even the available top players want to go where the trophies are and will take less money to go there, and that perpetuates things.

You then get nonsenses like these campaigns for SL from clubs who don't even have the money the failing SL clubs have. Then you get HKR's Tony Larvin pledging to spend £15M on top players. Which top players from where? The assumption that you have money means you can buy a quality team isn't there due to the player shortage, as for those who don't have money, they are clearly dreaming.

So Mr.K can suit himself but he knows that to improve anything you have got to work out what's wrong with it.

Mo (idiot 1) recognised the lack of resources including players, so did the RFL (Idiots 2) so Mo looked to spreading the game outside the north (laughs all round), and the RFL have been busy in Barcelona, France, Gateshead, South and north Wales, London, and opening an academy in Cumbria. Then oxford, gloucester etc etc and even looked to Scotland and Ireland.

But of course a widely held opinion on here is they are idiots and it'll never work. Well it just might not be working up here either.

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Tony Larvin has not pledged to spend 15 million pounds on top players.That is nonsense.

Where did you get this distorted information that he is going to spend the 15 million pounds on top players from?

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Mr. K can be peed off all he likes, and yes Leeds realised the importance of junior development years ago and appointed Dean Bell to kick it off then Wigan swiftly followed and Bell was poached by Wigan.

The ever so evil licensing system was part brought in to make clubs find and bring on quality young British players and turn them into professionals, as far as I recall we've had six or seven years of that. Look at the 220 GB players in Superleague 45 come from Leeds and wigan and 69 from overseas.

Other clubs can't find enough quality junior "material" at least so far. "Material" is a bad word but so is the word "develop". You can't develop a player into a quality pro without him having adequate basic talent unless I'm missing something.

And so it comes to pass such as Wakefield academy win the academy championship and it doesn't translate into anything, you'll only find a couple of quality Wakefield born players in SL.

The salary cap is supposed to even this out, problem one is several clubs can't afford the cap so those spending less like HKR, Cas, Salford etc lose their best young players to the big boys who already have the best. problem two is if any club finds a rich buyer like Mr. O'Connor, when he looks on the market for a player to buy there's hardly any to buy because of the talent shortage. Ken Davey's been at the front of the also rans queue for a decade or more now.

Problem three is when Ellis, Taylor, Fisher, Moon etc become available all things are even amongst the clubs with the money but who do they choose to go to?? Widnes? London? No chance. We know that once the money is pretty even the available top players want to go where the trophies are and will take less money to go there, and that perpetuates things.

You then get nonsenses like these campaigns for SL from clubs who don't even have the money the failing SL clubs have. Then you get HKR's Tony Larvin pledging to spend £15M on top players. Which top players from where? The assumption that you have money means you can buy a quality team isn't there due to the player shortage, as for those who don't have money, they are clearly dreaming.

So Mr.K can suit himself but he knows that to improve anything you have got to work out what's wrong with it.

Mo (idiot 1) recognised the lack of resources including players, so did the RFL (Idiots 2) so Mo looked to spreading the game outside the north (laughs all round), and the RFL have been busy in Barcelona, France, Gateshead, South and north Wales, London, and opening an academy in Cumbria. Then oxford, gloucester etc etc and even looked to Scotland and Ireland.

But of course a widely held opinion on here is they are idiots and it'll never work. Well it just might not be working up here either.

Great post.

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Tony Larvin has not pledged to spend 15 million pounds on top players.That is nonsense.

Where did you get this distorted information that he is going to spend the 15 million pounds on top players from?

"I want Rovers to be financially secure for years and years to come. Investing an eight figure sum sounds a lot, but the plans we have in mind will soon eat into that."

Marquee players he called them.

Now it's my turn - How is he going to attract ANY marquee players?

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Mr. K can be peed off all he likes, and yes Leeds realised the importance of junior development years ago and appointed Dean Bell to kick it off then Wigan swiftly followed and Bell was poached by Wigan.

The ever so evil licensing system was part brought in to make clubs find and bring on quality young British players and turn them into professionals, as far as I recall we've had six or seven years of that. Look at the 220 GB players in Superleague 45 come from Leeds and wigan and 69 from overseas.

Other clubs can't find enough quality junior "material" at least so far. "Material" is a bad word but so is the word "develop". You can't develop a player into a quality pro without him having adequate basic talent unless I'm missing something.

And so it comes to pass such as Wakefield academy win the academy championship and it doesn't translate into anything, you'll only find a couple of quality Wakefield born players in SL.

The salary cap is supposed to even this out, problem one is several clubs can't afford the cap so those spending less like HKR, Cas, Salford etc lose their best young players to the big boys who already have the best. problem two is if any club finds a rich buyer like Mr. O'Connor, when he looks on the market for a player to buy there's hardly any to buy because of the talent shortage. Ken Davey's been at the front of the also rans queue for a decade or more now.

Problem three is when Ellis, Taylor, Fisher, Moon etc become available all things are even amongst the clubs with the money but who do they choose to go to?? Widnes? London? No chance. We know that once the money is pretty even the available top players want to go where the trophies are and will take less money to go there, and that perpetuates things.

You then get nonsenses like these campaigns for SL from clubs who don't even have the money the failing SL clubs have. Then you get HKR's Tony Larvin pledging to spend £15M on top players. Which top players from where? The assumption that you have money means you can buy a quality team isn't there due to the player shortage, as for those who don't have money, they are clearly dreaming.

So Mr.K can suit himself but he knows that to improve anything you have got to work out what's wrong with it.

Mo (idiot 1) recognised the lack of resources including players, so did the RFL (Idiots 2) so Mo looked to spreading the game outside the north (laughs all round), and the RFL have been busy in Barcelona, France, Gateshead, South and north Wales, London, and opening an academy in Cumbria. Then oxford, gloucester etc etc and even looked to Scotland and Ireland.

But of course a widely held opinion on here is they are idiots and it'll never work. Well it just might not be working up here either.

Don't forget St Helens in your development hall of fame.

Don't also forget your constant refrain, "Money, money, money". On the one hand clubs, even Leeds and on a good day Wigan, have to be under the salary cap, so they can't just sign uo everybody in sight. Remember they can't afford to do so now and are having to send the residue to Hunslet, South Wales or Rochdale.

Also on the money front, if other clubs get big investors, as say Salford or Hull KR appear to be doing, and they cannot spend beyond the salary cap and in any case the players are not there to be signed, what is to prvent them from approaching promising juniors and offering them more than Leeds or Wigan to sign for their clubs. or to set up development officers in say Salford and Manchester and found junior teams to tap the undoubted potential of such a large population area and develop their own talent. Leeds did, Wigan did.

Even Huddersfield, who you relegate to second tier status in the player development field have half a dozen England players, whom they have developed through their junior ranks or poached from the big boys like Robinson from Wigan.

Hull are the next to produce talent but have only just seriously gone in that direction. let' see if persons money talks there.

Widnes are new to the scene. Their juniors apparently have a lot of promise but are not ready yet. Time will tell if the O'Connor money brings the required success. If they do then O'Connor's money will be instrumental in keeping them at Widnes and away from the big boys. MONEY,MONEY,MONEY.

Leeds and Wigan do not have a lock on any non heartland produced players from London, the midlands, the north east Scotland, Ireland and Wales or even France not to mention PNG, Fiji, Tonga, Samoa etc. Any club with the money can recruit from all these sources as well as developing their own juniors and can catch up with the front runners. Those who do not have the resources will have to be more creative, have a better scouting and coaching set up and produce good teams as and when they can. As you know it's all about MONEY. Sheffield, in the CC, are an example of how to find a winning team by scouting, recuruitment and coaching.

As for Mo, give over. How many SL players are from Barcelona or Paris or even Ireland and Scotland. Cumbroa has been producing players incer year dot and Mo had nothing to do with it. Mo was long gome before there was any movement in Wales. All players from all areas are howver able to be signed by any team with MONEY.

The RFL jumped on the small vehicle ignited by Lionel Hirst when he founded the summer conference, saw the potential and took advantage of Govt. grants to promote it to the size it is today.Kudos to them for seeing the opportunity presented to them ny Hirst. I reiterate however, that any players produced from these area are up fro grabs by the teams with the most MONEY.

The new CC1 expansion teams are embryonic and who knows if they will even survive but if the intention in expanding to these areas was ultimately only in order to produce extra players for SL and not to ultimately expand the geographical footprint on the game, including SL, then that is sad but not surprising. It also flies in the face of the ambitions of your White Knight, Saint Mo.

You should change your user name to Parksider, aka Dr No.

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"I want Rovers to be financially secure for years and years to come. Investing an eight figure sum sounds a lot, but the plans we have in mind will soon eat into that."

Marquee players he called them.

Now it's my turn - How is he going to attract ANY marquee players?

"I want Rovers to be financially secure for years and years to come. Investing an eight figure sum sounds a lot, but the plans we have in mind will soon eat into that."

Marquee players he called them.

Now it's my turn - How is he going to attract ANY marquee players?

In his full quote Larvin said that the first 5m pounds would go on erasing the clubs debts and development for a new South stand.He goes on to mention,playing staff,backroom staff,

ground improvments,sports science ,building up the acadamy"because the youth side is the future". 4G pitch,indoor pitch,sports barn and gym.

You said he was spending 15million pounds on top players(your quote) so you are clearly going in the realms of fantasy on this.

Non of this investment in the club has come about as yet and you want me to tell you "how is he going to attract ANY marquee players?

You seem to think if you type something on here and nobody pulls you up for things that are not true ,that allows you to think it is set in stone.

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In his full quote Larvin said that the first 5m pounds would go on erasing the clubs debts and development for a new South stand.He goes on to mention,playing staff,backroom staff,

ground improvments,sports science ,building up the acadamy"because the youth side is the future". 4G pitch,indoor pitch,sports barn and gym.

You said he was spending 15million pounds on top players(your quote) so you are clearly going in the realms of fantasy on this.

Non of this investment in the club has come about as yet and you want me to tell you "how is he going to attract ANY marquee players?

You seem to think if you type something on here and nobody pulls you up for things that are not true ,that allows you to think it is set in stone.

The point was that he was pledging millions to buy marquee players to make HKR a top side.

You seem to think that's it's good debate to hang on people shoulder and get picky about phrasiology that opens up a point.

It was £15M and we yet await to see wether he'll spend it and what he will spend it on and how.

your doing the same as the other mean spirited type on here who don't want to debate points but have a go. You read a post and then reply by "you this" and "you that". Then you wonder why I have no interest in answering any of your posts.

Don't bother asking me anything again, especially when I ask YOU a question you don't answer it. The site is for people to debate points not try to pick a personal spat with "you this" and "you that". Put me on ignore keyboard warrior if you have managed to make an unfavourable personal assessment of me over the ether, and you don't like me for what I type.

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Don't also forget your constant refrain, "Money, money, money".

Widnes are new to the scene. Their juniors apparently have a lot of promise but are not ready yet. Time will tell if the O'Connor money brings the required success. If they do then O'Connor's money will be instrumental in keeping them at Widnes and away from the big boys. MONEY,MONEY,MONEY.

As for Mo, give over. How many SL players are from Barcelona or Paris or even Ireland and Scotland. Cumbroa has been producing players incer year dot and Mo had nothing to do with it. Mo was long gome before there was any movement in Wales. All players from all areas are howver able to be signed by any team with MONEY.

:blink:

Maybe we should turn amateur again.

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The point was that he was pledging millions to buy marquee players to make HKR a top side.

You seem to think that's it's good debate to hang on people shoulder and get picky about phrasiology that opens up a point.

It was £15M and we yet await to see wether he'll spend it and what he will spend it on and how.

your doing the same as the other mean spirited type on here who don't want to debate points but have a go. You read a post and then reply by "you this" and "you that". Then you wonder why I have no interest in answering any of your posts.

Don't bother asking me anything again, especially when I ask YOU a question you don't answer it. The site is for people to debate points not try to pick a personal spat with "you this" and "you that". Put me on ignore keyboard warrior if you have managed to make an unfavourable personal assessment of me over the ether, and you don't like me for what I type.

Then you get Tony Larvin pledging to spend 15million pounds on top players"

This is what you said.I kindly pointed out to you that he never said that.You are making things up that are not true.

Then you want me to know who these marquee players are.

He hasn't as far as I know put any money in to Hull KR as yet

How could I know what players if any he has in mind ?

What do you mean by keyboard warrior.?

All I ask is that if you are making statements try and stick to the truth and not make things up.

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Then you get Tony Larvin pledging to spend 15million pounds on top players"

This is what you said.I kindly pointed out to you that he never said that.You are making things up that are not true.

Then you want me to know who these marquee players are.

He hasn't as far as I know put any money in to Hull KR as yet

How could I know what players if any he has in mind ?

What do you mean by keyboard warrior.?

All I ask is that if you are making statements try and stick to the truth and not make things up.

He's typical of many people who announce they want to put a lot of money into a club and will sign players to make it a better club.

That he hasn't put a penny in or signed anyone does not detract from the point I was making that no matter if he DID put £15M into the club which he has not, and no matter if he DID look to sign marquee players then he'd have a job finding any to sign, he'd have a job going over the cap and he'd have a job trying to sell them HKR when such as Wigan are on offer.

It's a bit too much to turn this into accusations that when I say something if it is by your interpretation not 100% accurate factual and the exact words he said and actions he took it's a lie.

My view is Larvin has spoken about pumping millions into marquee signings, maybe Koukash will do the same. So that leads me to try to discuss how they will do this.

It leads you into personal accusations I do not tell the truth, hence I am a liar, and that I like to post things from the point of view of expecting them to be "set in stone".

Given I am the only one on here who tends to offer other posters the opportunity to correct things ("corrections welcome") and that I politely thank people for relevant corrections and am happy that we get to the truth in any area of relevance then I think your focus on me rather than the debate is unfair.

Dennis you may think exactly the opposite, and our failure to be able to converse face to face when we would understand each other better, and when you would not rush so quickly to the idea I tell lies and expect people to believe them, and I may not then rush to get all shirty, may be the problem so I suggest we beg to differ.

If Mr. Larvin has not spoken about pumping ,millions into HKR to in part chase "marquee" signings (which I still think he did) then I will apologise for suggesting he did.

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