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Wellsy4HullFC

The SL Licensing v Promotion & Relegation debate thread

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You just don't get it do you Parky? 12 pages on this thread, and numerous other threads of similar if not longer length going back years about the same subject. There are loads of people on here who don't want licensing. There are loads of correspondents to LE's letters page too who don't want licensing. By implication there must be thousands and thousands of fans who don't post on here and don't write to the RL press who don't want it either. What they want is a system whereby their club can be relegated, and then perhaps subsequently promoted. Not a system where to fall out of the the top flight is to be doomed perhaps forever to be excluded. A system where a huge gap in standards doesn't appear between the top and next level - you know - like all the other sports in the UK!

People who are happy with things tend not to write letters to the press, I would say a handful of people or moaning, the silent VAST majority are happy, other wise there would be far more moaning and a wailing going on.

A few letters from Sid and Doris Bonkers is not a majority.

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Ah erm, my point, which you latched on to.

Its all about money, they can ##### about its unfair, it should be about 'on the field' or whatever, but money, in any pro sport, wins.

who are "they?" We come to the whole point of the argument - it's "us and them" no longer "we" that's what Super League and licensing has produced in the ( :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: ) Rugby League "family."

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People who are happy with things tend not to write letters to the press, I would say a handful of people or moaning, the silent VAST majority are happy, other wise there would be far more moaning and a wailing going on.

A few letters from Sid and Doris Bonkers is not a majority.

There are the posts on here to consider too and there are more than a few, there are letters every week. You may not like it Dave but there is a groundswell of opinion against licensing and what it's done to the game.

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who are "they?" We come to the whole point of the argument - it's "us and them" no longer "we" that's what Super League and licensing has produced in the ( :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: ) Rugby League "family."

It was all about money before SL but for some reason you just don't get it, all winners have done it by spending money, often money they didn't really have.

Since 1895, and probably before, especially in Yorkshire, its been about who will spend the most, who earns the most and who can afford the most.

There never was this great era where everyone was equal, it was all about the sport and all about what happened on the pitch. Trophies and league positions have always been won by wallets not players.

And your holier than thow Featherstone have never been any different.

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You just don't get it do you Parky? 12 pages on this thread, and numerous other threads of similar if not longer length going back years about the same subject. There are loads of people on here who don't want licensing. There are loads of correspondents to LE's letters page too who don't want licensing. By implication there must be thousands and thousands of fans who don't post on here and don't write to the RL press who don't want it either. What they want is a system whereby their club can be relegated, and then perhaps subsequently promoted. Not a system where to fall out of the the top flight is to be doomed perhaps forever to be excluded. A system where a huge gap in standards doesn't appear between the top and next level - you know - like all the other sports in the UK!

i agree with you. a club should be promoted by performances on the pitch, not by hitting targets off the field.IMO

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It was all about money before SL but for some reason you just don't get it, all winners have done it by spending money, often money they didn't really have.

Since 1895, and probably before, especially in Yorkshire, its been about who will spend the most, who earns the most and who can afford the most.

There never was this great era where everyone was equal, it was all about the sport and all about what happened on the pitch. Trophies and league positions have always been won by wallets not players.

And your holier than thow Featherstone have never been any different.

Of course money is important, but it's not the be all and end all which you seem to think it is. Fev beat Cas in the CC last season and took Wigan all the way, bank of England club against the rubbing rags from P O Road. A bit of success and you start attracting players to come and play for you. Look at Paul Cooke, played for FC, as soon as KR get into SL he wants to be off, because deep down he's a Robin, it's not all about money Dave.

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It was all about money before SL but for some reason you just don't get it, all winners have done it by spending money, often money they didn't really have.

Since 1895, and probably before, especially in Yorkshire, its been about who will spend the most, who earns the most and who can afford the most.

There never was this great era where everyone was equal, it was all about the sport and all about what happened on the pitch. Trophies and league positions have always been won by wallets not players.

And your holier than thow Featherstone have never been any different.

So Featherstone was a money club when they reached Wembley five times, winning three of them and then winning the Championship in 1978? Really?

Are you saying Rovers spent more money on their team than Trinity, Cas and Leeds who they knocked out on their way to winning the challenge cup in 1967, for instance? Or more than Wigan, Saints, Salford, Leeds etc etc on their way to winning the Championship?

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So Featherstone was a money club when they reached Wembley five times, winning three of them and then winning the Championship in 1978? Really?

Are you saying Rovers spent more money on their team than Trinity, Cas and Leeds who they knocked out on their way to winning the challenge cup in 1967, for instance? Or more than Wigan, Saints, Salford, Leeds etc etc on their way to winning the Championship?

Good morning Terry,

You have an excellent point. Please however consider that in the "old days" player mobility was limited as were the wages and players often didn't travel miles every week to train and play just get a few more quid. They had jobs to hold down as well.

Money used to make a difference up to a point, the richer clubs could pay a few more quid, and steal a player from neighbours. Leeds used to do this to Hunslet and Bramley.

BUT times change. The M62 allowed Hull to drain cas.fev/wakey of their best early 80's (and still Fev and Cas won the cup!) schoey was on his bike, so was Jason Robinson and now all the best juniors not in SL areas are up and off before they even get to play for their local club.

I implore everyone on here to be realistic that pre-1996 money counted but it counts so much more today, and player mobility is a massive factor. This has changed the game and sadly polarised the clubs.

I do "get it" I really do.

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A bit of success and you start attracting players to come and play for you. Look at Paul Cooke, played for FC, as soon as KR get into SL he wants to be off, because deep down he's a Robin, it's not all about money Dave.

But sadly it's become more and more and more about money. Look at Zac.

It HAS to be "mainly" about money when players are professional and the game is their main breadwinner.

Exceptions to the rule won't change the point and Paul Cooke went from a big club with money to a rival club who could also pay him the wages he needed, had he deep down been a York lad he would not have gone there.

The clubs with the money will take ALL and I mean ALL the top players.

You say "You just don't get it do you Parky? There are loads of people on here who don't want licensing. There are loads of correspondents to LE's letters page too who don't want licensing. What they want is a system whereby their club can be relegated, and then perhaps subsequently promoted. Not a system where to fall out of the the top flight is to be doomed perhaps forever to be excluded."....

It's clear you just don't read the posts anymore, and I implore you to do so. I'm happy for P & R to come back but would like to see changes to facilitate it, I've argued against the licensing system, I want a system where CC clubs can have a go at SL and not be ruined. I recognise that Ralph Rimmers impassioned plea for a closed shop contained reasons that have NOT come to pass.

Hello? Are you listening??

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i agree with you. a club should be promoted by performances on the pitch, not by hitting targets off the field.IMO

I'm fine with that, bring it on.

I just want you to look at Leigh when they went up without money.

I want you to look at Halifax when they started their SL campaign with no money.

Widnes went up with shedloads of money and bought a few players and came bottom.

I'm all for a return to P & R seriously I am, but I do reserve the right to discuss what a disaster it may be for some clubs(and some may refuse promotion like Batley, Dewsbury and Hunslet).

Also P & R "with standards" may also exclude all CC clubs.

If anyone has read the thread you'll see I like the idea of significant financial restructuring to give clubs more chance of staying up and that means dropping some of the off field requirements of licensing/standards, and reducing the salary cap somewhat.

I haven't considered the downsides, because I'm trying to facilitate a debate that maximises ideas as to how to make P & R work because people want it.

In what numbers they want it I don't know, nor does anyone else, and whilst it MAY harm their clubs, I see no argument that it would harm Superleague any more as the original argument was to remove P & R so clubs could build. The reality is clubs have collapsed protected from relegation in SL.

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Ah erm, my point, which you latched on to.

So let's reduce the money required by the license conditions in SL significantly, drop the cap a bit and narrow the gap to facilitate auto P & R?? Thoughts?

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Problem with that is that you're in competition for talent with the NRL and RU.

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Problem with that is that you're in competition for talent with the NRL and RU.

Have we lost that battle though Koli.

It was reported Saracens are possibly paying over a £4,300,000 salary cap?

If they wanted any RL player they could get them.

Same with NRL, they have taken the best do they want the rest, after all they are dismissive of our players??

Is it only IN THEORY that we have to keep pushing up wages because if we don't players will leave??

Anyone???

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I find it hard to accept that anybody thinks money won't have an impact - but we won't move forward by restricting the big clubs spending and we won't move forward by excluding clubs entry to a FT culture. Two tens is a must, min salary spends is a must and increasing the max is a must.

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I find it hard to accept that anybody thinks money won't have an impact - but we won't move forward by restricting the big clubs spending and we won't move forward by excluding clubs entry to a FT culture.

Great point. I don't think people always think about the money because when the chairmen and boards of clubs like Leigh, Featherstone, Keighley, Halifax and Sheffield announce they are going for Superleague, the fans take that in good faith (to be scrupulously fair to them) and trust those who are in the position to provide that money.

With respect I don't trust them and I don't like them getting the fans going on this issue, if they are not actually capable of funding a place in SL.

This is why I think all involved in the game must be clear who wants to be in Superleague, which will cost a lot under ANY format and facilitate these clubs either by having them in SL or having a mechanism where they can get in SL. I therefore appreciate your suggestion and the detail you put behind it. Nobody has argued against that.

For Featherstone as an oft argued case, the answer to money being needed to make any impact on SL was that it was appreciated Fev would need money to survive in SL hence the hailing of Mr. Nahaboo.

However there was a secondary view, one shared by Lobby at Leigh, that even if there was no money, a season in the top division would make a change to banging ones head against a glass ceiling.

I appreciate that honesty, however if we went back to auto P & R under the current system/financing (which you argue against and create the alternative) I fear that after an awful year in SL some clubs keen for SL may start to joining the ranks of the refuseniks.

Should auto P & R come back to demonstrate how bad it could be?

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Good morning Terry,

You have an excellent point. Please however consider that in the "old days" player mobility was limited as were the wages and players often didn't travel miles every week to train and play just get a few more quid. They had jobs to hold down as well.

Money used to make a difference up to a point, the richer clubs could pay a few more quid, and steal a player from neighbours. Leeds used to do this to Hunslet and Bramley.

BUT times change. The M62 allowed Hull to drain cas.fev/wakey of their best early 80's (and still Fev and Cas won the cup!) schoey was on his bike, so was Jason Robinson and now all the best juniors not in SL areas are up and off before they even get to play for their local club.

I implore everyone on here to be realistic that pre-1996 money counted but it counts so much more today, and player mobility is a massive factor. This has changed the game and sadly polarised the clubs.

I do "get it" I really do.

Yes you get it alright. But what you don't get is that if this is the case then it's wrong. You can't have a meaningful competitive game if such circumstances prevail. Leeds, Wigan, Saints, Wire. The best of the Championship could compete with the rest - you can't have a game where only four clubs can compete. That's what you don't seem to get Parky. Something has to be done or the game is doomed. You can't have a game where most of the supporters who are not fans of the top four are totally p i s s e d off with the way the game is run. I talk to a lot of people in my work and many of them follow the game. Most of them feel like I do. (the above does not apply to Hull where there's always been a strong core of support no matter how well or badly their teams are doing)

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1. Yes you get it alright.

2. But what you don't get is that you can't have a game where only four clubs can compete.

1. Thanks but erm......

2. Again you don't listen. I've been posting that this is a problem for god knows how long. I've been trying to encourage people to debate a solution, I've been floating the idea of cutting the salary cap down and possibly increasing SL to 16 clubs for several months. Nobody yet has come out against this.

Gary Hetherington thinks the four club dominance is a problem and his club benefits the most, but he came out and still said it so all power to the lads elbow don't you think. You listening yet??

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1. Thanks but erm......

2. Again you don't listen. I've been posting that this is a problem for god knows how long. I've been trying to encourage people to debate a solution, I've been floating the idea of cutting the salary cap down and possibly increasing SL to 16 clubs for several months. Nobody yet has come out against this.

Gary Hetherington thinks the four club dominance is a problem and his club benefits the most, but he came out and still said it so all power to the lads elbow don't you think. You listening yet??

But that's not what you've been saying at all, you've been saying that the likes of Fev, 'Fax, Leigh, Barrow, Keighley, Eagles would do better getting a paper round. Forget about SL membership and merge. I'll say this again, the majority of the fans don't want mergers and don't like licensing. That's why the RFL are looking for a solution that does away with licensing. As I posted earlier in this thread, the City of Wakefield is the 12th biggest city in the UK. Bigger than Southampton, Cardiff, Coventry Southampton, Newcastle, Hull, Derby. Surely this should count for something in the RFL's deliberations.

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For Featherstone as an oft argued case, the answer to money being needed to make any impact on SL was that it was appreciated Fev would need money to survive in SL hence the hailing of Mr. Nahaboo.

However there was a secondary view, one shared by Lobby at Leigh, that even if there was no money, a season in the top division would make a change to banging ones head against a glass ceiling.

I appreciate that honesty, however if we went back to auto P & R under the current system/financing (which you argue against and create the alternative) I fear that after an awful year in SL some clubs keen for SL may start to joining the ranks of the refuseniks.

Should auto P & R come back to demonstrate how bad it could be?

If it was auto P&R or as we are, then its P&R every time.

If this is the option then the Championship GF must be early August latest, the last PT team to stay up was Widnes after an August GF v Oldham allowed them a chance to recruit, something the October GF doesn't and no team can now be FT on £300k cap.

This is not the solution as the gap with top 6 should be huge for the promoted, and the drop to PT RL club destroying. If we had said to Leigh, Fev, Fax and Sheffield in August 2012 that come Feb 2013 they would have £650k central funding and they needed to compete with Cas, Widnes, Salford etc as a FT club with a £1m salary spend then we would be looking forward to two great FT comps now.

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If it was auto P&R or as we are, then its P&R every time.

If this is the option then the Championship GF must be early August latest, the last PT team to stay up was Widnes after an August GF v Oldham allowed them a chance to recruit, something the October GF doesn't and no team can now be FT on £300k cap.

This is not the solution as the gap with top 6 should be huge for the promoted, and the drop to PT RL club destroying. If we had said to Leigh, Fev, Fax and Sheffield in August 2012 that come Feb 2013 they would have £650k central funding and they needed to compete with Cas, Widnes, Salford etc as a FT club with a £1m salary spend then we would be looking forward to two great FT comps now.

So when's your season going to start ?

We've had Grand Finals at the back end of July and dumped the idea.

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Oh you mean two clubs with no money against two clubs with money?

My point entirely?

Yes, but the assumption being made is that all teams in the ten team SL will have money and access to the top players and therefore there will be no blowouts. That's a big assumption and not something which will happen and there will be blowouts.

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But that's not what you've been saying at all, you've been saying that the likes of Fev, 'Fax, Leigh, Barrow, Keighley, Eagles would do better (to) forget about SL membership and merge.

Nope your still not listening. I gave up the idea of mergers a couple of years ago, discussion changed my mind.

I have taken many people to task for even suggesting them this last year.

I've been saying that ANY club can forget about SL if they cant square the finances. Including SL clubs who rot away without money.

And on here I've been looking at ways in which the format of the game can be changed so clubs need less money to compete in SL.

I've also condemned licensing as it stands as a nonsense for some time. I've done it in this discussion.

I have even supported Fev's right to have a go in SL on the basis of fairness dozens of times

So no, your clearly not listening at all??

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Yes, but the assumption being made is that all teams in the ten team SL will have money and access to the top players and therefore there will be no blowouts. That's a big assumption and not something which will happen and there will be blowouts.

There will of course. Circumstance often throws up blowouts you'd never expect like London & Wire.

Back to the discussion on licensing and P & R now..........

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So when's your season going to start ?

We've had Grand Finals at the back end of July and dumped the idea.

It's not my season, my season would be two tens.

If we go to P&R from/to a PT league then I would have the first fixture as boxing day, then New years day. To end of July gives 31 fixture opportunities, incl Fri/Mon at Easter = 26 league 3 for CC and the start of play offs. Play offs to conclude in first 2 weeks of August, followed by NRC. This gives promoted club 2 months extra to prepare and a chance to get stuck into the transfer merry go round when players become available.

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There will of course. Circumstance often throws up blowouts you'd never expect like London & Wire.

Back to the discussion on licensing and P & R now..........

You mean as in " let's only licnce 10 teams because there will be no blowouts" which provoked such a flurry of nensense when I disputed that assertion.

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