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John Drake

EU - In or Out?

European Union - Should the UK be In or Out?   62 members have voted

  1. 1. European Union - Should the UK be In or Out?

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      36
    • Out
      26

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241 posts in this topic

The Greek financial crisis had nothing to do with their membership or otherwise of the Euro, it had everything to do with the entire country systematically spending money they hadn't got while evading or failing to collect any taxes, by being in the EU and Euro when the chickens finally came back to the Acropolis to roost there was at least a bail out plan to stop a collapse into bankruptcy.

Even the most superficial examination of the facts can only conclude that their situation was entirely caused by their own actions and entirely saved by their membership of the EU and Euro, unless that is of course you either are too young, under-educated or ill informed (or a combination of the three).

Or believe and trust what the likes of The Daily Wail, Express, #### etc have to say on the matter bears even a slight resemblance to the truth.

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It'll be a judgement on the economy that determines the outcome of the next election. Who do people trust (or least distrust, perhaps) to create jobs and keep them in employment with a roof over their head. That's always the key issue. Europe will be a footnote to the campaign. Recall William Hague's doomed 2001 Tory campaign slogan: 'Only 7 days to save the Pound". It made zero impression on the public or the result, regardless of the degree to which it obsessed certain sections of the Tory Party and the media.

Exactly. That slogan failed for two reasons. The first being that the Europe is way, way down the list of actual voters concerns. The second being that, since Gordon Brown was the chancellor at the time and was utterly against Britain joining the Euro, it was clearly bonkers to suggest that saving the Pound was ever worth talking about.

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Jon, stop being a wind-up merchant. ;)

But I did have a boozy lunch.

I just didn't have to operate on anyone or go for a drive afterwards.

But, back to the point, I would call a triple-dip recession a financial calamity. And that seems to be very clearly where we're heading.

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Why do we need a referendum about this anyway? I know some say it's a big issue, but so are lots of things. Is it a bigger issue than the economy, the NHS reforms, the education reforms etc that this government are imposing? Not to me it isn't.

Some also argue that we need a say in the way the EU "imposes it's will on the UK". Well we already do. We elect 650 representatives to Westminster and another couple of hundred to the European parliament to have a say on our behalf. It's called parliamentary democracy.

I really do have a problem with the way the EU is portrayed by the press and some politicians - that there is a "them and us" relationship between the UK and the EU. Again this is completely the wrong attitude. Ever since we became full members we ARE the EU just as much as France, Germany etc. If we see ourselves as outsides, that is pretty much our problem, not the EUs.

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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/9821289/David-Cameron-may-have-finished-off-the-Tories-but-he-had-no-choice.html

Interesting analysis here from Peter Oborne, one of the right's more sensible commentators.

The other interesting comment was from NIck Robinson on the BBC who noted that this speech had all the hallmarks of a budget speech - it can be lauded on the day, but might well unravel over the coming weeks. Both Gordon Brown and George Osbourne have had "triumphant" budgets go bad within a couple of weeks.

Time will tell.

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But, back to the point, I would call a triple-dip recession a financial calamity. And that seems to be very clearly where we're heading.

Exactly, far more important than some far off, probably never, possibly, only IF Dave and his chums get re-elected pointless referendum.

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But I did have a boozy lunch.

I just didn't have to operate on anyone or go for a drive afterwards.

But, back to the point, I would call a triple-dip recession a financial calamity. And that seems to be very clearly where we're heading.

But that triple dip is the fault of the snow, not Gideon.

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But that triple dip is the fault of the snow, not Gideon.

Everything is the fault of Gideon.

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Oh, and just in case we are in any doubt about the wisdom of all this:

Daily_Express_23_1_2013.jpg

Daily_Mail_newspaper_front_page.jpg

:lol:

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Everything is the fault of Gideon.

Everything is the fault of the minor political party in the coalition who keep him, his chums and their policies in power.

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I personally would vote to stay.

As for a referendum:

I personally think no don't have one. Not until an independent investigation/research is done into what the EU benefits/costs us.

The 'In' people throw the lines '3 million jobs' '40% trade' and other worthless figures about.

The 'out' people throw rabid arguments out about 'handing over power' and 'costing billions'.

What i would like is an independent group research/investigate all the costs and benefits of membership, present it to us with their conclusion to the UK and then have a referendum and i would go with their conclusion if i had confidence in the research.

My natural position is we should be part of A EU, just it should be a massively reformed EU with powers put back into the hands of govts, slim down the institution but mainly be a trading block with co-operation on other issues such as environment etc.

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OFC you're going to stay. But this way Cameron gets Farage's vote and Merkel bends over backwards to keep you happy.

Don't you guys normally hate it when France does stuff like this? ;)

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I now feel very queasy.

Jeremy Vine had difficulty with a mental image of A Merkel also:-

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In, obviously.

Aside from the fact I like my job, there are so many areas in which we can no longer remain in rooted in some Westphalian fallacy whereby the world stops cleanly at our borders - in policing, foreign policy, environment and social policy - to name four quickly off the top of our head - we are reliant on European co-operation and benefit enormously from it.

The concern, of course, is that Mr Cameron will ignore many of these areas and make the question/argument entirely one of the single market - while perversely attempting to drag us out of social rights that are integral to a single market.

Still, he's right to argue for our continued participation - anything else would be insanity. Other than that, Shadow and Methven Hornet are bob-on as usual.

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I'll let you google who UKIP's 'Scotland leader' is. He is an interesting character...

Oh aye, Marty Feldman's love child!

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The Greek financial crisis had nothing to do with their membership or otherwise of the Euro,

I didn't say it did. I cited Greece in response to someone who thought my claim that we aren't in financial calamity was funny. I also cited the 1930s, both as examples of much worse financial situations than the one we are in, or have been in at any time since 2008 when the bank crash happened.

The part of my post you quoted had nothing to do with Greece; you quoted instead the bit I wrote in response to a point about self-determination in getting out of the economic downturn. My comment related to the freedom to make your own judgement calls about what action to take to resolve the problem. Greece, like Ireland, were tied to a specific system. We have had the flexibility that comes with being outside of the Eurozone. We don't have anyone dictating terms to us either. Staying out of the Eurozone was a good decision; one of the very few made by Gordon Brown.

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Or believe and trust what the likes of The Daily Wail, Express, #### etc have to say on the matter bears even a slight resemblance to the truth.

I wouldn't know. I read The Times.

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The coalition won't appear on the ballot paper, and it'll be about the economic situation as it is in 2015, not as it is now. It might be better, it could be a lot worse.

Indeed.

The rise in employment can't be taken in isolation as an indicator of electoral success.

You used it as an example and I responded accordingly.

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But, back to the point, I would call a triple-dip recession a financial calamity.

I wouldn't. At least not our version of one anyway. When we got to the double dip stage the economy was still growing, just not as much as it had been. The pundits (BBC ones anyway) called it a 'technical' recession because of this. Any triple dip will be likewise as no doubt the economy will still be growing just not as much as people would like.

And that seems to be very clearly where we're heading.

Lefties and the BBC (which is also leftie so I suppose I didn't need to separate it) would love that to be the case. They would relish continued struggle as evidence of how awful the coalition government is. However, at no time yet has the clown leading the Labour Party ever specified how his party would do things differently. That's because they know full well that they would have had to have made all the same decisions as the coalition have done.

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Lefties and the BBC (which is also leftie so I suppose I didn't need to separate it) would love that to be the case.

:rolleyes:

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Lefties and the BBC (which is also leftie so I suppose I didn't need to separate it) would love that to be the case.

:lol:

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In, obviously.

Aside from the fact I like my job, there are so many areas in which we can no longer remain in rooted in some Westphalian fallacy whereby the world stops cleanly at our borders - in policing, foreign policy, environment and social policy - to name four quickly off the top of our head - we are reliant on European co-operation and benefit enormously from it.

The concern, of course, is that Mr Cameron will ignore many of these areas and make the question/argument entirely one of the single market - while perversely attempting to drag us out of social rights that are integral to a single market.

Still, he's right to argue for our continued participation - anything else would be insanity. Other than that, Shadow and Methven Hornet are bob-on as usual.

Social rights aren't integral to a single market; a lack of trade barriers is, social rights isn't a trade barrier.

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The concern, of course, is that Mr Cameron will ignore many of these areas and make the question/argument entirely one of the single market - while perversely attempting to drag us out of social rights that are integral to a single market.

Every one of the EU countries buys oil from the Middle East and shedloads of manufactured goods from China and India ... none of which have remotely acceptable social and employment rights.

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Social rights aren't integral to a single market; a lack of trade barriers is, social rights isn't a trade barrier.

Social rights are essential for a fair single market. They impact on fitness to work in terms of health, housing etc; on employment law and rights at work; training and skills development; pension rights; equalities legislation; free movement of labour; industrial regeneration etc etc etc

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