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Derwent

An Interesting Approach to Dual Reg.....

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York have never attracted rich investors in their entire history to date, so why would they now? How do you know what York's crowds are going to be like this year? Most fans are quite happy with the arrangement.

York also have a number of clubs both within its service area and Local Education Authority that have provided the club with a number of quality players and continue to do so. Plenty of juniors from the area have signed up for the u20s squad this season, so that settles that myth.

York aren't selling their independence at all. Stop being melodramatic.

Yes they are. Stop being myopic.

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If we're measuring what Hetherington has done at Leeds, the starting point should be when he arrived in October 1996.

The answer is "very well". -_-

The answer is very well for Leeds Rhinos.

The answer for RL in the city of Leeds is that it is doing no better today than it was in the declining era of the 1960s, in fact, a little worse.

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As you say there are positives and there are negatives and none of us know how these are going to work out.

Don't forget that it is the Championship clubs in these links that are doing a favour for the SL clubs by playing some of their players that would not otherwise be getting a game anywhere. That doesn't mean that the Championship club has to get down on bended knee and accept everything that may be asked of them.

The reality of these deals is that nobody, not even you Griff, know what is contained in each seperate deal, so let's just wait and see what happens next, not second guessing.

Well conventional wisdom says that the strong oppress the weak and the rich get rich and the poor get shafted.

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The answer is very well for Leeds Rhinos.

The answer for RL in the city of Leeds is that it is doing no better today than it was in the declining era of the 1960s, in fact, a little worse.

Leeds Rhinos is who he works for.

He's hardly responsible for what was happening in Leeds in the 1960s. He was still at school.

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For heavens sake..... :wacko: Lancashire is a council, And also A PLACE, Cumbria is a council and also A PLACE, barrow is also a place within the council of Cumbria therefore barrow is in Cumbria not Lancashire! this is the year 2013 not 1971! ;)

I'm happy to discuss the Local Government Act 1972 - and the eight or so subsequent Local Government Acts - with you on a separate thread if you wish.

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The answer is very well for Leeds Rhinos.

The answer for RL in the city of Leeds is that it is doing no better today than it was in the declining era of the 1960s, in fact, a little worse.

Thats me done on this thread. I'm out.

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If I was a junior looking to sign for a linked CC club I would think my opportunities limited and my path to the promised land blocked by the on loan juniors already taking the spot I wasl looking to aspire to. I would either sign for a SL club directly or an indpendent CC club who had more playing spots available.

Investors will see that the CC club is just a junior appendage being used soley for the benefit of the SL club and would shy away from putting their money and ambition into an organisation which was subordinate to and dependent on anothe company.

Do you have any way of backing up the nonsense you are spouting ?

I don't need to show any evidence as I never stated it as fact like you, and I have no way of knowing how this will work out yet you state things as fact. How about we wait and see how this works before condemning it and the clubs using it.

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sorry but these comparisons are daft, my football team Plymouth argyle averaged 30,000 in the 2nd division back n the 50s! So what? We did very well to get it back to 14-15k when we were in the championship. County cricket, speedway, athletics got massive crowds back then, all part of a postwar boom which will never be repeated.

That's the truth of it and our top clubs, our true Super clubs like Leeds, Saints, Bradford, Wire and Wigan average gates of well over 13,000. Pre SL 1995 that figure was 9,000. In the fourties that figure could have been close to 20,000.

Professional RL has rescued the crowds.

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That's the truth of it and our top clubs, our true Super clubs like Leeds, Saints, Bradford, Wire and Wigan average gates of well over 13,000. Pre SL 1995 that figure was 9,000. In the fourties that figure could have been close to 20,000.

Professional RL has rescued the crowds.

Not quite correct there Parky in 94/95 wigan were around 14.5k and Leeds at around 12.5k, Bradford were just over 5.5k and Wire were down to just below that.

Granted if you want to play silly burgers with the numbers those 4 average out at 9.5k(ish), but that's not what you meant , was it?

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How about we wait and see how this works before condemning it and the clubs using it.

We shall see today when Blackpool Hawk reports on the Hunslet-Leeds game.

From listening to him and you, this is no conspiracy as such but a realisation that if clubs are not careful they may end up where Oldham and Rochdale are now, or even worse, i.e. Bramley, so it's worth monitoring their progress this coming season.

Clubs bust a gut to get out of CC2 last year and are grasping at the lifeline the partnerships provide. You yourself point to survival. Blackpool Hawk made it plain in no uncertain terms - dropping to CC2 with no partnership would be the end for Hunslet.

Blackpool Hawks's comment that Hunslet will never be in Superleague (something we have both known for years but he confirms from a position of club official) puts into perspective the real reason why any criticism of the partnership on the basis of Superleague clubs stifling their partners ambitions for SL are totally illogical and have no foundation nor reason.

For Workington or whitehaven, I recall the RFL's fessibility study that even a joint SL effort was unfeasible. I have argued against that but even Cumbrian fans put me down! Let's hope Workington's 10,000 average crowd in their 1951 Championship winning season is not trawled up as proof they can do it?

Is the partnership for survival when it comes to Swinton, or Oldham or Rochdale or Donny? Clearly it is, they are all in the same boat as Hunslet and Workington. Equally Skolars, Scorpions, Crusaders and Gloucester have to fight back as they also don't want to be in the "league of death".

As for the benefits we shall also see but you allude to several. As for the fans reaction we shall also see. Last year you managed as low as 439 fans for a league game. Rochdale sank to 238, Hunslet 305......

As for the suggestion York for Superleague, now Gav has gone, I find this hard to swallow. The city is is 200K strong but beyond the boundary there's little more population. There's a couple of top amateur clubs as well, but as Gav says there's been no history of any investment. They are in the same boat as I remember well the Hunslet/York game when they came to us saying this will probably be our last game.

Their tie up with Hull is interesting as their histories go back the same length and they played each other a lot in the early days.

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Not quite correct there Parky in 94/95 wigan were around 14.5k and Leeds at around 12.5k, Bradford were just over 5.5k and Wire were down to just below that.

Granted if you want to play silly burgers with the numbers those 4 average out at 9.5k(ish), but that's not what you meant , was it?

I'm not sure what I meant now!!. Leeds and Wigan seemed to chomping at the bit to be the big professional clubs well before SL gave them the chance to go properly down that route. They had spent big and gone out in front crowd wise already by 1995.

I just think it's a basic principle that part time rugby didn't draw may fans and top class professional Rugby draws shedloads.

As for the exact figures (did you miss Saints at 7.5K) as you rightly say they can be manipulated, but the principle can't.

Time they brought top class professional Rugby to Hull and the Calder area :lol:

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We shall see today when Blackpool Hawk reports on the Hunslet-Leeds game.

From listening to him and you, this is no conspiracy as such but a realisation that if clubs are not careful they may end up where Oldham and Rochdale are now, or even worse, i.e. Bramley, so it's worth monitoring their progress this coming season.

Clubs bust a gut to get out of CC2 last year and are grasping at the lifeline the partnerships provide. You yourself point to survival. Blackpool Hawk made it plain in no uncertain terms - dropping to CC2 with no partnership would be the end for Hunslet.

Blackpool Hawks's comment that Hunslet will never be in Superleague (something we have both known for years but he confirms from a position of club official) puts into perspective the real reason why any criticism of the partnership on the basis of Superleague clubs stifling their partners ambitions for SL are totally illogical and have no foundation nor reason.

For Workington or whitehaven, I recall the RFL's fessibility study that even a joint SL effort was unfeasible. I have argued against that but even Cumbrian fans put me down! Let's hope Workington's 10,000 average crowd in their 1951 Championship winning season is not trawled up as proof they can do it?

Is the partnership for survival when it comes to Swinton, or Oldham or Rochdale or Donny? Clearly it is, they are all in the same boat as Hunslet and Workington. Equally Skolars, Scorpions, Crusaders and Gloucester have to fight back as they also don't want to be in the "league of death".

As for the benefits we shall also see but you allude to several. As for the fans reaction we shall also see. Last year you managed as low as 439 fans for a league game. Rochdale sank to 238, Hunslet 305......

As for the suggestion York for Superleague, now Gav has gone, I find this hard to swallow. The city is is 200K strong but beyond the boundary there's little more population. There's a couple of top amateur clubs as well, but as Gav says there's been no history of any investment. They are in the same boat as I remember well the Hunslet/York game when they came to us saying this will probably be our last game.

Their tie up with Hull is interesting as their histories go back the same length and they played each other a lot in the early days.

Can't argue with any of that, I've said all along a cumbrian team built from a merger of town and haven is a non starter, in my opinion it just wouldnt work. The only chance of a sl team up here Is a new one backed by a hell of a lot of money, which is very unrealistic. Towns realistic ambition is to stay up this season, keep progressing as we are and aim for a top 6 finish In years to come. Without this link up we would be cut adrift from the others we are competing against to stay up, we have no choice other than to join in, even though I and most town fans didn't want this and were even against dual reg.

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That's the truth of it and our top clubs, our true Super clubs like Leeds, Saints, Bradford, Wire and Wigan average gates of well over 13,000. Pre SL 1995 that figure was 9,000. In the fourties that figure could have been close to 20,000.

Professional RL has rescued the crowds.

Thank God for better road links, the motor car, internet and even this website.

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Leeds Rhinos is who he works for.

He's hardly responsible for what was happening in Leeds in the 1960s. He was still at school.

I believe the point being made was that RL in Leeds , not merely Leeds Rhinos, was doing better today than ever before. What Hetherington has achieved at Leeds Rhinos is irrelevant to that.

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I don't need to show any evidence as I never stated it as fact like you, and I have no way of knowing how this will work out yet you state things as fact. How about we wait and see how this works before condemning it and the clubs using it.

I am not condemning York or any other club. I just wish they were not susbsuming themselves as minor players in the ambitions of SL clubs. If this arrangement puts York on a successful footing and the club can kick on, become self sustaining on gates and attract financing to apply for a SL licence and play in their new stadium at the top level, then the concept will have been a success.

My fear is, and this applies to all these feeder club deals, is that the CC club will become totally dependent on the SL club. not attract progressive leadership and never break away from the deal to pursue their own ambitions.

I absolutely, desperately hope I am wrong.

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That's the truth of it and our top clubs, our true Super clubs like Leeds, Saints, Bradford, Wire and Wigan average gates of well over 13,000. Pre SL 1995 that figure was 9,000. In the fourties that figure could have been close to 20,000.

Professional RL has rescued the crowds.

And there are no more spectators watching RL in Leeds today than there were in the 60,s when there was no Sky money. The game is in much better shape than it was from the 70s to the 90s but that is due to the money. I am not denying that but the claims about trebling the number of spectators in Leeds viewing RL and the improvements in the amateur game there being solely attributed to Leeds Rhinos are preposterous.

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I'm not sure what I meant now!!. Leeds and Wigan seemed to chomping at the bit to be the big professional clubs well before SL gave them the chance to go properly down that route. They had spent big and gone out in front crowd wise already by 1995.

I just think it's a basic principle that part time rugby didn't draw may fans and top class professional Rugby draws shedloads.

As for the exact figures (did you miss Saints at 7.5K) as you rightly say they can be manipulated, but the principle can't.

Time they brought top class professional Rugby to Hull and the Calder area :lol:

Are you so sure that if RL was not professional that the crowds would just melt away. Surely the fans would still love the game. Whilst not decrying professionalism, I am also not sure that it is financially sustainable except in a few cases and even there, Wigan, Leeds, Warrington they have had to be kick started by massive entrepreneur investment before achieving their current levels of profitability. Bradford on mage success and mega crowds could not sustain full time professionalism.

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We shall see today when Blackpool Hawk reports on the Hunslet-Leeds game.

From listening to him and you, this is no conspiracy as such but a realisation that if clubs are not careful they may end up where Oldham and Rochdale are now, or even worse, i.e. Bramley, so it's worth monitoring their progress this coming season.

Clubs bust a gut to get out of CC2 last year and are grasping at the lifeline the partnerships provide. You yourself point to survival. Blackpool Hawk made it plain in no uncertain terms - dropping to CC2 with no partnership would be the end for Hunslet.

Blackpool Hawks's comment that Hunslet will never be in Superleague (something we have both known for years but he confirms from a position of club official) puts into perspective the real reason why any criticism of the partnership on the basis of Superleague clubs stifling their partners ambitions for SL are totally illogical and have no foundation nor reason.

For Workington or whitehaven, I recall the RFL's fessibility study that even a joint SL effort was unfeasible. I have argued against that but even Cumbrian fans put me down! Let's hope Workington's 10,000 average crowd in their 1951 Championship winning season is not trawled up as proof they can do it?

Is the partnership for survival when it comes to Swinton, or Oldham or Rochdale or Donny? Clearly it is, they are all in the same boat as Hunslet and Workington. Equally Skolars, Scorpions, Crusaders and Gloucester have to fight back as they also don't want to be in the "league of death".

As for the benefits we shall also see but you allude to several. As for the fans reaction we shall also see. Last year you managed as low as 439 fans for a league game. Rochdale sank to 238, Hunslet 305......

As for the suggestion York for Superleague, now Gav has gone, I find this hard to swallow. The city is is 200K strong but beyond the boundary there's little more population. There's a couple of top amateur clubs as well, but as Gav says there's been no history of any investment. They are in the same boat as I remember well the Hunslet/York game when they came to us saying this will probably be our last game.

Their tie up with Hull is interesting as their histories go back the same length and they played each other a lot in the early days.

Investment by millionaires in RL is a relatively recent phenominen. Who was the first, maybe Caddick or Lindsay. Many others have followed, mostly for SL teams, but the trend is that most of the SL teams now have investors and now some of them are becoming interested in CC teams as in Featherstone and Halifax. They all have ambitions of SL though and will not support a team whose ambition is just to survive as an appendage to a SL incumbent.

Given the number of investors who have emerged in recent years, it is not necessarily true to to say that since York, or any other team, have never had investors in the past they will never have them in the future.

I do not know why you would write off a city of 200,000 people as not being big enough for SL. Is that not about the size of Wigan, St Helens, Warrington, Wakefield and Huddersfield and considerably bigger than Widnes and Castleford.

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Investment by millionaires in RL is a relatively recent phenominen. Who was the first, maybe Caddick or Lindsay. Many others have followed, mostly for SL teams, but the trend is that most of the SL teams now have investors and now some of them are becoming interested in CC teams as in Featherstone and Halifax. They all have ambitions of SL though.........

Rugby league clubs who want to be successful need top quality professional players. Rugby league clubs who want to be successful need paying fans/sponsors etc.

You cannot just buy a 12,000 crowd and 17 quality professionals. Money merely papers over the cracks.

Hudgell came in with millions he could neither buy a british quality SL team nor a 10,000 crowd.

O'Connor came in with millions he could neither buy a british quality SL team nor a 10,000 crowd.

Koukash is next what's he going to do to get a decent team and a crowd?

Nahaboo is threatening to come in what's he going to do to get a decent team and a crowd.

Millionaires are coming into the game and struggling to build a club. Until these sort of people actually look to build the strength of the grass roots game in their areas they are fairly pointless.

Mr. Hetherington is not a millionaire. Mr. Caddick no longer lavishes any money on either code. But what Hetherington is doing is what other clubs must try to do.

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Are you so sure that if RL was not professional that the crowds would just melt away. Surely the fans would still love the game.

The attraction of professional RL led to a boom in the gates. Big names, big matches high profile.Take away professionalism and you'll take away the thing that grew the gates in the first place.

Top players, sponsors and fans will walk. In what number who knows, the only guide we have is the 1990's pre SL. first division crowds.

In addition you won't get back the fans who walked away from the Championship clubs after SL came in. They have lost 400 fans per club.

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It isn't just about the population of the town/city though, its about population density of the surrounding area and transport links to those areas.

The Lancashire clubs sit in the second most densely populated urban area in the country and are easily accessible by road and rail, and sit between two of the countries major cities.

York may have a population of 200,000, but it is surrounded by nothing for miles, the surrounding population density is tiny, the largest and nearest large urban areas to York are Leeds and Hull and why travel miles from those places to York when you can watch Leeds, Hull FC or Hull KR. Throughout Yorks history they have struggled to break the 4k mark on crowds. Their all time best attendance was in 1934 and that was only 14,689 and since then their best has been 4,977. York has never been a 'hotbed' of rugby league and its relative isolation will make it difficult in this day and age to become one.

Clubs need to be in areas of high population density and with good transport links, it is no good presuming that if Wigan has a population of X then any club in any town anywhere with a population also of X will achieve the same attendances, places like Wigan and Hull are steeped in RL, and until recently neither place had a successful soccer team, Comparing York to Wigan is as daft as comparing Accrington Stanley to Manchester United.

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I do not know why you would write off a city of 200,000 people as not being big enough for SL.

I do not know therefore why you write off a capital city of 6,000,000 as not being big enough for SL?

We have massive cities in the north including Liverpool, Manchester and Gateshead/Newcastle.

To have a true Superleague club you have to have a large catchment area of fans and access to a sizeable population of grass roots clubs.

Around 1980 York attracted crowds of approx 3,800 when they had two stints in the First Division. They didn't have the players to survive, Today the only York born professional in SL is Peter Fox.

Featherstone is what 20,000 a tenth of York but they have access to top class players and will attract 5,000+ gates.

It's about the size of the RL culture not the population of the city/town, and this is what did for Salford.

Hetherington is trying to grow that culture.

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Comparing York to Wigan is as daft as comparing Accrington Stanley to Manchester United.

I do apologise for saying pretty much the same thing straight after you. I didn't see your post until I pressed the post button.

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I do apologise for saying pretty much the same thing straight after you. I didn't see your post until I pressed the post button.

No problem, you're entitled to have your say regardless of what I or anyone else has previously posted.

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Their all time best attendance was in 1934 and that was only 14,689 and since then their best has been 4,977.

I could have sworn I was in a 10,000+ crowd at Wigginton Road the year Hull went undefeated in Division 2.

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