Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

shun

Dual reg/ Twinning

Dual reg/Twinning   131 members have voted

  1. 1. Who is for and who is against?

    • For
      19
    • Against
      112

Please sign in or register to vote in this poll.

106 posts in this topic

1. I have the utmost respect for Fev, Halifax and Sheffield who have got their house in order and are much better organised than many Super League clubs.

2. Oh to get back to the sensible structures of the 70's and 80's.

1. Superleague clubs have the burden of having to organise a £4,000,000+ turnover and fund a £1,650,000 wage bill.

How well were Halifax organised when they were last in SL??. They collapsed as did Sheffield.

2. Go back to semi pro RL and watch £18,000,000 a year disappear from the game followed by thousands of fans and budding pro

players.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Far more top players are produced by Superleague clubs than by Championship clubs.

Far more junior clubs play the game in Superleague areas than in Championship club areas.

Where exactly is the total failure?

So why aren't the SL clubs running reserve sides to accommodate their monopoly on juniors. Don't tell me they can't afford it Parky please.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I want to see how it pans out first before I decide whether I'm for or against it. If a club decides this is good for them, then I aren't going to disagree unless I've got much evidence to back it up.

The main issue seems to be that (some) Championship clubs don't want to be treated as a feeder club. Surely they have the power to not sign the agreement then?

The standards of both the SL and the Championships 'should' improve (in theory). However, the meaning of one comp is in question. No (automatic) promotion and now some are effectively feeder clubs. I want to see standards improving, but if you relegate the Championship sides to mere feeder teams with no hope of promotion it could die and then there's be no feeder teams left for the clubs.

Is there something in the middle? Bring back promotion with only non-feeder clubs eligible for promotion? Scrap the feeder system but allow SL clubs to field their 'A' teams in the Championships?

At the end of the day, no one has forced the Championship clubs into a partnership with a SL club. They must see some benefit in the arrangement.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So why aren't the SL clubs running reserve sides to accommodate their monopoly on juniors. Don't tell me they can't afford it Parky please.

They've afforded it for 17 years Terry of course they have. But business is about profit and opportunity. The Championship clubs are totally clear they are twinning to get players to avoid relegation and the dire consequences of that. The Superleague clubs are clear they are twinning to save £100,000 a year they can spend elsewhere on the business.

If that leaves Powell and Aston hopping mad do you think the Superleague clubs care? Do you think any big club over the years way back before SL cared when it took advantage of the smaller clubs??

Why did you ask me this question Terry, the answer is clear?

On your point Superleague has a monopoly on all the best junior players, that begs the question why do Fev and Sheffield run academies then? I suppose we could swallow the idea they are well organised and a shining example to useless SL clubs but again the answer is obvious - it's to tick the boxes for a Superleague application.

They are all just looking after themselves the best they can.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They've afforded it for 17 years Terry of course they have. But business is about profit and opportunity. The Championship clubs are totally clear they are twinning to get players to avoid relegation and the dire consequences of that. The Superleague clubs are clear they are twinning to save £100,000 a year they can spend elsewhere on the business.

If that leaves Powell and Aston hopping mad do you think the Superleague clubs care? Do you think any big club over the years way back before SL cared when it took advantage of the smaller clubs??

Why did you ask me this question Terry, the answer is clear?

On your point Superleague has a monopoly on all the best junior players, that begs the question why do Fev and Sheffield run academies then? I suppose we could swallow the idea they are well organised and a shining example to useless SL clubs but again the answer is obvious - it's to tick the boxes for a Superleague application.

They are all just looking after themselves the best they can.

I'm not sure how running an under 20's side ticks a box when SL clubs have abandoned reserve team football. Perhaps Rovers are determined to do things the right way regardless of the nonsense that's going on around them. A monopoly on juniors was your point, not mine Parky.

By the way, remember the name, Jack Bussey. Another star in the making and several others will follow him too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just go back to the jist of what I believe which is that many Championship fans see these moves as the end of their clubs ambitions to get in the top tier.

That may be your very one eyed view but the Championship fans that I meet and converse with seem more discontent about a weak governing body that is allowing SLE to dictate policies that concern not only their clubs but also Championship clubs.

There is quite a lot of discontent of this system and yet what is the main response from the RFL? To take it up with the UKBA to try and get the regulation relaxed to allow SL clubs visa players permission to play on loan at Championship clubs to gain fitness.

How does that address problems that clubs are outlining to the RFL? All that is doing is appeasing Gary Hetherington so that he can get Kylie Leuluai some game time.

For everything else that has been raised by clubs and individuals the response seems to be "well lets suck it and see".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That may be your very one eyed view but the Championship fans that I meet and converse with seem more discontent about a weak governing body that is allowing SLE to dictate policies that concern not only their clubs but also Championship clubs.

There is quite a lot of discontent of this system and yet what is the main response from the RFL? To take it up with the UKBA to try and get the regulation relaxed to allow SL clubs visa players permission to play on loan at Championship clubs to gain fitness.

How does that address problems that clubs are outlining to the RFL? All that is doing is appeasing Gary Hetherington so that he can get Kylie Leuluai some game time.

For everything else that has been raised by clubs and individuals the response seems to be "well lets suck it and see".

Good post Keith

That reply from the RFL gave us an insight into where the RFL's priorities lie. Sort out the discontent, paper-thin regulations and inequality - no. Lets see how we can get Leuluai some game time first.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

in it's original form of helping the development of potential young talent then an unreserved YES......................as a mdium to keep established players fit (wood, mccarthy and gardner) then a definite NO.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

being a widnes fan i have experienced both sides of the argument, we were linked with wigan for DR and from that deal we discovered a superbly talented young half back in joe mellor, now we are the superleague club it's fantastic to watch young lads like declan hulme get the chance of genuinely competetive first team rugby which will aid their long term development.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Last season Workington Town and HKR announced a partnership which included the "loan" of one or two young players to Town to assist the players development in the game.

Three young players were nominated for loan but after 1 game two of the players decided that they didn't want the hassle of travelling from Hull to west Cumbria once or twice a week. The other lad, Dave Petersen, stuck it out and ended up being one of the nominations for Championship 1 Young Player of the Year award.

Near the end of the season we took two lads from Salford on dual registration (Andy Morris and Adam Walne) plus another from Wakefield (Chris Annikin). These three lads only managed a handful of game between them for Town but all did very well.

At the very end of the season Town were hit by numerous injuries and suspensions and found themselves struggling for players and it culminated with a midweek match away at Gateshead where the four dual registered players weren't available from their SL clubs and we had to play two players recalled out of retirement, a 17 year old prop on the wing, other players out of position and we named 2 of the injured players on the subs bench to avoid getting a fine for not naming 17 players.

The point I am trying to show here is that there wasn't a great deal wrong with the dual registration system last season except as shown with us that the players involved were very much in the control of the SL clubs and the Championship clubs could not rely on their availability.

The system only required some sort of tightening up of this sort of thing to make it work to the benefit of everyone but the system that has been brought in and the way some clubs are using it has been more in favour of the SL clubs to get some senior players game time rather than developing young players, which we were all told was the thinking behind it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When you can't answer a point you make it personal. It's not about me.

Championship club fans moan what a financial mess Superleague is in and when they do something about it they moan all the more.

Translate the moans and you get "I'm upset because my club no longer has the chance of top flight RL."

Soccer went massive in the TV era, Union went pro and has three times as much money to offer players, Aussie RL has stepped up a level financially. RL can't get a TV deal to manage a 14 club SL successfully.

Having a childish jibe at me won't change the reality.

You're right it's not about you. That statement was about the attitude of SL clubs towards the championships and their lack of concern for the health of the game outside of SL. That's their attitude as you stated. Your post about their attitude is summed up as " I'm alright Jack". a famous quote from the last century about the smug and selfish attitude prevalent in industrial/workplace relationships.

How you interpret that as a jibe at you, well, maybe delusions of grandeur.

Yes, SL clubs needed to do something to right their financial ship. The problem is that their solution might well lead to the demise of any competition outside of SL as an independent enitity and either result in the death of clubs or their relegation to strictly A team operations and nothing more. All this to solve the SL probelms of overspending. It's a classic " I,m alright Jack" moment and the follow up to that is " Eff the rest, I've got mine ".

What soccer and Union and the NRL has to do with internecine fratricide within the British RL community I have no idea.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To increase the playing standards of RL in this country we need the best players playing regullary in a tough competition. SL clubs (like the Wolves) stock piling good players with no suitable reserve team is ridiculous, whilst clubs like Cas struggle to get 17 SL standards players on the park each week. Dual Reg therefore addresses this issue.....

I fear that "loaning" out players who have nowhere else to play (to lower levels of the RL) will only prevent playersfrom championships clubs) the opportunity to play at a suitbale level. Amateur RL is losing players at a rapid rate and I fear these championship level players may be lost to the game for good. There is a good number of ex-RL lads playing RU now as the number of teams / clubs allows players to find a level suitable with good financial rewards.

NET RESULST -SUper league grows stronger in the short term, and hundreds give up rugby league. Then where do th enext generation of players come from?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1. Superleague clubs have the burden of having to organise a £4,000,000+ turnover and fund a £1,650,000 wage bill.

How well were Halifax organised when they were last in SL??. They collapsed as did Sheffield.

That was then and this is now. Wakefield, Bradford, Crusaders abd Salford have collapsed very recently. Why don't you pillory them?

I'm sure most Championship clubs would love to have the Sky money to play with. Burden? I'm sure they would love to have that burden and the wage bill does not have to be that size if the club cannot afford it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

NET RESULT -Super league grows stronger in the short term, and hundreds give up rugby league. Then where do th enext generation of players come from?

The junior set ups all SL clubs should be creating starting with schools, then onto local junior clubs then onto the SL academy.

Your right you have to have the players, but lots on here would kick Broncos out,cheered and sneered when Crusaders went under and can't understand why we have the French in SL.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That was then and this is now. Wakefield, Bradford, Crusaders abd Salford have collapsed very recently. Why don't you pillory them?

I don't pillory any club it's the attitude that top CC clubs are marvellous and well run and SL clubs are just useless.

It's a silly bias.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All this to solve the SL problems of overspending.

No it isn't. It's been accepted by CC clubs to try to stave off damaging relegation first and foremost.

The devils are the CC clubs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No it isn't. It's been accepted by CC clubs to try to stave off damaging relegation first and foremost.

The devils are the CC clubs.

One preceded the other. The original driver was to save money at SL clubs. The rest followed after some lower Championship clubs jumped ranks before the meeting of Championship clubs to discuss the issue. Other clubs who were likely to be at the bottom end looked at this and decided they better do something similar or they'd be struggling. But let's not pretend it didn't originate as a SL plan to cut costs when it clearly was.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Parky what are you talking about?

This all started to save money for SL clubs. Have a look at the timelines in the RFL article here (RFL News 10th February 2012). Championship clubs hadn't even had a chance to discuss it with other Championship clubs until September 2012 by which time the SL clubs had not only decided but some had actually set about setting up partnerships - Leeds and Hunslet leading the way.

Yes, some clubs jumped on the bandwagon to get a partnership before there was none left to partner so that they weren't left behind but the over-riding reason for this present system is all down to the SL clubs, especially those that turned down the chance to have a SL reserves (Under 23) league to save £100k each.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Parky what are you talking about?

This all started to save money for SL clubs. Have a look at the timelines in the RFL article here (RFL News 10th February 2012). Championship clubs hadn't even had a chance to discuss it with other Championship clubs until September 2012 by which time the SL clubs had not only decided but some had actually set about setting up partnerships - Leeds and Hunslet leading the way.

Yes, some clubs jumped on the bandwagon to get a partnership before there was none left to partner so that they weren't left behind but the over-riding reason for this present system is all down to the SL clubs, especially those that turned down the chance to have a SL reserves (Under 23) league to save £100k each.

This. The move was obviously to try and save SL clubs money, I don't think there was even a meeting between CC clubs to discuss this I think Hunslet came out with it as they realised they were destined to go down. Therefore leading everyone else to jump on.

I do think a few SL clubs were against the scrapping of the under 23s though, I don't think Wire were in favour of it but what's done is done now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What I can't understand is that we've had 17 years of Sky monies - £200 million plus.

And yet we have a player development system that is not fit for purpose and the clubs can't afford £100k p.a to run their player development.

There are clubs who have been in the top tier for all of the 17 years, not been even near relegation, and still need to rely on a lower grade competition to keep squad players fit and to develop their youngsters. These lower grade clubs - who receive 90% less central/guaranteed/Sky funding, yet these clubs can interact and develop links with their communities, develop their facilities and provide a full player pathway. But the top clubs simply can't or can only put their eggs in the one basket at a time. Its a clear indication of failure.

The situation could be tempered a bit if say like British Cycling that we were now leading the world and winning stuff. Trouble is, we aren't.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Parky what are you talking about?

This all started to save money for SL clubs.

It only started when the first Championship club threw away it's independance.

Up to then nobody had actually done anything.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It only started when the first Championship club threw away it's independance.

Up to then nobody had actually done anything.

Now you are being silly!! Just for once admit you are wrong.

Read the timeline from the RFL. The SL clubs started talking about doing away with junior grades back in April 2012, then again in July 2012 and in to August 2012 when the first mention of a Championship club (Hunslet) becoming a partner evolved. The Championship clubs didn't meet until September 2012, after it had been cut and dried. As the RFL report says by this time other clubs were talking to each other about partnerships.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What I can't understand is that we've had 17 years of Sky monies - £200 million plus.

And 17 years of paying professional wages £300 million plus.

From 2006 all SL clubs were made to run academies, and academies they run, and still do now.

So I don't know where the fundamental failure is here Shaun?

The main thing we need is the twinning agreements not to get in the way of the ambitious CC clubs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Now you are being silly!! Just for once admit you are wrong.

Read the timeline from the RFL. The SL clubs started talking about doing away with junior grades back in April 2012, then again in July 2012 and in to August 2012 when the first mention of a Championship club (Hunslet) becoming a partner evolved. The Championship clubs didn't meet until September 2012, after it had been cut and dried. As the RFL report says by this time other clubs were talking to each other about partnerships.

I'm happy to concede any point to you Keith, but answer mine. It took a Championship club to decide to twin and then go ahead and break ranks before the problem started. So Hunslet started it??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The junior set ups all SL clubs should be creating starting with schools, then onto local junior clubs then onto the SL academy.

Your right you have to have the players, but lots on here would kick Broncos out,cheered and sneered when Crusaders went under and can't understand why we have the French in SL.

no i certainly wouldn't want broncos kicked out and no i certainly didn;t cheer when crusaders went #### up!!. and yes i can't see what having french clubs in super league is improving their national game, they are still as poor today as they were pre 2005

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.



Rugby League World - April 2017

League Express - Mon 10th April 2017