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Haven Horizon

Online Petition

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So reinstating P&R would?

Probably not but abandoning P&R hasn't stopped it either and it's morally wrong to deny a team and it's followers a chance of playing in the top flight when they've earned the right by winning their Championship.

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Probably not but abandoning P&R hasn't stopped it either and it's morally wrong to deny a team and it's followers a chance of playing in the top flight when they've earned the right by winning their Championship.

Even if they become a yo-yo club,with no stability either financially or player wise?

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Like the use of the word MORE.So Super League hasn't eradicated the problem then.

nope, but it sure has improved the situation. ever since 1895 our code has been littered with financial failures. ..just like those codes that do have single-season, purely results based p and r. Anyone who was aroung in the late 60s and 70s will testify t the parlous state of our game then compared with now. The petition merely demands a return to those days.

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Probably not but abandoning P&R hasn't stopped it either and it's morally wrong to deny a team and it's followers a chance of playing in the top flight when they've earned the right by winning their Championship.

Obviously "going bust" and "p + r" are separate issues ......

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Many posters have said clubs have gone "bust"

The recent examples of Bradford and Salford didn't go bust, they were rescued.

The interesting question for me is would those rescues have happened if both clubs didn't have a licence for the next 2 years allowing the new owners time to build the clubs back up.

I don't think we will ever stop sports clubs in general having financial problems (it happens in all sports) but are we as a sport better placed to rescue the situation?

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You think wrong. Several clubs have either been refused or gone into panic improvement mode to get from tier 5 to tier 4.

Further down the leagues, some team in the Northern Counties East League got relegated last season, despite winning their division, because their facilities weren't good enough.

I was right then! The only no strings I'm aware of remains from 4 to 3.

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Many posters have said clubs have gone "bust"

The recent examples of Bradford and Salford didn't go bust, they were rescued.

The interesting question for me is would those rescues have happened if both clubs didn't have a licence for the next 2 years allowing the new owners time to build the clubs back up.

I don't think we will ever stop sports clubs in general having financial problems (it happens in all sports) but are we as a sport better placed to rescue the situation?

If they didn't go bust,why would they need rescuing?

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I was right then! The only no strings I'm aware of remains from 4 to 3.

I'm pretty sure you are right! To get into the Football League a club has to satisfy certain criteria, and I know that a club going into the Championship has to eventually remove terracing, but there are no additional requirements for a club moving from League Two to League One (ie, tier 4 to 3).

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Many posters have said clubs have gone "bust"

The recent examples of Bradford and Salford didn't go bust, they were rescued.

The interesting question for me is would those rescues have happened if both clubs didn't have a licence for the next 2 years allowing the new owners time to build the clubs back up.

I don't think we will ever stop sports clubs in general having financial problems (it happens in all sports) but are we as a sport better placed to rescue the situation?

Sorry,"financial difficulties"

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Why not just sign Andy Burnhams existing petition?

I think it died a slow, lingering death, with many duplicate signatures. It will be interesting to see if this one will allow a person to sign it twice (it seems to the same platform as Andy Burnham's).

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So let me get this straight - the petition is to get the RFL to 'consider' bringing back P&R - not actually a request for them to bring back P&R.

Haven't the RFL already suggested that they will be reviewing the structures (Andy Gatcliffe certainly stated they will be) - job done!

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In all the other major sports in the UK, football, cricket, rugby union, promotion and relegation exists successfully, so why has it been taken away from rugby league?

I think it is wrong to speak of p&r existing successfully in these sports on a UK-wide basis. Perhaps rugby union clubs can be promoted to the elite level in England, but not so in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland. In those countries the professional clubs are regional entities in a tier above the club game. You'll never see Stirling County, Ebbw Vale or Belfast Harlequins playing in the Heineken Cup or the Celtic League (or whatever it is called now).

Similarly in football (soccer). In Northern Ireland football is divided between senior and intermediate, and movement between the two tiers is not automatic. In Scotland the SFL is a virtual closed shop, and entry can only happen when an existing club keels over and dies (or they decide to expand).

In cricket, in England and Wales, the only promotion towards the top end of the game is within the existing, full-time professional County Championship. That is a bit like splitting the Super League in rugby into two divisions of 7 and having p&r between the two. There is no way that they are going to introduce p&r into/out of first class cricket eg Cumberland will never win promotion from the Minor Counties Championship to the County Championship by performances on the pitch.

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I was right then! The only no strings I'm aware of remains from 4 to 3.

I do apologise. I misread your post.

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I do apologise. I misread your post.

That's fair enough. I am normally spouting ######.

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I agree in principle P&R should be brought back, it is what sport is all about for heavens sake, it is like taking away winning and losing. But there needs to some levelling of the funding from the RFL first. The Championship teams only receive £90k a season from central finding, SL clubs get £1M. The RFL give approx £15M a year out to clubs.

IMO funding should be more evenly distributed between the divisions, how about splitting it £700k SL, £300k Ch and £100k in Ch1. in order to help teams in championship to bridge the gulf between them and the SL clubs. This would also help to bring back the magic of the Challenge cup, with lower division clubs more regularly turning over the bigger clubs.

In terms of the arguments of clubs overspending to get in, wasn't the salary cap brought in to stop that from happening?

Let's not forget some of the current SL clubs are not big clubs, they were just lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time.

Prior to SL, Keighley were getting getting gates of over 3-4000, this was against teams bringing in no more than a hundred or so fans. In the last season of CH rugby Widnes were only getting 1500 fans until they were given the green light to get back in and then the gates trebled.

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I think it died a slow, lingering death, with many duplicate signatures. It will be interesting to see if this one will allow a person to sign it twice (it seems to the same platform as Andy Burnham's).

Indeed, had a quick look at his website, given his high profile in Leigh and the exposure if got on BBC local radio (Manchester and Merseyside) along with a whole host of local paper coverage he racked up 1300 or so signatures it would seem. Not sure if that was enough to get him the meeting with Maurice Watkins he seemed to be after, no mention on his website of the outcome of any meeting if there was one that I can see.

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I've signed partly because I thought it was very reasonably worded, and I think a review is needed.

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I think it is wrong to speak of p&r existing successfully in these sports on a UK-wide basis. Perhaps rugby union clubs can be promoted to the elite level in England, but not so in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland. In those countries the professional clubs are regional entities in a tier above the club game. You'll never see Stirling County, Ebbw Vale or Belfast Harlequins playing in the Heineken Cup or the Celtic League (or whatever it is called now).

Similarly in football (soccer). In Northern Ireland football is divided between senior and intermediate, and movement between the two tiers is not automatic. In Scotland the SFL is a virtual closed shop, and entry can only happen when an existing club keels over and dies (or they decide to expand).

In cricket, in England and Wales, the only promotion towards the top end of the game is within the existing, full-time professional County Championship. That is a bit like splitting the Super League in rugby into two divisions of 7 and having p&r between the two. There is no way that they are going to introduce p&r into/out of first class cricket eg Cumberland will never win promotion from the Minor Counties Championship to the County Championship by performances on the pitch.

that might be true but I think Wales has made a mistake and the conservatism of cricket is hardly the best example. The county set up is a bit weird

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I see what you mean, but it is a petition not a poll. I applaud this opportunity for people to express their opinion in this free and open way. Of course,the hundreds of thousands of those who do not agree with the petition will not sign, so obviously their views must be taken into account. In any case, to have any influence, the petition statement must be watertight, which I am afraid it is not.

I dont recall a petition to abandon promotion abd relegation

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I have absolutely no intention of signing it.

I am not putting my name to something designed to do maximum damage toclubs and the game as a whole.

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Lobby, why would you at your age? :)

But seriously folks, that is nothing to do with anything. Our game has to deal with current and future realities. Of course, I encourage those who support the petition to sign it.

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If the sport has any hopes of spreading fan-wise e masse to the new towns, we need automatic promotion to SL preferably with 2 spots per year. Its the only way to see clubs like Hemel or Oxford in SL within the lifetime of an Oak tree

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I have absolutely no intention of signing it.

I am not putting my name to something designed to do maximum damage toclubs and the game as a whole.

i.e. turkeys don't vote for Christmas!

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i.e. turkeys don't vote for Christmas!

No, turkeys vote for automatic P&R

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The real point is that chickens can't automatically become turkeys; they have to gain a licence by satisfying the appropriate criteria.

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