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Haven Horizon

Online Petition

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Cas itself is 50% bigger than Whitehaven (25,000 in 'Haven vs 37,000 in Cas')

Also, Cas is surrounded by other towns, like Pontefract which is almost as big again. Whitehaven has Workington to the North and a lot of mountains.

I doubt that a viable SL club can be formed in Whitehaven alone. Perhaps, and the barriers to this are huge and don't need repeating here, there is the economy across both Whitehaven and Workington to support a medium sized SL club.

The target catchment area for Cas is probably 3 to 4 times bigger that of Whitehaven.

Castleford themselves are on the fringes of viability for SL in my opinion. This is not a value judgement, before anyone jumps in, it's just the facts of small town teams in a fully professional sport.

Sorry Steve, I repeated you.....

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What's a SuperLeague guy? What are these two versions of RL of which you speak? Are there two governing bodies, are there two sets of rules?

Well, yes, there's SLE and the RFL for the rest.

The championships have the bonus point. SL does not. The champion ships have p and r. SL does not. SL has franchises/licences, the championships do not.

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It is the be all and end all. Reject SKY and return to semi pro and we won't ever get near the Aussies again and the game will disintegrate.

And are we near the Aussies now ?

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I don't engage with those who spit food at you while their eating.

I don't dine from the top table.

My club is the leading club for giving up independence and marrying a Superleague club.

They are already an "A" team and they already feature as part of the Leeds set up on the Leeds website.

So what? I've been as passionate as anyone supporting them but unlike others I can accept that times change and needs must.

Unless "I only care about my club".

Well I don't, I care about the whole game it's given me shedloads of enjoyment over the years and will give me shedloads more.

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And are we near the Aussies now ?

We've professionalised our small and limited game and can still play on the same pitch as them, sneak the odd win.

Lyndsay hoped professionalising the game would have the spin off of making us more able to compete with the Aussies but it hasn't done that.

But how is that any reason to indicate we should not have professionalised the game? You know as well as I do without Superleague we'd lose to the Aussies today in the same way PNG lose to them by large scores every time.

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We probably won't Gaz as we are seeing how small our game is and how few top professionals it develops, it's dwarfed by Aussie RL.

But it's not the point. It's a red herring. Our ticket to survival as a game is a strong Superleague.

Championship clubs feel their ticket to survival is feeding off Superleague.

P & R is a side show to that, it doesn't matter to the health of the game.

And the game should not pander to the wishes of small groups of self interested fans.

Like London supporters perhaps.!

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I don't dine from the top table.

My club is the leading club for giving up independence and marrying a Superleague club.

They are already an "A" team and they already feature as part of the Leeds set up on the Leeds website.

So what? I've been as passionate as anyone supporting them but unlike others I can accept that times change and needs must.

Unless "I only care about my club".

Well I don't, I care about the whole game it's given me shedloads of enjoyment over the years and will give me shedloads more.

At Headingley.

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Like London supporters perhaps.!

The game doesn't pander to London Fans.

The game seeks to find new places for talent that was what Lyndsay wanted to see that was what Lewis wanted to see.

That's what so many of us want - top RL players evolving in the north east, IN LONDON, in Wales in France, and there wasn't the money or investment to do it at SL level now the game is desperately hoping they'll evolve in Oxford and Gloucester.

How many fans there are in London is irrelevent to the purpose of London, but you know this so why pretend you don't?

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At Headingley.

I've had wonderful times at headingley since 1971 many of those watching Leeds get beat.

What's your point, because if your just going to keep prodding me like Northern Sol and fail to show any intelligent debate then I will put you on ignore with great pleasure.

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We probably won't Gaz as we are seeing how small our game is and how few top professionals it develops, it's dwarfed by Aussie RL.

But it's not the point. It's a red herring. Our ticket to survival as a game is a strong Superleague.

Championship clubs feel their ticket to survival is feeding off Superleague.

P & R is a side show to that, it doesn't matter to the health of the game.

And the game should not pander to the wishes of small groups of self interested fans.

So where is this strong Super League you speak of.It's a very weak comp with no strength in depth.

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We've professionalised our small and limited game and can still play on the same pitch as them, sneak the odd win.

Lyndsay hoped professionalising the game would have the spin off of making us more able to compete with the Aussies but it hasn't done that.

But how is that any reason to indicate we should not have professionalised the game? You know as well as I do without Superleague we'd lose to the Aussies today in the same way PNG lose to them by large scores every time.

What was the score the last couple of times we played them in Australia, was one 45 to 0 or some such?

If we went to semi pro, I can't see the international side suffering too much. A good portion of our stars might migrate to the NRL so we would have a better international team than we do now. The ones remaining in the UK, semi pro or not would still be the best the game over here has to offer and would slot into the national team to supplement the NRL based players.

I am not advocating a return to semi pro as such. Obvioulsy full time pro would be better, but if needs ( financial) must then I don't think it would weaken the England team too much. The gap between us and the Aussies is already wide.

I also hope I am wrong about the gap and we pull off a miracle in this years World Cup.

The benefits to the place of our game in the national consciousness would be immense. It could be argued that England RUs big leap at international level was hugely aided by their world cup win.

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So where is this strong Super League you speak of.It's a very weak comp with no strength in depth.

Where do you think it is Clement??

It's struggling to attract enough fans below the half way mark.

It's struggling to develop many top class stars.

It's struggling to keep what few stars it has.

It's struggling to attract adequate TV money and private investment.

It's something we agree on Clement.

But surely a return to semi pro will simply accelerate these problems.

A return to P & R would have no positive effect.

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If we went to semi pro, I can't see the international side suffering too much.

The argument goes send our best 25 to NRL and they may improve and compete.

But if you think a semi pro game will carry on developing British starts in the future then we are miles apart in our thinking.

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The game doesn't pander to London Fans.

The game seeks to find new places for talent that was what Lyndsay wanted to see that was what Lewis wanted to see.

That's what so many of us want - top RL players evolving in the north east, IN LONDON, in Wales in France, and there wasn't the money or investment to do it at SL level now the game is desperately hoping they'll evolve in Oxford and Gloucester.

How many fans there are in London is irrelevent to the purpose of London, but you know this so why pretend you don't?

You were the one talking about not pandering to small groups of fans. Looking at the north east there seems to be some serious junior development going on and but Gateshead are a CC1 club, so in that case, it would be pandering to small groups of fans but in London, because they are a sort of SL club, it's not. Double standards again.

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Signed. The happy clappy brigade on here, in the RFL and in the RL media can keep glossing over this issue for as long as they like but there are still very many people who care deeply about the sport who are not buying RL tickets, merchandise, newspapers and magazines because they feel ostracised by this and similar issues.

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I don't dine from the top table.

My club is the leading club for giving up independence and marrying a Superleague club.

They are already an "A" team and they already feature as part of the Leeds set up on the Leeds website.

So what? I've been as passionate as anyone supporting them but unlike others I can accept that times change and needs must.

Unless "I only care about my club".

Well I don't, I care about the whole game it's given me shedloads of enjoyment over the years and will give me shedloads more.

Blah blah blah.

I don't care anymore. It's a crock of sh*t for someone else to worry about. I'm going to stick to training U8 kids for Reeth football club and RL can go shaft itself harder than anyone else could. DR, SL, PPI, all the same.

I will of course continue to annoy people on this board when the situation suits.

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The argument goes send our best 25 to NRL and they may improve and compete.

But if you think a semi pro game will carry on developing British starts in the future then we are miles apart in our thinking.

If there was no full time pro the semi pro game would produce British stars. Where else would they go. The British junior game, which actually does produce the players will not go away. RU can only take so many. You seem to think that I am advocating this. I am not BUT financial pressures might make it unavoidable.

The various fully pro or nothing defenders don't seem to acknowledge that such a step might become unavoidable.

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Lyndsay hoped professionalising the game would have the spin off of making us more able to compete with the Aussies but it hasn't done that.

By the time any young player reaches the SL he's probably already about half way through his playing career.

If we want to match the Aussies it starts when the players are 7,8,9 years old. We have to match the quality of coaching then in the crucial early years.

A fully professional game at the top level is absolutely necessary, but by no means sufficient. Not even close to sufficient.

I think a lot of people thought that a fully professional game would be enough to match the Aussies. But not for the first time, and sadly not the last, the thinking in British RL was weak, shallow and revolved around a short term fix that didn't produce the goods.

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If there was no full time pro the semi pro game would produce British stars. Where else would they go. The British junior game, which actually does produce the players will not go away. RU can only take so many.

RU can take plenty. Do you think that Leroy Cudjoe would be playing for Huddersfield for £250 appearance money when he could easily get £200k a year playing for Harlequins? How long do you think Sam Tomkins would play part time for Wigan? One match, two? Not even long enough for the ink to dry on a contract with Leicester.

Part time RL at the top level is never, ever coming back.

BTW, I'd argue strongly that the British junior game isn't producing the players. If it was, we'd be matching Australia.

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Posted · Hidden by John Drake, February 14, 2013 - No reason given

I don't care anymore. It's a crock of sh*t for someone else to worry about. I'm going to stick to training U8 kids for Reeth football club and RL can go shaft itself harder than anyone else could. DR, SL, PPI, all the same.

Bye then.

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Posted · Hidden by John Drake, February 14, 2013 - No reason given

Blah blah blah.

I don't care anymore. It's a crock of sh*t for someone else to worry about. I'm going to stick to training U8 kids for Reeth football club and RL can go shaft itself harder than anyone else could. DR, SL, PPI, all the same.

I will of course continue to annoy people on this board when the situation suits.

sorry but that's the manifesto of a troll. No need for it

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Posted · Hidden by John Drake, February 14, 2013 - No reason given

Blah blah blah.

I don't care anymore. It's a crock of sh*t for someone else to worry about. I'm going to stick to training U8 kids for Reeth football club and RL can go shaft itself harder than anyone else could. DR, SL, PPI, all the same.

I will of course continue to annoy people on this board when the situation suits.

I rarely post on this forum

But I can't let this pass

Your choice of what you do in your leisure time is a matter for you: and frankly I don't care.

But it seems strange that just because the way the professional competitions don't conform to your ideas you are happy to walk away from it...again I don't care because you find the most corrupt sport in the world, played by the worst role models imaginable who's own competitions don't conform to your demands, which is riven with racism prone to the sickest crowd abuse that you can hear at at a sporting event, where those appalling role models are paid more in a month at not necessarily high a level than a paramedic can earn in a lifetime.

Good for you for getting involved in getting children involved in sport, whether its soccer or not, but your rationale for leaving one for the other is IMHO bizarre

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Well, yes, there's SLE and the RFL for the rest.

The championships have the bonus point. SL does not. The champion ships have p and r. SL does not. SL has franchises/licences, the championships do not.

The Championships do not have p and r in and out of the competition. Oxford, Gloucester and Hemel did not gain admittance to Championship 1 through on-the-field promotion, and we should be grateful for that. In fact, none of the tiers in the sport have automatic p&r between them - the gaps are just too big.

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Signed. The happy clappy brigade on here, in the RFL and in the RL media can keep glossing over this issue for as long as they like but there are still very many people who care deeply about the sport who are not buying RL tickets, merchandise, newspapers and magazines because they feel ostracised by this and similar issues.

I can empathise with this

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What happens so often on this board is that the fans of P&R hold fast in their beliefs and those opposing that view spend their time deriding them and producing hyperbole to say they're wrong, deluded, foolish or dreamers.

It's a petition. If you don't like it don't sign it.

hyperbole? What hyperbole? How is providing information based support for an argument hyperbole?

Are you not deriding those that dare to disagree with you?

If people think you are wrong, deluded, foolish, dreamers, and can back it up with hard information, then it's up to you to refute it with a stronger, factual argument, rather than bleat and play the victim, or move to that great corinthian sporting culture of soccer.

I'm a dreamer, and I'm not the only one. The trouble is that dreams are just that, they have no basis in reality(actually they do, but that's another discussion), I dream of a rugby league competition that is broadly based enough, well financed enough, and demographically strong enough to sustain it: hell, not even soccer can do that, and cricket has to have such as 20 20 and one day competitions to sustain a county championship attended by dozens not tens of thousands, or even thousands of spectators.

So until that sunny upland hoves into the horizon, I'll at least have a bit of respect and understanding those charged with the making sense of and doing something about the historical mire that rugby league attempts to survive and grow in.

I guess that's what makes me a clown and ###### in a swimming pool.

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