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ShotgunGold

BBC article - Utter utter RUBBISH

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I haven't labelled you a racist. You do that to yourself IMO. If you didn't think your opinions were in some way dubious you wouldn't be so keen to tell us how not racist you are.

Not necessarily. Its become tediously predictable that anyone even raising such a question gets the R word hinted at in their direction. This is perhaps why people need to quantify their position.

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Left wingers can certainly be racist. I strongly doubt you are, judging by what you write here.

In my opinion anyone who wants to live here should have a decent standard of English. Preferably when they arrive, but pretty soon after that if not. Personally, I can't see why that's even controversial. How can you live well here and make a decent life if you can't nip out to the shops to buy a pint of milk?

What about English people who move to Gwynedd?

Or is the Welsh language not as importamt

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This article relating to a violent crime illustrates the current problems in Bradford.The two communities operate under different mores and the courts are too lenient on Moslems compared to ethnic "traditional British" people ... i.e. whites, Afro-Caribbeans, Hindus, Sikhs and associated groups.

I think that

1. A white man would have got jail for the same violent offence, and would have expected to.

2. No white wife would have pleaded with the judge to be lenient, or be prepared to carry on living in the same home as her assailant.

http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/10244944.Wife_attacked_by____bullying____husband/

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This article relating to a violent crime illustrates the current problems in Bradford.The two communities operate under different mores and the courts are too lenient on Moslems compared to ethnic "traditional British" people ... i.e. whites, Afro-Caribbeans, Hindus, Sikhs and associated groups.

I think that

1. A white man would have got jail for the same violent offence, and would have expected to.

2. No white wife would have pleaded with the judge to be lenient, or be prepared to carry on living in the same home as her assailant.

http://www.thetelegr...ing____husband/

How do you know the ethnicity of the man in the report?

Edit, ok, I saw the paragraph that says

The man must attend the Ummid Project in Bradford that works with offenders from Asia.
How do you know he's a muslim?

Also, knowing someone that has worked (albeit in a peripheral role) with the Police Domestic Violence unit, you would be shocked at how difficult it is to get people to testify against violent partners of whichever religion, race or colour. They are repeatedly taken back into the family home, excuses are made, lies and half truths are believed

And finally, I would take your assertions that

1. A white man would have got jail for the same violent offence, and would have expected to.

2. No white wife would have pleaded with the judge to be lenient, or be prepared to carry on living in the same home as her assailant.

to be ill judged at best, but to me they sound particularly unpleasant and racist.

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This article relating to a violent crime illustrates the current problems in Bradford.The two communities operate under different mores and the courts are too lenient on Moslems compared to ethnic "traditional British" people ... i.e. whites, Afro-Caribbeans, Hindus, Sikhs and associated groups.

I think that

1. A white man would have got jail for the same violent offence, and would have expected to.

2. No white wife would have pleaded with the judge to be lenient, or be prepared to carry on living in the same home as her assailant.

http://www.thetelegr...ing____husband/

You're possibly right on point 1 but so wrong on point 2. Every week there are stories of women of all creeds and colours who's boyfriends have killed their children after years of systematic abuse. This is far worse, far more evil than clocking someone with a frying pan, but they put up with it because "They love Darren/Wayne/Kyle" and are pathetic creatures who fortunately tend to get what's coming to them in prison .

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What always makes me chuckle about the topic of multiculturalism is this idea that it is a modern phenomenon; that, and the belief that there was some golden age where we had one accepted culture that 'we British' adhered to. For a start 'Britain', or the various incarnations of the United Kingdom if you prefer, is, and has been, made up of at least four nationalities (five if you include Britishness). That is a handful of cultures before you start considering the diversity existing within even the indigenous population within each nation.

And, of course, a major contribution towards culture is religious background, and, boy, do we do diversity within these islands! Anglicanism, Roman Catholicism, Presbyterianism, any one of the various non-conformist denominations.

Languages: English, Welsh, Scots Gaelic, Irish Gaelic, Lallans, Cornish...

What we have had at various times are attempts to impose cultural uniformity by the dominant elements in society. Roman Catholicism was imposed, Anglicanism then became dominant, and Roman Catholicism was suppressed. Then we had the denominations emerging from the reformation, with Presbyterianism becoming dominant in Scotland, and 'dissenting' religions growing in influence in various parts of these islands. All sorts of methods were used to oppress difference, including death, disqualification from owning property or standing for office, and all, ultimately failed.

And while monolingualism has been all but completely successful, there are still small populations that maintain the ancient indigenous languages of these islands. It may annoy some that leaflets, websites and services are available in Welsh, Scots Gaelic and Irish, but these are important provisions that support our multicultural society.

No, multiculturalism has nothing to do with people with darker skin and non-Christian faiths coming over here for work and a better life, and it has certainly not been imposed by 'middle class liberal lefties' (FFS). It has everything to do with people fighting to preserve what they feel is their own cultural identity, especially when the pressure has been to conform to some, more powerful, norm. Followers of rugby league should have some understanding of that.

I don't anyone who objects to multiculturalism really has Celtic minority languages in mind. I don't object to stuff being translated in Welsh but why it needs to be translated into a dozen South Asian languages is another issue.

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This article relating to a violent crime illustrates the current problems in Bradford.The two communities operate under different mores and the courts are too lenient on Moslems compared to ethnic "traditional British" people ... i.e. whites, Afro-Caribbeans, Hindus, Sikhs and associated groups.

I think that

1. A white man would have got jail for the same violent offence, and would have expected to.

2. No white wife would have pleaded with the judge to be lenient, or be prepared to carry on living in the same home as her assailant.

http://www.thetelegr...ing____husband/

At least we don't have to use the word borderline any more.

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I'll tell you what. One group of immigrants who really were evil feckers we could have done without were the Normans.

The Anglo-Saxons could have done without them. The Normans really were evil feckers.

However, it is unlikely that many of us on this forum lack Norman ancestors.

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At least we don't have to use the word borderline any more.

I think you made his point about being labelled racist for discussing major issues.

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I think you made his point about being labelled racist for discussing major issues.

No, I think the point is made about being labelled Racist by discussing major issues in ill thought racist terms

HTH

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No, I think the point is made about being labelled Racist by discussing major issues in ill thought racist terms

HTH

So your argument is that such discussions are only for those who have attended all the recent courses and are deemed "worthy".

I think we're back to the chattering classes imposing multiculturalism on the white working class and labelling dissenters as racist.

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I don't think domestic violence can really be used as any sort of marker in this thread. Its definitely something that transcends race or class barriers.

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I don't think domestic violence can really be used as any sort of marker in this thread. Its definitely something that transcends race or class barriers.

and gender too, which often goes by with almost ridicule.

Anyhoo, carry on.

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So your argument is that such discussions are only for those who have attended all the recent courses and are deemed "worthy".

I think we're back to the chattering classes imposing multiculturalism on the white working class and labelling dissenters as racist.

Thanks for explaining what my point was, I'd foolishly assumed it was something completely different.

If someone wishes to avoid being mistaken for a Racist then they should perhaps avoid using Racist turns of phrase like

1. A white man would have got jail for the same violent offence, and would have expected to.

2. No white wife would have pleaded with the judge to be lenient, or be prepared to carry on living in the same home as her assailant.

This is not a case of the dissenters being labelled Racist, it is a case of Racists being labelled Racist.

Or do I mean something different? Perhaps you'd be kind enough to explain.

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]

This is not a case of the dissenters being labelled Racist, it is a case of Racists being labelled Racist.

Or do I mean something different? Perhaps you'd be kind enough to explain.

You've lost me, I didn't go to public school.

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I think you made his point about being labelled racist for discussing major issues.

I labelled someone making an entirely unsubstantiated point about the positive and negative characteristics of people purely on grounds of their race as a racist.

I do apologise. What word should I have used?

I also, at no point, have said that he should be silenced.

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and gender too, which often goes by with almost ridicule.

Anyhoo, carry on.

There are differing levels of domestic violence by background and culture. I'm told - though I haven't checked - that one of the worst countries to be a woman if you don't want to get battered by your partner is New Zealand. So it would be worthy of discussion.

The Home Office guidance on domestic violence doesn't actually mention male victims. Which rather makes your point for you.

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I didn't go to public school.

Are you carrying a chip on your shoulder about that as well?

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and gender too, which often goes by with almost ridicule.

Anyhoo, carry on.

Correct.

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You've lost me, I didn't go to public school.

OK, allow me to clarify.

You made prejudiced sweeping generalisations about domestic violence and sentencing, that do not appear to bear even a passing similarity to the truth, based on nothing more than skin colour.

These prejudiced sweeping generalisations based on skin colour are what most of us would call "Racist", therefore several of us, myself included, have reached the conclusion that you hold some Racist views.

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Oh just stop with the name calling. That means EVERYBODY! :angry:

Debate the points being made, not the people making them, eh?

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Are you carrying a chip on your shoulder about that as well?

Not really; I won a scholarship to Monmouth, but turned it down.

In other news, my next door neighbour is a Hindu family, next door-but-one is a Sikh couple. We all get on and count each other as good friends. Same goes for my bookkeeper, who is ethnic Jamaican (with a husband who is ethnic Dominican) and the landlord of one of the pub where I will be going tonight and tomorow. By and large, our views on Bradford's divided society are broadly similar. Perhaps we are all racist.

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I'm fairly certain there was the odd Pole or Ukrainian who didn't speak English but I'll bet you any money they were of the older generation- not learning English was a no no for the vast majority of East European immigrants.

Not so today, where in a lot of immigrants view learning English is an optional extra as they can get by as everything is printed in their language. How much does the NHS spend on translation services? Millions? A waste.

And why do people have to choose their words? What happened to saying what you feel? Perhaps Phil is drawing on his own personal experiences? I know I do when discussing such matters.

like I said I wasn't using it as a generalisation. Do you think that people from pakistani/bangladeshi backgrounds who were born and grew up here can't speak English.

The immigration patterns/social and cultural backgrounds are so different between eastern europeans and south asians that they can't be directly compared.

We have to choose our words and thast goes for everybody because we are involved in a rational discussion. One has to have firm information in order to do that ratrher than rumout, hearsay, impressions, emotional rhetotic.

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Chris, the simple fact is that there are many people living in say, Bradford, from Bangladeshi/Pakistani heritage (either born here or there) that cannot speak English, lots.

That's not to say it is exclusively them.

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like I said I wasn't using it as a generalisation. Do you think that people from pakistani/bangladeshi backgrounds who were born and grew up here can't speak English.

The immigration patterns/social and cultural backgrounds are so different between eastern europeans and south asians that they can't be directly compared.

We have to choose our words and thast goes for everybody because we are involved in a rational discussion. One has to have firm information in order to do that ratrher than rumout, hearsay, impressions, emotional rhetotic.

But if they are all moving into this country, there is a degree of commonality which should allow for comparisons to be made. Remember that, when comparing things, we usually also contrast them.

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