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JohnM

First it was smoking, now its drinking. What next?

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OK, we've got to grips with the evils of smoking, though there is still some way to go. Now its the turn of drinkers as the minimum price debate grows in intensity. It has been said that becoming a vegetarian, abstaining from sex and alcohol and spending hours in the gym does not actually make you live longer...it just seems that way.

So what's next on the forbidden list?

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I stopped listening to the 'experts' a few years back. They just make it up as they go along.

But then, they'd be out of a job if there was nothing to busybody about.

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In the case of Bradford, and many other places, there's a huge impetus on getting people onto public transport. Not, of course, that they've got any intention of improving the bus and train services. No need when they can just block street entrances, put kerbs across pull-in bus stops, install speed bumps on all side streets, re-phase traffic lights, curtail town-centre parking and generally make the traffic system ever more congested for car drivers.

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Bus fares are ridiculous. If there's 2 or 3 of you, its *cheaper* to club together and get a taxi into town (or most fairly short journeys) than wait for a bus that may or may not turn up.

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Bus fares are ridiculous. If there's 2 or 3 of you, its *cheaper* to club together and get a taxi into town (or most fairly short journeys) than wait for a bus that may or may not turn up.

Aye. Costs me £3.10 to make the 5 mile journey into town. Not right.

Getting on my socialist soapbox for a minute, public transport should definitely be publicly owned and run. It makes no sense to have different private bus companies operating in the same area on the same routes. When a route isn't profitable they do their best to limit the number of busses to the bare minimum. OAP bus passes costs the tax payer much more than they ought to because these companies charge for a set number of journeys irrespective of whether these journeys are taken. Rail, bus and tram should all be run by a national transport agency owned by the taxpayer. Solidarity comrades.

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I once had a discussion with a vegetarian about what they would do with all the animals if they banned eating meat. Most farmers would either wholesale slaughter their livestock and turn their land over to arable farming, or they would keep some stock for under-the-counter, illegal, unregulated meat. This would no longer be monitored by the RSPCA and standards of farming & husbandary being reduced. We would also see more breeds becoming extinct, as PETA & other idiot, idealist organisations will never be able to keep livestocks as pets to the levels that would be sustainable.

I have a garden that according to RSPCA regulations is just big enough to keep a pig, if they became, such as in Phillip K. Dick's book" Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep", illegal, I would try and keep 2 in cramped, dirty and insanitary conditions that would be harmful for the animals and the meat.

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I once had a discussion with a vegetarian about what they would do with all the animals if they banned eating meat. Most farmers would either wholesale slaughter their livestock and turn their land over to arable farming, or they would keep some stock for under-the-counter, illegal, unregulated meat. This would no longer be monitored by the RSPCA and standards of farming & husbandary being reduced. We would also see more breeds becoming extinct, as PETA & other idiot, idealist organisations will never be able to keep livestocks as pets to the levels that would be sustainable.

I have a garden that according to RSPCA regulations is just big enough to keep a pig, if they became, such as in Phillip K. Dick's book" Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep", illegal, I would try and keep 2 in cramped, dirty and insanitary conditions that would be harmful for the animals and the meat.

Were you ###### at the time?

No sensible vegetarian would suggest any of the things possible you are suggesting

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Farmers need to make a living, they are not going to keep the animals as pets, or some kind of curiosity.

Cumberland sausages used to be made with the meat from the Cumberland breed pig, now it's made to a rough recipe, because the breed is extinct. (Not even made in what used to be called Cumberland.

Many other animals would go the same way because of economics in farming.

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All true

I still dont want an animal to have an often rotten life then go through an abbatoir for me

Others may differ

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Were you ###### at the time?

No sensible vegetarian would suggest any of the things possible you are suggesting

Now there are two words I never thought I see together.

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Now there are two words I never thought I see together.

Talking of putting words together, or rather, trying to...

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on alchohol i think in the not to distant future we will be issued with a card that allows a limited number of units, much the same as the carbon allowance card that is already being planned. :wacko:

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on alchohol i think in the not to distant future we will be issued with a card that allows a limited number of units, much the same as the carbon allowance card that is already being planned. :wacko:

I'm not so sure. It would be political suicide for any party suggesting that although I imagine that tax on alcohol could achieve a similar aim. Also, prohibition didn't work in the US and this would just create a black market in poor quality and dangerous products.

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OK, we've got to grips with the evils of smoking, though there is still some way to go. Now its the turn of drinkers as the minimum price debate grows in intensity. It has been said that becoming a vegetarian, abstaining from sex and alcohol and spending hours in the gym does not actually make you live longer...it just seems that way.

I know a few of the people who've drafted the Alcohol Health Alliance report - and there are far more recommendations than just minimum pricing. As a rough summary, look at how alcohol is regulated in Sweden and that's what they've gone for.

Now, most of the authors aren't civil servants or special advisors or anything like that. They are people who have worked at the coal face. They've worked in addiction clinics, liver and GI wards, domestic violence centres and in general practice. And they have seen that alcohol in this country doesn't just affect other people, doesn't just affect the grubby unwashed but that it affects millions of people from all backgrounds, genders and geography. And, having tried to 'nudge' people to be sensible or realise that the tax and duty on a pint doesn't cover the end of life care you and others need (and in fact takes away from the NHS's finite resources) they're getting a bit desperate.

I don't particularly like the report or its recommendations but can completely understand where it's come from.

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Any idea if it worked in Sweden?

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I don't really see minimum pricing stopping those who want to drink too much drinking too much, but it may help pubs compete with supermarkets as the difference in prices level out.

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When will the idiots in charge learn that if people want to drink too much, they will. Anything they try will be got round by the problem drinkers. I know several serious alkies and they find a way to drink- all the time...and it isn't always beer.

Far easier to punish the vast majority of drinkers though who aren't social physcopaths though.

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Any idea if it worked in Sweden?

Not definitely, as we do not have a control Sweden to compare it to.

However, there has been plenty of research on alcohol intake undertaken by the drinks industry. Two factors affect alcohol intake, affordability and marketing.

Affordability means that middle class people drink more alcohol, not just more expensive alcohol. People on benefits drink very little alcohol.

Marketing has a slight impact and it the main impact on which brand people drink, with few exceptions (such as real ale).

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So what's next on the forbidden list?

Masturbation.

Already banned in public places. Only a matter of time before the EUSSR bans it in the workplace.

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Masturbation.

Already banned in public places. Only a matter of time before the EUSSR bans it in the workplace.

What about when there are kids in the car?

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I'm not so sure. It would be political suicide for any party suggesting that although I imagine that tax on alcohol could achieve a similar aim. Also, prohibition didn't work in the US and this would just create a black market in poor quality and dangerous products.

This is what I was suggesting with meat

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Far easier to punish the vast majority of drinkers though who aren't social physcopaths though.

As an extreme example, the fact that we're in a triple-dip recession with wages well off the pace of inflation has made a difference to the people I know who smoke. Fags are now cripplingly expensive. I've watched them go from normal packs to roll-ups to 'from a bloke in the pub' to, finally, seriously attempting to stop. Obviously people on benefits get their cigarettes free so this only applies to honest workers toiling ... Also I've seen the charts that show (though not entirely sure I believe them) that the price of petrol has reached such a point that people are driving less, certainly outside the times when they have to.

So, change through charging is possible. In theory.

The summary of the report focuses a lot on culture. That the UK has a culture where drinking is the norm goes without saying. It also goes without saying that everyone (by which I mean everyone) lies to their GP about how much they drink and, even before then, underestimates in both units and absolute amounts how much they drink. Most people are completely unaware of whether their drinking is raising their risks of disease and completely clueless as to the cost of this disease on themselves, their families and the NHS and other services. Very few people have the good fortune to just drop down dead.

If it really was just chronic alcoholics then there wouldn't really be that much of a burden - but it isn't and there is.

Will minimum pricing solve this? No. Do I think there is a problem with booze in our culture? Yes. Do I lie to my GP about how much I drink, underestimate how much I have and how often and what the actual risks and costs are? Oh, yes.

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Masturbation.

Already banned in public places. Only a matter of time before the EUSSR bans it in the workplace.

:D

That that's the spirit! Though in fact I am pretty sure we'll see S'rAlex at it if Ryan Giggs plays on Tuesday. :lol:

I was thinking more of a post-alcohol push on ...oh, I dunno....fat, sugar, salt in food, people not wearing hi-viz jackets in bed, and my favourite, all pedestrians and car drivers to wear crash helmets.

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When will the idiots in charge learn that if people want to drink too much, they will. Anything they try will be got round by the problem drinkers. I know several serious alkies and they find a way to drink- all the time...and it isn't always beer.

Far easier to punish the vast majority of drinkers though who aren't social physcopaths though.

Our posts may have crossed, but the research carried out by the drinks industry would contradict this. Hardened alchies will drink after-shave, but most of us will not nad decreasing the affordability of alcohol does seem to have an effect. Certainly, alcohol is far more affordable for people now than it was twenty years ago and consumption has increased accordingly.

The presentations I saw were at the Institute and Guild of Brewers, so certainly not a Government body interested in social nannying or more tax.

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oh, I dunno....fat, sugar, salt in food, people not wearing hi-viz jackets in bed, and my favourite, all pedestrians and car drivers to wear crash helmets.

Some people seem to have a naive belief that the labels on food should reflect the contents within.

Don't they realise that that is basic red-tape nanny state ism?

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