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l'angelo mysterioso

HUGO CHAVEZ hero, villain, or a bit of both?

43 posts in this topic

his obit on here sparked a bit of discussion,

perhaps here is the place to continue it.

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A little from column A, a little from column B. Part idealist, part opportunist.

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Another awful tinpot dictator. What possible redeeming qualities could anyone find in him?

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Another awful tinpot dictator. What possible redeeming qualities could anyone find in him?

Owen Jones (so you may automatically not trust it) in the Independent

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Another awful tinpot dictator. What possible redeeming qualities could anyone find in him?

well, he was elected, resisted a right wing coup and, as Jones says lifted the Venezuelan masses out of grinding povery. Not a bad start.

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Owen Jones (so you may automatically not trust it) in the Independent

Hmmm.

I think he's grossly mismanaged some serious wealth his country has due to their petrol, so it doesn't surprise me that some Venezuelans have 'got rich' under his rule. I think the country will be found to be the economic basket case it's always been, but on a much bigger scale.

He has concentrated on cult of personality, media control and populist propaganda with ridiculous anti-everyone statements designed to antagonise but which his uninformed domestic audience lapped up, so it doesn't surprise me that he "won" 'democratic' elections.

Ive never really bought into the nowhere-near -as-bad-as-some-of-the-crooks-who-were-there-before-him argument, but that may well be true. I on't know enough about it.

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Owen Jones (so you may automatically not trust it) in the Independent

Quite so. I think Jones would make an ideal replacement for Chavez and I would willingly contribute towards buying the gobby and obnoxious ###### a one-way ticket to Venezuelan oblivion. Not that I hold a strong opinion, though. :lol:

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Another awful tinpot dictator. What possible redeeming qualities could anyone find in him?

Ive never really bought into the nowhere-near -as-bad-as-some-of-the-crooks-who-were-there-before-him argument, but that may well be true. I on't know enough about it.

But enough to make blanket condemnation eh?

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Ive never really bought into the nowhere-near -as-bad-as-some-of-the-crooks-who-were-there-before-him argument, but that may well be true. I on't know enough about it.

One of his predecessors, rather living up to the Latin American 'El Presidente' stereotype, at least sartorially.

Pérez_Jiménez_2.jpg

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The Venezuela Violence Observatory (OVV) says violent crime has risen steadily in Venezuela since 1999 when President Chavez took office. In that year only 4,550 murders were registered. in 2011, at least 19,336 people have been killed this year, an average of 53 a day. see http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-16349118

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well, he was elected, resisted a right wing coup

Of course he was elected, he controls the media and created the constitution that governs the elections. It would be hard to lose under such circumstances.

, as Jones says lifted the Venezuelan masses out of grinding povery. Not a bad start.

Indeed he did but more could have been achieved. He is not the worst leader Venezuela have ever had but it is hardly a hero for not squandering all of Venezuela's vast oil wealth on funding terrorist organisations in Colombia.

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But enough to make blanket condemnation eh?

I know plenty enough about Hugo himself. There is always a lot of coverage in Spain about South American affairs. Im less au fait with what came before, which it what I was referring to in your selective quote, but that's hardly vital to having a valid opinion on Hugo.

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Chavez's 'democratically elected' hand-picked successor Maduro has been expounding his theory on how the cancer was caused by the enemies of Chavez (ie the US). It'd be funny if it wasn't. God help 'em .

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I can't claim to know much about him or Venezuela really but I heard Ken 'red ken' Livingstone claiming he was great because he gave Londoners a load of cheap petrol or something (to keep fares down) and if he's involved, there will be corruption and back scratching aplenty...so based on such a flimsy theory I think he was bent.

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Of course he was elected, he controls the media and created the constitution that governs the elections. It would be hard to lose under such circumstances.

Indeed he did but more could have been achieved. He is not the worst leader Venezuela have ever had but it is hardly a hero for not squandering all of Venezuela's vast oil wealth on funding terrorist organisations in Colombia.

going back to the OP I actually think a bit of both but I certainly defend his working to improve the conditions of the poor, who wouldn't?

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I certainly defend his working to improve the conditions of the poor, who wouldn't?

No-one, but Chavez didn't, despite his claims. His nationalisation policy will prove disasterous, and a lot of the wealth created from petrol has been badly spent.

I know some people want to break this down into a left wing/right wing thing, but that makes no difference to me. I did actually think of a redeeming feature. He wasn't as bad as that utter SOB Pinochet.

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Things are never really as simple as good or bad are they. I can't help wondering whether his courting of the poor in Venezuala was as much about gaining the popular vote as it was about any deeply held convictions. I also suspect it's fairly difficult to become leader of a country without being touched by a heavy dose of meglomania. But hey at least he did try and focus on the poor which is more than can be said for many Latin American politicians. i wonder whether one of his most important legacies was the impact his policies and approach had on neighbouring countries in Latin America. There has been a shift to the left amongst many countries in that region and I think he was probably in the vanguard of that. So whether he was a tool or not it wasn't all bad!

Solidarity :D

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Actually the more I read about him the more I like him. his heart was certainly in the right place.

Free education from daycare to university

5th in the world per capita university students

5th happiest population in the world

reduced poverty by 44%

reduced food imports by 60%

Reduced child mortality by 50%

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Chavez's 'democratically elected' hand-picked successor Maduro has been expounding his theory on how the cancer was caused by the enemies of Chavez (ie the US). It'd be funny if it wasn't. God help 'em .

perhaps he'd read about the various wys the CIA tried to kill Castro and took it from there.

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Actually the more I read about him the more I like him. his heart was certainly in the right place.

Free education from daycare to university

5th in the world per capita university students

5th happiest population in the world

reduced poverty by 44%

reduced food imports by 60%

Reduced child mortality by 50%

That all may well be true and its great news.

In South American child mortality, Venezuela is now only bettered by Ecuador, Columbia, Argentina, Uruguay and Chile. Chile has an infant mortality rate of just 1/3 that of Venezuela.

In the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela homicides up from 4,550 in 1999 to 20,000 in 2011 in a country with a population of 29 million, compared with a fall from 1,100 to 550 in England and Wales ( pop 58 million) over the same period. Truly the people's friend!

Of course, there is no evidence of a causal link in any of these figures but with Venezuela being a deeply religious country, maybe it was God not Chavez wot did it. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Venezuela

In Venezuela, a growing population Santeria followers has been growing since 2008. The rituals can cost 40,000 bolivars and include the slaughtering of a rooster, a chicken, or a goat.

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Actually the more I read about him the more I like him. his heart was certainly in the right place.

Free education from daycare to university

5th in the world per capita university students

5th happiest population in the world

reduced poverty by 44%

reduced food imports by 60%

Reduced child mortality by 50%

Think how much more could have been achieved without the egoistic grandstanding.

Not to mention how many Colombians were adversely affected.

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perhaps he'd read about the various wys the CIA tried to kill Castro and took it from there.

Possibly. It sounded more than slightly ridiculous to me, but you never know.

Actually the more I read about him the more I like him. his heart was certainly in the right place.

Free education from daycare to university

5th in the world per capita university students

5th happiest population in the world

reduced poverty by 44%

reduced food imports by 60%

Reduced child mortality by 50%

Self-produced govt. stats should always be taken with a healthy dose of scepticism, but this kind of stuff

5th happiest population in the world

is always utter nonsense.

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5th happiest population in the world

They aren't many RL fans in Venezuela. Coincidence? ;)

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Possibly. It sounded more than slightly ridiculous to me, but you never know.

some of the things they did to try to get rid of Castro made Austin Powers look like a documentary.

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