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flyingking

Nigel Wood- London must improve

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A referendum with parallel trials

Of all your barmy ideas, this has to be the absolute worst.

No good organisation regularly uses referenda for decision making or nor should it. We have a perfectly decent set up in place, where representatives from the clubs vote on these issues.

Clutching at straws isn't even in it, it's literally any way that you can think that would somehow bring back P&R, the 5m rule and winter rugby.

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it's literally any way that you can think that would somehow bring back P&R, the 5m rule and winter rugby.

Bringing "back" winter rugby? :blink:

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I preferred Winter rugby as well. Crowd increases since 1996 have not been that great considering:

1/ the game went fully pro in 1996

2/ most clubs have had new stadia since then

Perhaps crowds would have been much bigger if we'd stayed in winter?

Perhaps they wouldn't? There is no reason to suggest that they would have done, especially as without the Sky money we wouldn't have been able to go fully pro in 1996.

It's good to see that you now acknowledge the fact that we have gone fully pro because you conveniently ignore it during any discussions of the 5m rule.

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amongst who?

when would these referenda be invoked?

There's absolutely no reason in these days of the internet that fans of the game can't be consulted. I'm bombarded with emails from the RFL as I'm sure everyone else is. Why can't one of them ask for my opinion? Could it be because they don't want to know? As Lobby says, who's to say that with fully pro Super League - tours continuing, our top players guesting in Oz, but more to the point their top players guesting here the crowds wouldn't have expanded even more? As for the weather - TBH it's getting hard to tell winter from autumn, from summer from spring. Last year was terrible, we could hardly have been worse off playing in winter weatherwise.

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Why can't one of them ask for my opinion?

Because it's nowt to do with you unless your a shareholder. It's the clubs choice.

"Lobby" them (so to speak)

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Because it's nowt to do with you unless your a shareholder. It's the clubs choice.

"Lobby" them (so to speak)

Rubbish as usual Parky. Fans can vote with their feet, perhaps in the case of winter v summer they already have done? There's plenty more things to do other than watch football on a summer Sunday afernoon or a bank holiday weekend in summer than there are in winter. The RFL should have done market research - AFIK they didn't.

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Rubbish as usual Parky. Fans can vote with their feet.........

What you don't like to hear = Rubbish :D

Fans have voted with their feet they have voted for Summer Rugby and Superleague.

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There's absolutely no reason in these days of the internet that fans of the game can't be consulted. I'm bombarded with emails from the RFL as I'm sure everyone else is. Why can't one of them ask for my opinion? Could it be because they don't want to know? As Lobby says, who's to say that with fully pro Super League - tours continuing, our top players guesting in Oz, but more to the point their top players guesting here the crowds wouldn't have expanded even more? As for the weather - TBH it's getting hard to tell winter from autumn, from summer from spring. Last year was terrible, we could hardly have been worse off playing in winter weatherwise.

Undoubtedly your masterpiece.


how do you qualify as a fan?

There are people who put huge ammounts of money and have massive ammounts of responsibility within the game, surely that should mean that they should call the shots.

On what occassions should this plebiscite be invoked?

How will it be organised and overseen and where will the personnel and finance come from to put it into practice?

what about age-will children who are fans(whatever your definition is) be allowed to vote?

will all registred players be allowed to vote?

Who will decide when there is to be one?

How will the all too important wording of the plebiscite be organised and who will do it?

We have a governing body of professional sports administrators in place. getting rid of tem, or circumventing them, even if it were practical(see above for just a few reasons why it isn'), just because they take decisions you don't like is well...

how does the internet make this a good idea?

what if the vote comes to a conclusion that doesn't suit your agenda? Will it suddenly become a bad idea?

the above is a copy of a reply to a post by Lobbygobbler, it saved time.

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Rubbish as usual Parky. Fans can vote with their feet, perhaps in the case of winter v summer they already have done? There's plenty more things to do other than watch football on a summer Sunday afernoon or a bank holiday weekend in summer than there are in winter. The RFL should have done market research - AFIK they didn't.

It's an odd argument to make that fans have voted with their feet when crowds are higher now than they were during the winter years! Surely, crowds would inevitably have dropped as people had more to do?

All you have is idle speculation that you think they would have risen by more than they have. The problem with idle speculation is that it cannot be proved wrong and this is how you are acting on this thread. Everything that is not good in the game is due to summer rugby. I could just as easily state that had we not switched to summer crowds would have dwindled to less than 50 per game and I can't be proved wrong.

Did the RFU lobby the fans about going pro? Did the FA lobby the fans when they created the Premier League? Did County Cricket lobby the fans when it brought in two-divisions?

Leadership is what most companies require and in my opinion is far better than ruling by referendums. Take for instance summer rugby, the main reason you are suggesting they should have consulted the fans is because you suspect they would have voted against the move, for the sake of argument I'll agree with you. However, now we have moved to summer I would suggest a majority are in favour of summer rugby, sporting attitudes have clearly changed as evidenced by the much lower crowds this weekend than usual.

So you are left with an anomoly. You can easily make the argument that fans wouldn't have voted for summer rugby but now prefer it. Where do referendums fit into situations like this, where it appears that the ruling body knew better than the fans did. This is of course to be expected, people are naturally conservative and prefer the status quo than change, which would inevitably be disastrous for the sport.

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It's an odd argument to make that fans have voted with their feet when crowds are higher now than they were during the winter years! Surely, crowds would inevitably have dropped as people had more to do?

Yup, supporters have voted with their feet and turned up! Lots of us would like more to do so but progress has been made in building a supporter base. There are a lot of challenges to any professional/semi-professional sport, including the recession, but things are better than they were. Anyone who watched RL in the 60s and 70s, who has an ounce of perspective and a scintilla of intelligence will know that.

A lot of credit needs to go to BARLA, as well as the professional/semi-professional clubs for the gradual resurgence of the game. Now for a World Cup and internationals................A greater presence on terrestrial TV would help the sport's profile.

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Yup, supporters have voted with their feet and turned up! Lots of us would like more to do so but progress has been made in building a supporter base. There are a lot of challenges to any professional/semi-professional sport, including the recession, but things are better than they were. Anyone who watched RL in the 60s and 70s, who has an ounce of perspective and a scintilla of intelligence will know that.

A lot of credit needs to go to BARLA, as well as the professional/semi-professional clubs for the gradual resurgence of the game. Now for a World Cup and internationals................A greater presence on terrestrial TV would help the sport's profile.

yes

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Questions still remain about what value London still could be if they could compete and get some sort of a crowd in. But for me there is no question that abandoning the capital would be a bad thing for the game. It may be the case that if the Broncos go the SKY contract will not alter, but the effects of pulling the pro club out of the capital in other areas have to be considered as do the knock on effects. It's not a matter of London are completely worthless let's get rid (personal hatred then satisfied). We have a dozen worthless clubs up north on those parameters.as they can in London, and were very voiciferous about that earlier this month.

I struggle with your assertion that if the Super League club foolds the game would be giving up on London. The Skolars would exist as would Hemel (London area) and the amateur clubs who have been going about their business.You equate the health of the game in the Capital with that of the Super League club.

Certainly London is not a lost cause for Rugby League, I was there in 1996 and 1997 when the club was a qualified success but unfortunately since then the potential market has been seized by other sports, bad strategic decisions have been made and the rot at the club has gone on so long now that IMO it has become untenable.

The fundamental fact is that as with any product there is a limit to the number of rebrands and location shifts you can have . Call a Peanut Bar Marathon or Snickers, it remains a Peanut Bar and your either like Peanut Bars or not..

I was having this conversation on the train back from Hounslow on Saturday

RR - "People forget when we came back from Charlton in 1997 it was because we were told we were a West London club because of Fulham"

Fan - "Yes but we need to go to Leyton Orient"

RR - "But what evidence support the idea that there are more fans in East London"

Fan - The problem is the club has never stayed in one place long enough"

RR - But what your saying is contradictory.

We need to break the link in peoples minds between a failed Super League club and the game in the Capital. What concerns me is that the game and the RFL seem content to wait until London keels over in 2014 (or earlier if failing bto find a cut price tenancy elsewhere) instead of forcing the issue in London and engaging in damage limitation.

PS - Why has this drifted into a thread on internet ballots and Winter Rugby League and how is it relevant to London?

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I struggle with your assertion that if the Super League club folds the game would be giving up on London.

Thank you for your as always very well considered and interesting post. I'll only quote the bit where you ask me a question.

The answer is that I find the game to be strongest overall where there's a Superleague presence. Superleague pulls fans, Superleague pulls players, superleague clubs are at the head of junior development systems. Superleague creates interest.

The vast majority of pro players come from SL areas, they are the top of the pyramid.

Of course you can take away the superleague club, reduce the development system, disenfranchise London RL fans, send a negative signal to the wider game in London and still someone would play it.

But that's not the point.

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Thank you for your as always very well considered and interesting post. I'll only quote the bit where you ask me a question.

The answer is that I find the game to be strongest overall where there's a Superleague presence. Superleague pulls fans, Superleague pulls players, superleague clubs are at the head of junior development systems. Superleague creates interest.

The vast majority of pro players come from SL areas, they are the top of the pyramid.

Of course you can take away the superleague club, reduce the development system, disenfranchise London RL fans, send a negative signal to the wider game in London and still someone would play it.

But that's not the point.

Clearly it does in Leeds, Hull, Wigan, Wire, Perpignan etc but it doesn't in London.

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If we have the top league of ten we should sit down with our media partners and see what deals are out there.An alternative ten could be

1,bradford

2,huddersfield

3,hull fc

4,hull kr

5,leeds

6,london kiwis

7,london roos

8,st helens

9,warrington

10,wigan

Would be interesting to see what tv deal could be given for that. I bet if sky offer 2m a club this league could happen. My idea of london kiwis players from GB and NZ plus london roos players from GB and aus. This could create a better more depth Exiles team . England to have three match serries against them one game in yorkshire one in lancs and one in london.Two teams in london could give scorp for afew double headers against others. Could possible also build to three magic week ends one in london , one in yorks and one in lancs.

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Undoubtedly your masterpiece.


how do you qualify as a fan?

There are people who put huge ammounts of money and have massive ammounts of responsibility within the game, surely that should mean that they should call the shots.

On what occassions should this plebiscite be invoked?

How will it be organised and overseen and where will the personnel and finance come from to put it into practice?

what about age-will children who are fans(whatever your definition is) be allowed to vote?

will all registred players be allowed to vote?

Who will decide when there is to be one?

How will the all too important wording of the plebiscite be organised and who will do it?

We have a governing body of professional sports administrators in place. getting rid of tem, or circumventing them, even if it were practical(see above for just a few reasons why it isn'), just because they take decisions you don't like is well...

how does the internet make this a good idea?

what if the vote comes to a conclusion that doesn't suit your agenda? Will it suddenly become a bad idea?

the above is a copy of a reply to a post by Lobbygobbler, it saved time.

Put it this way Chris Union, whose club crowds were pathetic up to their going openly pro have expanded enormously - playing in winter. Ours since going full time pro with a superior product to theirs have expanded but nothing like to the same extent. All businesses no matter how big and how rich take heed of what their customers want. Are you really saying that the pro RL clubs are too rich and too powerful to need any input from those who support the game. As for who qualifies - what does it matter? Presumably the RFL has an emailing list - I'm certainly on it - it wouldn't kill them to ask the opinions of those on that list.

You complain about the treatment you get on the Fev board Chris TBH I'm not surprised - all you ever do is insult those who disagree with you. Calling people Sid and Doris Bonkers for starters is hardly likely to encourage them to support you is it. I would find it highly insulting that someone is implying I'm not right in the head!

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Put it this way Chris Union, whose club crowds were pathetic up to their going openly pro have expanded enormously - playing in winter. Ours since going full time pro with a superior product to theirs have expanded but nothing like to the same extent. All businesses no matter how big and how rich take heed of what their customers want. Are you really saying that the pro RL clubs are too rich and too powerful to need any input from those who support the game. As for who qualifies - what does it matter? Presumably the RFL has an emailing list - I'm certainly on it - it wouldn't kill them to ask the opinions of those on that list.

You complain about the treatment you get on the Fev board Chris TBH I'm not surprised - all you ever do is insult those who disagree with you. Calling people Sid and Doris Bonkers for starters is hardly likely to encourage them to support you is it. I would find it highly insulting that someone is implying I'm not right in the head!

It's a red herring to compare Union and League on this topic.

I remember when I first went down to the Stoop to watch London v Wire - I was shocked that basically it was a couple of crappy stands round a field. Once Union took their club game seriously, it was always going to be pretty easy to make some quite massive improvements. League already had the structures in place, and played in proper grounds (sort of!) - so we didn't have the level of improvements that Union could offer to their fans.

Our sport was already professional, the opportunity for improvement wasn't realistically there on the same scale imho.

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Put it this way Chris Union, whose club crowds were pathetic up to their going openly pro have expanded enormously - playing in winter. Ours since going full time pro with a superior product to theirs have expanded but nothing like to the same extent. All businesses no matter how big and how rich take heed of what their customers want. Are you really saying that the pro RL clubs are too rich and too powerful to need any input from those who support the game. As for who qualifies - what does it matter? Presumably the RFL has an emailing list - I'm certainly on it - it wouldn't kill them to ask the opinions of those on that list.

You complain about the treatment you get on the Fev board Chris TBH I'm not surprised - all you ever do is insult those who disagree with you. Calling people Sid and Doris Bonkers for starters is hardly likely to encourage them to support you is it. I would find it highly insulting that someone is implying I'm not right in the head!

who have I called Sid an Doris Bonkers? For the nth time if the cap fit wear it. Hardly a concerted campaign on this forum and in pms from a whole group of people. It wasn't confined to the Featherstone 'forum'. It seems that this is the only 'insult' that you bring up.

ut that's by the by now, altough I notice you are happy to dismiss someone else's comments as 'rubbish'.

I have presented a long, but even then incomplete list that addresses your's and lobbygobbler's self serving ideas about running the game by plebiscite, perhaps yu might like to answer the questions it poses.

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3,hull fc

4,hull kr

6,london kiwis

7,london roos

My idea of london kiwis players from GB and NZ plus london roos players from GB and aus. This could create a better more depth Exiles team .

RL is in such a corner that I like your thinking "outside the box".

But any drop of the league to 10 especially can't countenance two clubs in one city and two clubs in another. It's not my opinion, the RFL have always wanted a geographical spread for the game.

Also we need international test rugby league and so your exclusion of France puts to bed the only meaningful northern hemisphere pro RL international match we have a chance of staging.

Canetman seemed to give the definitive list for a radical shake up for me.

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But any drop of the league to 10 especially can't countenance two clubs in one city and two clubs in another. It's not my opinion, the RFL have always wanted a geographical spread for the game.

Parky, are you seriously suggesting that if there was the possibility of a second London team to enter SL and both London teams were viable, that the RFL would not entertain the second team because there's already a SL team in London!!!!!

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1. (RL) since going full time pro with a superior product to theirs (RU)

2. All businesses no matter how big and how rich take heed of what their customers want.

1. It's a gross assumption that RL is "superior".

2. The RFL/SLE have taken heed of what their customers want and it's big time professional Rugby League with the likes of leeds, Saints, Wigan, Wire etc battering the heck out of each other.

Look at the attendances since 1996 which show which game most rugby people consider to be superior - Union of course.

Look at the attendances that have flown up for SL and are collapsing in CC to find out what the customers in our niche market want.

You've tried to find another way to push your agenda but it really does take the biscuit, do you expect RL fans across the board to vote in great numbers for the things you want to see???

You yourself said about "voting with their feet" a line that badly failed as RL fans have voted for SL with their feet.

Your flogging your dead one trick pony again.

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Not got time, nor inclination to trawl through all the pages.

In all of this, is there any update on the ground situation with the Broncos?

FWIW I read this morning that Wasps are having prelim talks with Brentford re the latters proposed 20k new ground. Seems they are looking to do it on a 50/50 ownership basis and the new guy at Wasps has some serious coin. Only mention it as there has often been talk about Broncos moving to Brentford.

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If we have the top league of ten we should sit down with our media partners and see what deals are out there.An alternative ten could be

1,bradford

2,huddersfield

3,hull fc

4,hull kr

5,leeds

6,london kiwis

7,london roos

8,st helens

9,warrington

10,wigan

Would be interesting to see what tv deal could be given for that. I bet if sky offer 2m a club this league could happen. My idea of london kiwis players from GB and NZ plus london roos players from GB and aus. This could create a better more depth Exiles team . England to have three match serries against them one game in yorkshire one in lancs and one in london.Two teams in london could give scorp for afew double headers against others. Could possible also build to three magic week ends one in london , one in yorks and one in lancs.

Who is going to support an Australian or Kiwi side based in London?

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Parky, are you seriously suggesting that if there was the possibility of a second London team to enter SL and both London teams were viable, that the RFL would not entertain the second team because there's already a SL team in London!!!!!

At one time he argued that a second London SL team was inevitable, now the wind has changed.

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Put it this way Chris Union, whose club crowds were pathetic up to their going openly pro have expanded enormously - playing in winter. Ours since going full time pro with a superior product to theirs have expanded but nothing like to the same extent.

Once again you are really being selective with your facts.

There is nothing about winter that created or aided the expansion, the expansion came from the fact that they had never taken the club game seriously. They essentially created a proper league system for the first time off the back of huge national support for Rugby Union, with internationals etc. This has been replicated in other parts of the world where Union has treated club rugby seriously for the first time, look at Australia for instance. The NRL has seen growth but nothing compared to the growth of domestic Rugby Union. This is not in any way to downplay the NRL as like us the strength was already in the club game and Union exploited an already large grassroots and international network.

RL in this country couldn't be more different than the RU Premiership, our game had been all about the clubs since 1895. Our biggest successes have always been in the club games. We created growth from an arguably already saturated market and a bigger growth than NRL clubs have managed (staying in their winter) since 1995.

What I find the dishonest about your reasoning is the fact that you treat your own speculation about what might have happened winter as if it is fact. You then oddly use this speculation to try and make out like summer rugby has been unsuccessful in comparison to it. We have no way of knowing what would have happened in winter and it is far from guaranteed that there would have been the same growth.

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