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flyingking

Nigel Wood- London must improve

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People here seem to forget that if the Broncos go, there's still the Skolars.

What people who are loving the possible contraction (again) of the pro game are doing on here is saying stuff like this, so I am surprised you repeat it?

It's like saying if salford had gone under "Oh don't worry there's still Swinton".

Crusaders went under in South Wales but we "always have the scorpions" who are third tier on low crowds conceding 50 points a game and going nowhere.

Gateshead are still there, watched by three men and a dog struggling to keep the RL flag going when once they attracted 4,000 fans and came sixth in Superleague.

If Leeds dissapeared somehow are we OK because Bramley still play north of the river?

It's not about flags on a map it's about the strength of the game and the loss of London Broncos will see the game decline in London but "that's OK we still have........"

I have Solly on ignore but I note in a quote (I'm a poet and don't know it) he says RL in south Wales is going downhill.

You can't take a professional club out of a RL set up and expect it to stay still let alone still go forward.

Nor can you retreat to the north and expect SKY to say "fantastic here's a bigger contract".

I don't know what people are thinking here maybe "If London go maybe my club will get in Superleague".

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I haven't mentioned Featherstone once on this thread. As for the above statement I regard it as an insult.

Best thing RL can do is pull up the drawbridge and try and strengthen from within.

Tro, I am really really sorry that.........You once said my posts made you physically sick :lol:

So stop the boo hooing :D

How on earth do you think that "pulling up the drawbridge" enables Rugby League to "strengthen from within"??

Where will the moat be dug? Around central East Lancs? then another around Mid west Yorkshire, then one last one in Humberside?

Three small areas of the north of England where RL has any sort of a presence beyond a minority sport. Outside of that it's struggling badly.

We had a long debate on the SKY contract. It's now that £90.000.000 that underpins the game and stops it collapsing, yet you'd offer SKY a smaller regional game, in which too many clubs would chase too few fans and players.

I couldn't for a moment imagine the game managing to go forwards let alone stand still.

You do need to consider that if the game contracts as TFIL suggests SL may go to twelve. There'd be no room for Rovers then.

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What people who are loving the possible contraction (again) of the pro game are doing on here is saying stuff like this, so I am surprised you repeat it?

It's like saying if salford had gone under "Oh don't worry there's still Swinton".

Crusaders went under in South Wales but we "always have the scorpions" who are third tier on low crowds conceding 50 points a game and going nowhere.

Gateshead are still there, watched by three men and a dog struggling to keep the RL flag going when once they attracted 4,000 fans and came sixth in Superleague.

If Leeds dissapeared somehow are we OK because Bramley still play north of the river?

It's not about flags on a map it's about the strength of the game and the loss of London Broncos will see the game decline in London but "that's OK we still have........"

I have Solly on ignore but I note in a quote (I'm a poet and don't know it) he says RL in south Wales is going downhill.

You can't take a professional club out of a RL set up and expect it to stay still let alone still go forward.

Nor can you retreat to the north and expect SKY to say "fantastic here's a bigger contract".

I don't know what people are thinking here maybe "If London go maybe my club will get in Superleague".

It's rather convenient for you to be able to reply to my points but not be able to see my answer.

It's better than "let's pay millions to keep a failing club afloat" and then whoops we'll have to cut back on Community Development officers to pay for it. That's exactly what the RFL has had to do recently, now if only they hadn't lost £700,000 on the Crusaders debacle then they might not have had to do it.

But you just can't see that the Welsh domestic league was stronger before Crusaders came along than it is now. Crusaders' "rise" didn't add as much to it as their demise took away.

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I didn't say it was perfect though did I? How did the Welsh league go on in the 80's and 90's? We have Welshmen playing RL professionally *through choice*, not as a second choice either today...when has that ever happened? Of course it isn't perfect....what is?

GT switched codes 4 years ago....hardly an age. Who knows what may happen with a genuinely Welsh RL team?

It's better now than it was but it's taken a step backwards of late. It may move forwards again in the future.

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It's better now than it was but it's taken a step backwards of late. It may move forwards again in the future.

2 steps forward one backwards, is still going forward. It might not be incredible but its more than we ever had before.

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Tro, I am really really sorry that.........You once said my posts made you physically sick :lol:

So stop the boo hooing :D

How on earth do you think that "pulling up the drawbridge" enables Rugby League to "strengthen from within"??

Where will the moat be dug? Around central East Lancs? then another around Mid west Yorkshire, then one last one in Humberside?

Three small areas of the north of England where RL has any sort of a presence beyond a minority sport. Outside of that it's struggling badly.

We had a long debate on the SKY contract. It's now that £90.000.000 that underpins the game and stops it collapsing, yet you'd offer SKY a smaller regional game, in which too many clubs would chase too few fans and players.

I couldn't for a moment imagine the game managing to go forwards let alone stand still.

You do need to consider that if the game contracts as TFIL suggests SL may go to twelve. There'd be no room for Rovers then.

By pulling up the drawbridge I mean settling for what we've got. Realising that as an old enemy of mine used to say "what can't speak can't lie" Forced expansion has been tried all over England and Wales and it clearly doesn't work. Scorpions attracted 329 fans the other week. Crusaders about twice that number. I'd love people to flock to our game and demand a pro club, but until they do, or we find a benefactor with bottomless pockets - like Abramovich say - we need to consolidate what we've got and allow the heartland clubs (including Catalan) to grow stronger. If we can have a successful World Cup - and by successful I mean win it then perhaps with the higher profile this brings the demand for expansion clubs witll come. There would be room for Rovers, and Halifax and Leigh and Sheffield in a two division comp with 10 teams in each division. But again that's for the future when the game has got its act together again.

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Posted · Hidden by John Drake, March 14, 2013 - No reason given

No I regard being described as a "one trick pony who only cares about my club and not the game" as an insult - because I know it isn't so.

I also regard being described as "a small minded parochialist" as an insult, but it's what I've come to expect from you Chris. You don't seem to be able to have a genuine dispute about the future of the game without descending into gratuitous nastiness.

you weren't describd as a small minded patochialist: but if the cap fits...

if you want real insults look no urther than theoutput of the likes of your club mates Lowfield and Old Rover.

I consider the notion of 'retreating to the heartlands' small minded and parochial.

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2 steps forward one backwards, is still going forward. It might not be incredible but its more than we ever had before.

I agree with what you and NL say

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By pulling up the drawbridge I mean settling for what we've got. Forced expansion has been tried all over England and Wales and it clearly doesn't work. Scorpions attracted 329 fans the other week. Crusaders about twice that number. I'd love people to flock to our game and demand a pro club, but until they do, we need to consolidate what we've got and allow the heartland clubs (including Catalan) to grow stronger.

So we're still talking :) thank goodness for that!

I am lost here. You say Scorpions attracted just over 300 fans last week. Did you know Hunslet attracted just over 300 fans this week??

You say Crusaders got over 600 fans last week.

I am again lost because the Oldham/Rochdale derby attracted LESS than 600 fans this week.

It's clear that the game is weak in Wales and it's clear the game is weak in Hunslet/Oldham/Rochdale.

Your equating "heartlands" with strong and "Non-heartlands" with weak. It just does not work like that does it.

Now how strong are London?

When they were winning games they were good for 5,000 fans.

When Salford were winning games so were they, although they got more away fans than London.

Less than 2000 watched salford lose to London, and less than 2000 watched London lose to HKR.

So "London doesn't work" as it's "forced expansion" but Salford is somehow working?

Can you see the double standards here??

How strong is RL in Manchester/Salford? How strong is it in London??.

I think you'll find far more people playing RL in London and the south east than you will in Salford/Manchester??

Yet you reason that we should just give London up to concentrate where we are strong??

You see RL is weak all over the country apart from Superleague. In Superleague areas the game is a lot stronger. Hull, Calder, Leeds, South bradford/hudds/halifax, and Mid east lancs.

You say "Expansion has been tried all over england and wales and it doesn't work"

Here is a list of places where RL also doesn't work......

Rochdale, Swinton, Liverpool, Manchester, Chorley, Blackpoool, Oldham, Workington, Whitehaven, Hunslet, keighley, Bramley, York, Scarborough, Huyton, Doncaster etc...

Did you know Gateshead attracted 4,000 crowds to their games in Superleague?

Did you know Crusaders first big game in SL against Saints attracted 6,000 fans??

Have you see that people on here precict Featherstone to get about 5,000 if they get in Superleague???

Did you know that there are more top professionals in the game from Wales than from Wakefield?

More top professionals in the game from London than from Salford??

You can tell me different, I don't want to be accusatory, but you talk about Halifax, leigh and Sheffield in a Superleague set up?

Did you know Leigh's ageing crowd is dropping and they have to be propped up by a supporters group?

Did you know that even after nearly 30 years Sheffield can only get a 1,000 crowd and still don't produce top professionals.

Again you seem to equate success entirely to being within reach of the M62 and failure to be anywhere other than the M62.

It's just not true is it?

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Trojan can you please define the "heartlands"? You have Sheffield in your two tier SL yet surely by your own description they are not "heartlands" but forced expansion. Could you also define "strong" whilst you are at it, where in your opinion is "strong" at this moment in time?.

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NW Crusaders seem to be building on decent foundations now. Which is odd given their start in life but if it leads to bona fide clubs in the end it may work out.

As for people criticising Crusaders & Scorpions gates....what is expected? Barcelona style sell outs every week?

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As for people criticising Crusaders & Scorpions gates....what is expected? Barcelona style sell outs every week?

Les Catalans game in Barcelona against Warrington gave them a massive gate and the M62 mob criticised that!!

Nobody is interested in the Rugby code in places like Spain and Italy apparently?

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So we're still talking :) thank goodness for that!

I am lost here. You say Scorpions attracted just over 300 fans last week. Did you know Hunslet attracted just over 300 fans this week??

You say Crusaders got over 600 fans last week.

I am again lost because the Oldham/Rochdale derby attracted LESS than 600 fans this week.

It's clear that the game is weak in Wales and it's clear the game is weak in Hunslet/Oldham/Rochdale.

Your equating "heartlands" with strong and "Non-heartlands" with weak. It just does not work like that does it.

Now how strong are London?

When they were winning games they were good for 5,000 fans.

When Salford were winning games so were they, although they got more away fans than London.

Less than 2000 watched salford lose to London, and less than 2000 watched London lose to HKR.

So "London doesn't work" as it's "forced expansion" but Salford is somehow working?

Can you see the double standards here??

How strong is RL in Manchester/Salford? How strong is it in London??.

I think you'll find far more people playing RL in London and the south east than you will in Salford/Manchester??

Yet you reason that we should just give London up to concentrate where we are strong??

You see RL is weak all over the country apart from Superleague. In Superleague areas the game is a lot stronger. Hull, Calder, Leeds, South bradford/hudds/halifax, and Mid east lancs.

You say "Expansion has been tried all over england and wales and it doesn't work"

Here is a list of places where RL also doesn't work......

Rochdale, Swinton, Liverpool, Manchester, Chorley, Blackpoool, Oldham, Workington, Whitehaven, Hunslet, keighley, Bramley, York, Scarborough, Huyton, Doncaster etc...

Did you know Gateshead attracted 4,000 crowds to their games in Superleague?

Did you know Crusaders first big game in SL against Saints attracted 6,000 fans??

Have you see that people on here precict Featherstone to get about 5,000 if they get in Superleague???

Did you know that there are more top professionals in the game from Wales than from Wakefield?

More top professionals in the game from London than from Salford??

You can tell me different, I don't want to be accusatory, but you talk about Halifax, leigh and Sheffield in a Superleague set up?

Did you know Leigh's ageing crowd is dropping and they have to be propped up by a supporters group?

Did you know that even after nearly 30 years Sheffield can only get a 1,000 crowd and still don't produce top professionals.

Again you seem to equate success entirely to being within reach of the M62 and failure to be anywhere other than the M62.

It's just not true is it?

Nothing proves a point more than incredibly selective stats.

We got 16,000 to a game in Tatarstan and 16,000 to a World Cup semi-final in the North West. Therefore the game is as strong in Tatarstan as the North West of England.

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Les Catalans game in Barcelona against Warrington gave them a massive gate and the M62 mob criticised that!!

Nobody is interested in the Rugby code in places like Spain and Italy apparently?

Yes because there were clearly 17,000 Spanish people at the game weren't there?

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London is a place of "events" and sports fans in London can watch a sporting event probably once a week. If you're going to pitch your sport at this level then clearly you have to have something to offer, and by pitching your name as London, I think subliminally your saying a game at the London Broncos is an event, where every other week some hot shot team descends on the capital to thrash it out in front of 10's of thousands of fans.

Clearly SL doesn't offer this, in fact RL only offers this level of event twice a year, once in London, once in Manchester. So the mistake was to over pitch RL in London to a city used to many tiers of sporting opportunity. London, as a name just says the wrong thing.

My second point is that RL is a grass roots sport. In any given town or city where RL is played the link between the roots of the game and the professional level is as close as it ever was regardless of what we call it these days.

In London there are plenty teams playing the game and plenty of people interested in it but the professional club has to be as close to this community as possible not still pitching itself at the wrong punter.

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I lived in Wood Green for a few years shortly before Skolars went pro.

The crucial difference between the Stoop and Nee River is that the New River is 10 min walk to a zone 3 tube station, whilst The Stoop is a ten min walk but only to a zone 6 train station

I did the times a little while ago so I'm reposting now with 'added New River' ...

Taking the wonderful Chandos pub on St Martin's Lane as the starting point and asking the TfL journey planner how long it would take to get there on a Saturday afternoon these are the official timings:

Loftus Road - 49 minutes

Craven Cottage - 55 minutes

Griffin Park - 60 minutes

The Valley - 50 minutes

The New Den - 40 minutes

Selhurst Park - 51 minutes

Matchroom Stadium - 50 minutes

Fans' Stadium - 65 minutes

Priestfield, Gillingham - 90 minutes

The Stoop - 60 minutes

New River (Skolars) – 53 minutes

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Yes because there were clearly 17,000 Spanish people at the game weren't there?

Mostly, yes. They'd probably prefer to be called Catalonian though.

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Les Catalans game in Barcelona against Warrington gave them a massive gate and the M62 mob criticised that!!

Who criticised what?

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London is a place of "events" and sports fans in London can watch a sporting event probably once a week. If you're going to pitch your sport at this level then clearly you have to have something to offer, and by pitching your name as London, I think subliminally your saying a game at the London Broncos is an event, where every other week some hot shot team descends on the capital to thrash it out in front of 10's of thousands of fans.

Clearly SL doesn't offer this, in fact RL only offers this level of event twice a year, once in London, once in Manchester. So the mistake was to over pitch RL in London to a city used to many tiers of sporting opportunity. London, as a name just says the wrong thing.

My second point is that RL is a grass roots sport. In any given town or city where RL is played the link between the roots of the game and the professional level is as close as it ever was regardless of what we call it these days.

In London there are plenty teams playing the game and plenty of people interested in it but the professional club has to be as close to this community as possible not still pitching itself at the wrong punter.

here here

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Who criticised what?

A series of people have regularly laughed at the idea that Rugby league could ever catch on outside the M62.

Lyndsay thought Rome could one day have a Rugby SL side. Italy HAS a history of RL and the country does love it's Rugby but Union are doing well not us.

He was roundly mocked yet he had a point, Italy play six nations.

Paris and North Wales got thumping crowds, Fulham started with a big crowd, Barcelona had a big attendance.

All these attendances have been dismissed as free tickets, novelties etc etc etc.

Why they all fail is the same reason Salford, Bradford, Wakefield, Oldham, etc fail - a lack of the neccessary sustained investment, and NOT because people outside M62 land don't like the game.

That's the point I make to clear up any confusion!

That's also IMHO of course :D

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RL expansion has only been really happening since the mid to late 90's. ie not sticking random teams here and there, it failing then declaring 'no one likes RL except in bits of West Yorkshire.

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Mostly, yes. They'd probably prefer to be called Catalonian though.

There was a very small amount of Spanish people there. There was a majority of French Catalonian fans but not Spanish.

It's no different than claiming Edinburgh can get good crowds for RL when 60,000 fans turned up there. The reality being that the vast vast majority travelled in from outside.

I'm not knocking it as an event btw, just pointing out how ludicrous it is to use as an example of potential support in a place like Barcelona.

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I lived in Wood Green for a few years shortly before Skolars went pro.

The crucial difference between the Stoop and Nee River is that the New River is 10 min walk to a zone 3 tube station, whilst The Stoop is a ten min walk but only to a zone 6 train station

I hope you and GJ don't mind me butting into your TFL debate but maybe you would like to hear from someone who would like to go to more top level rugby league in London? I have lived in SE London for 16 years and have been to the Stoop three times and once to Griffin Park. For the The Stoop it's an easy journey, changing at Clapham Junction for a Twickenham train, or for Griffin Park to Richmond (I think) where I got a bus, which was quite a pleasant journey past Key Gardens. Personally I hate the tube and when using the TFL journey planner do my darndest to avoid it. Especially in summer.

A ten minute walk in Wood Green (any decent pubs awaiting?) at the end of a long depressing tube journey fills me with dread. I know even uttering the word "Twickenham" is distasteful but, as leafy and rah rah as it is in those parts, at least there are some decent pubs. Even the Wetherspoons is pretty good!

What keeps me from going to see the Broncos is that they are ######. I will try to get along when they are at home to Warrington or Wigan but if I knew those were going to be good close games I would definitely be going, with as many friends that I could drag along.

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