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flyingking

Nigel Wood- London must improve

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Rugby Union, anything south of Nottingham.

and North of Leeds with the exception of a small struggling enclave in Cumbria

oh and in between there as well: in terms of participation, wealth, presence in schools, facilities even down to a fairly basic level-My nearest club is Leodensians-just the other side of the woods from my house. I was out there for a walk this morning. They re pretty low down the union food chain, but their facilities including multi pitches and a cricket section are excellent, also within walking distance is the magnificent West Park complex.

how many fee paying schools in the north or anywhere else in the country play rugby league? Answer 1 Leeds grammar school alongside its Union department.

How many comprehensive schools play Union-well in the North that will be most of them.

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If we continue with our efforts, I think RL is on the cusp of a massive global expansion in many countries. Yes many of them are small time operations but, as you said, over time things can grow bigger and better. The NRL and the Australian game in general is the shining light in this regard.

Indeed. At one time Ice hockey was not a major sport in the US. The Canadians managed to make it so.

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and North of Leeds with the exception of a small struggling enclave in Cumbria

oh and in between there as well: in terms of participation, wealth, presence in schools, facilities even down to a fairly basic level-My nearest club is Leodensians-just the other side of the woods from my house. I was out there for a walk this morning. They re pretty low down the union food chain, but their facilities including multi pitches and a cricket section are excellent, also within walking distance is the magnificent West Park complex.

how many fee paying schools in the north or anywhere else in the country play rugby league? Answer 1 Leeds grammar school alongside its Union department.

How many comprehensive schools play Union-well in the North that will be most of them.

L'Ange - pretty sure that most comprehensives in NW England do not play RU - rather RL and soccer or just soccer (if outside the heartlands). When I went to school in the late 80s in Leigh, only one school played occasional RU, whilst all of them played RL (and soccer). We played a couple of teams in Bury and Bolton too and I dont think they played RU.

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L'Ange - pretty sure that most comprehensives in NW England do not play RU - rather RL and soccer or just soccer (if outside the heartlands). When I went to school in the late 80s in Leigh, only one school played occasional RU, whilst all of them played RL (and soccer). We played a couple of teams in Bury and Bolton too and I dont think they played RU.

and what about the rest of the north? Check what Keighley said. And his isn't the 80s this is now. What about the fee paying schools? My nephew attends Bolton School- guess what kind of Rugby they play.

check out these union schools comps in areas where apparently union is strong in the NW and ask yourself whether rugby league has anything to compare wit it. There is even a floodlit comp FFS

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and what about the rest of the north? Check what Keighley said. And his isn't the 80s this is now. What about the fee paying schools? My nephew attends Bolton School- guess what kind of Rugby they play.

check out these union schools comps in areas where apparently union is strong in the NW and ask yourself whether rugby league has anything to compare wit it. There is even a floodlit comp FFS

Agree about fee paying schools but I was talking about comps

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Agree about fee paying schools but I was talking about comps

I'm talkimg about schools

http://www.schoolsrugby.co.uk/Competitions.aspx

des it not bother you that fee paying schools dont play rugbleague? It bothers me. We go on about rugb leaue being 'for everyone', yet thedemography of union is fa broader tan rugnby league

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I don't see that RL can't spread and develop in the same way and seems to be slowly doing so. Sports can spread to new areas successfully. Rugby ( League nor Union) has done so in the past. The game was originally an England only sport.

The idea playing Rugby per se is on the way up would seem to massively conflict with the way in which many clubs especially Union have shed teams because people no longer want to play in the same numbers.

Far from being on the rise, the game of Rugby has been on the decrease. True of amateur soccer as well.

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http://www.rfu.com/~/media/files/2013/touchline/touchline%20march%20web.ashx

1,500 state secondary schools play competitive union. Even taking into account tat they lie, how does this compare with schools rugby league, and how many of those 1,500 are in the North of England, or in te so called heartlands(which contitute a smll part of the north)?

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Rugby Union, anything south of Nottingham.

and in keighley apparently

http://www.thetelegr...ugby_union_map/

Oakbank as you know is state school

what are yur impression of Keighley RUFC's failities at Utley? How do they compare wih amateu ugy league facilities int he area

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'The Parksider' timestamp='1363157429' post='2656446']

RL was an M62 sport at one time but now is played all over the country. That's a fact. Ask them in Hemel and Harringay

London is seen as important because it heads the south east player development system and not primarily because it attracts a bigger TV contract, which it may or may not do

Then I suggest you ask those form Hemel, Skolars, South London storm et al on this board whether or not they will be continuing without the Broncos. I suspect they will. One oif the big issues over the years has been the indifference shown by amateur clubs to the professional club

.

RL is watched all over Britain so it's watched nationally. it gets good viewing figures, people like the game.

You could say the same for American Football and several other sports.

It isn't widely played because it's too tough a sport and the vast majority of likely players are already playing union..

Rubbish it's not played in schools down here, as with the American Football example, if you want to play the game you actively have to seek a club to play it at. In the M62 zone you play at school and its a more natural progession to the amateur ranks. And as a Southerner it's distinclty patronising to claim Rugby League is tough to play. Having played in our version of Thugby Union at my comprehensive ,I have no doubt I could have been an effective forward if I had the chance to play league and i am by no means alone.down here in that respect..

London's problems are primarily poor performance, in the past they have achieved higher table rankings and even got to Wembley.

Prior to last season the clubs lowest average attendance figures were in 1999 when we got to Wembley, It's not all about performance on the field as you should realise if you have been reading the multitude of articles on London on this forum.

London as a city has a massive draw with an unlimited appetite for sport but RL only offers the glitteratti of London 1 yearly event to get their teeth into.

Watching the Bronco's should be pitched to a different punter, not the same bunch. The corporate customer has deep pockets but a lot of choice and you can't pitch a fairly low rent RL club at these people just because there might be a lot of them.

Can you explain this paragraph to me as London does not chase corporate Tail. It chases "Working class" fans, and anay and all soccer fans. it deliberately targets the lower end of the social spectrum whith the spinoff that you now have, if comments I hear at home games are anything to go by some amongst the dwindling band of fans would probably welcome Skrewdriver as a post match covers band.....

This of course ignores the fact that Whitton next to leafy Twickers is very working class and that famous left winger Kevin Sinfield himself has stated Rugby League should be open to all classes. In truth the success of sports such as Rugby Union and American Football has been on the basis of being a family game that it the anti-soccer (i.e. offering a different experience). Our Chairman, the ex-Charlton Athletic director - who advertised discounted tickets for charlton fans near the end of last season - sees the club as an off season hobby for Soccer fans and as we have even read on this forum. Given the choice between a Rugby League game and a soccer game. they go to their soccer club.

Why our hapless CEO gets the blame for being "his masters voice" and implementing the views of his chairman and employer, I would put down to fans not willing to face the reality that all decisions at the club are made and signed off by our chairman. It's said he subsidises our entertainment and has done since Ian Lenargan left but that's if you call the clubs decline on and off the field as "entertainment". The fact is he has run the club down to the extent that it will leave a toxic legacy for the game in the south.

I'm glad someone has finally come out and said this, but I don't honestly believe the RFL would ever throw them out of the league unless they opted to go like Crusaders.

Whilst there is no love for the club amongst other members of Super League, You are correct in that the probable outcome will be London's demise played out in front of sub-four figure crowds in 2014 "somewhere" in East London. A demise that no doubt has the sage of Newport salivating with twitching fingers in his Sunday Times office eager to pen the obituary.

What is not mentioned in thius thread is the effect of the failure of London Broncos to become an accepted minority sport within the London area has had upon the game as a whole because we are posting about professional sport here not some amateurs. Believe me this is reflected in sponsorship and will be in the next TV Contract. Some Super League chairman (Hudgell and Lenargan) do understand the strategic importance of a well run professional club in London. However that's not what we have got and it's important to remember its not just about a winning team or "development" that contitutes a well run club.

I also think that fans like watching relegation battles too rather than meaningless second half of season games.

We are in agreement - again - the two biggest turnouts for London in terms of away support were at Crusaders in 2006 and Widnes in 2004 which was a vital relegation game where we had about 250 which is not a lot by Northern standards but is by London standards. Its also true to note that the biggest marginal increase in the average attendances over the years has actually come in relegation struggle seasons.

Unfortunately League went down the alien route of franchising which allows underperforming organisations not to be replaced by up and coming organisations as in real life but instead creates a welfare state for them allowing underperforming organisations to contuinue to be underperforming living off the benefits given to them by the game as a whole whilst contributing little towards increasing the games profile. The Broncos from 2009 onwards are a classic case of this for if P&R was still in existence would the club be in the decrepid state it is in now, as action would have to have been taken one way or the other.

You and I agree on this but good luck in getting certain other people to acknowledge Franchisings failure

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IThe USA invented modern baseball and it was played there alone for ,many decades but the spread of the game is growing. Japanese baseball is a hugely succesful fully pro league with huge stadia jammed with huge crowds.

I don't see that RL can't spread and develop in the same way and seems to be slowly doing so. Sports can spread to new areas successfully. Rugby ( League nor Union) has done so int the past. The game was originally an England only sport.

Yes - at last some sense! (Baseball is also a major sport in Cuba - in fact Castro had a trial with one of the big league sides in the US)

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There is a difference between " It can" and " it has" . League CAN be successful at the highest level nationally and internationally but unless I am very much mistaken, it is not true to say that it HAS been successful at the highest level nationally and internationally.

I wonder why that is?

- class war?

- licencing?

- incompetence at the RFL/clubs/etc since 1895?

- lack of P and R?

- insular aussies?

- non competitive scrums?

- the war-time Vichy govt?

- the weather?

- media conspiracy?

As John Belushi said in The Blues Brothers when confronted in the sewer under the Hotel Palace Ballroom by the gun-toting woman he jilted at the altar, "IT'S NOT MY FAULT!"

No wonder Clare Balding complained about the chippy attitude of some fans.

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I wonder why that is?

- class war?

- licencing?

- incompetence at the RFL/clubs/etc since 1895?

- lack of P and R?

- insular aussies?

- non competitive scrums?

- the war-time Vichy govt?

- the weather?

- media conspiracy?

As John Belushi said in The Blues Brothers when confronted in the sewer under the Hotel Palace Ballroom by the gun-toting woman he jilted at the altar, "IT'S NOT MY FAULT!"

No wonder Clare Balding complained about the chippy attitude of some fans.

That was in France. Don't forget the century plus long ambitions of the various RFUs around the world to strangle any attempt at establishing RL at birth.

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There is a difference between " It can" and " it has" . League CAN be successful at the highest level nationally and internationally but unless I am very much mistaken, it is not true to say that it HAS been successful at the highest level nationally and internationally.

I wonder why that is?

- class war?

- licencing?

- incompetence at the RFL/clubs/etc since 1895?

- lack of P and R?

- insular aussies?

- non competitive scrums?

- the war-time Vichy govt?

- the weather?

- media conspiracy?

As John Belushi said in The Blues Brothers when confronted in the sewer under the Hotel Palace Ballroom by the gun-toting woman he jilted at the altar, "IT'S NOT MY FAULT!"

No wonder Clare Balding complained about the chippy attitude of some fans.

all of above plus the chronic culture of parochialism.

the stereotypes perpetuated and enjoyed by those within and without the game, which many people have found and find off putting.

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In 1995 we had the second most popular pro winter sport at club level. Today since Union went pro we don't even have the distinction of being the second most supported sport at any time of the year. Union has usurped our spot and we've let them by vacating the space. Some of the reasons for the shift to summer were that we wouldn't have soccer and Union commanding the headlines - so there'd be more room for us - but every summer there's something. This summer there's Ashes cricket and the Lions are touring Oz. Next summer will be the European soccer championships, last summer was the Olympics. Plus soccer has almost become a year round preoccupation with the media anyway. But the fact is that Union has remained a winter sport and at club level has increased its crowds and its media status enormously and we haven't. The increase in media status has IMO been at our expense. Plus of course we've lost the Aussie tour, home and away, we've lost the advantage of our top players being able to guest with Aussie clubs. All round I'd say that summer rugby has been a huge mistake. Whether reverting to winter would be a cure is debateable - the damage has been done. But I reckon the move to summer was a bad one all round.

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We didn't 'let' Union do anything. RU was already much bigger than RL, even when it was 'amateur'. Having a pro division didn't take that much doing and it would have been hard NOT to make it reasonably successful - look at all the coverage and money they get and they still aren't that far ahead of club RL.

Was RU just doing to sit back and do nothing? No and why would they? They have a very good support base that just needed telling the games were on, unlike RL where apathy and excuses rule.

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yes you've probably included some that continued under other names too. The point about South Wales is that there are plenty of people there who are actively hostile to Rugby League. I'll never forget the smirk on the face of the Welsh guy who told me about Caridff/Bridgend folding - I was on holiday in Folkstone - he was clearly delighted.

I don't like the fact the RL at pro level seems to be confined to it's birth counties, but the fact remains that every attempt so far to establish the game elsewhere at pro level has turned out to be a disaster.

there are a lot of people in England who would have the similar attitude as the smirker. Plenty in the so called heartlands.

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That was in France. Don't forget the century plus long ambitions of the various RFUs around the world to strangle any attempt at establishing RL at birth.

Quite so. and more - I'm sure the northern climate will have been cited also, and now someone on here is blaming the switch to "Summer" rugby.

All these points have been given as excuses for the fact that our game is where it is today. And yes, there is no doubt some truth in all of that...plus L'Angelo's points above.

Some of these points we can dispute, some we can't dispute, some we can do nothing about..and just maybe some we CAN do something about. But whinging and whining about it ain't gonna get anywhere. The fact is that unions fans support union in all its dimensions unlike, , as Johnoco says, "...RL where apathy and excuses rule."

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there are a lot of people in England who would have the similar attitude as the smirker. Plenty in the so called heartlands.

and plenty within our game itself, I suspect.

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and plenty within our game itself, I suspect.

I don't suppose the game could have gone 100 years restricted geographically so heavily and being so club orientated without it attracting the local game for local folk, we have what we hold siege mentality parochialist attitudes.

TBF we had a loyal audience that saw the game through the old times, now the game is asking them to move over there's bound to be dissent. It's understandable to a point.

Only to a point??

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I don't suppose the game could have gone 100 years restricted geographically so heavily and being so club orientated without it attracting the local game for local folk, we have what we hold siege mentality parochialist attitudes.

TBF we had a loyal audience that saw the game through the old times, now the game is asking them to move over there's bound to be dissent. It's understandable to a point.

Only to a point??

A loyal but small local audience

The people of the local game for local folk mentality don't need to move over: they need to open their minds and their other eye

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A loyal but small local audience

The people of the local game for local folk mentality don't need to move over: they need to open their minds and their other eye

We had an "ageing" fanbase, and I note Leigh have made the same comment. Time will see these attitudes die out.

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A loyal but small local audience

The people of the local game for local folk mentality don't need to move over: they need to open their minds and their other eye

Yep - I often hear it quoted that Rugby League is a game for all. We don't discriminate or judge people, anyone can play, watch or get involved at whatever level they like. Whilst this may be technically true, I really don't think we make things very friendly for 'new' people to get involved.

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Yep - I often hear it quoted that Rugby League is a game for all. We don't discriminate or judge people, anyone can play, watch or get involved at whatever level they like. Whilst this may be technically true, I really don't think we make things very friendly for 'new' people to get involved.

Quite. The reaction to Dr Koukash is a perfect example of that.

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Yep - I often hear it quoted that Rugby League is a game for all. We don't discriminate or judge people, anyone can play, watch or get involved at whatever level they like. Whilst this may be technically true, I really don't think we make things very friendly for 'new' people to get involved.

I agree.

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