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Rascal Bongo Stork

Manchester Rangers - future C1 club?

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try as I might I just cant get that link to open - all I know is that 'the time isnt right'. Who is saying that? I'm taking a guess and saying the bloke at Mancunians RL who wants to set up his own C1 club and suddenly finds himself behind in the race but I may be doing him a disservice

I've never met either of them but you are barking up the wrong tree there.

This guy seems to think that established clubs have a right to avoid fair competition. He also seems to think that "money will be thrown at the club by the RFL" - unlikely I'd say.

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try as I might I just cant get that link to open - all I know is that 'the time isnt right'. Who is saying that? I'm taking a guess and saying the bloke at Mancunians RL who wants to set up his own C1 club and suddenly finds himself behind in the race but I may be doing him a disservice

The full link is

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/sport-opinion/time-not-right-start-new-1741862

If this helps....

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It appears to be an opinion column by Neil Barker, the MEN RL corespondent, and it's hard to fault his argument on this occasion.

Sorry Pottsy, but got to fundamentally disagree here.

Neil Barker says

Koukash is a very wealthy man yet even he is struggling to set up a vibrant fan base.

Where is the support for a Manchester team going to come from?

And what about Swinton Lions, Oldham and Rochdale Hornets and Leigh Centurions?

They need support and financial help long before money is thrown at some new Manchester venture.

i.e. this excuse for a journalist is basing his argument on

a) Koukash 'struggling' with Salford - judged after just a handful of games

B) Money from the RFL is being 'thrown' at the new venture - I can't see this being the case, looks like a private inititive being facilitated by the RFL (and why not?)

c) The RFL should instead be giving financial help to some other local clubs - because they're 'traditional'.

Can't believe the MEN are knocking the venture before its even got off the ground.

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Sorry Pottsy, but got to fundamentally disagree here.

Neil Barker says

i.e. this excuse for a journalist is basing his argument on

a) Koukash 'struggling' with Salford - judged after just a handful of games

B) Money from the RFL is being 'thrown' at the new venture - I can't see this being the case, looks like a private inititive being facilitated by the RFL (and why not?)

c) The RFL should instead be giving financial help to some other local clubs - because they're 'traditional'.

Can't believe the MEN are knocking the venture before its even got off the ground.

I think I'm right in saying the central grant for CC1 clubs is around 70k pa. personally, I'd sooner see that "thrown" at the grassroots rather than another semi pro club

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Chris Irwin, once of Castleford and Wigan, now playing for Eccles is behind it. He has backers and seems to have done all his research well. It seems to be well planned by people who love Rugby League and not just a "hobby" for some rich guy until he gets bored with it. If it brings new supporters to the game - great, but I hope it doesn't have a negative impact on the likes of Swinton and other local clubs. It certainly worked at North Wales Crusaders.

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Chris Irwin, once of Castleford and Wigan, now playing for Eccles is behind it. He has backers and seems to have done all his research well. It seems to be well planned by people who love Rugby League and not just a "hobby" for some rich guy until he gets bored with it. If it brings new supporters to the game - great, but I hope it doesn't have a negative impact on the likes of Swinton and other local clubs. It certainly worked at North Wales Crusaders.

I'm not sure that the proposed club will have much, if any, impact on Salford. We're not talking Super League here, it is Championship One level, the world of Oxford, Hemel, Skolars, etc. In terms of support you're going to be talking about Gorton and the immediate vicinity, rather than the Manchester region: hundreds rather than thousands. Anyone who wants to watch top quality rugby is going to go down the road to Salford, Wigan, St Helens, etc.

I certainly don't think Swinton will be affected. At this level people want to support their local team, or one they have been traditionally affiliated to. It may attract a few disaffected Oldham fans, alienated by the ground facilities at Whitebank, but they are people who have probably been lost anyway.

I think one point should be made here. This is still, largely, known as a northern game, but there are still some very significant gaps. Towns and cities adjacent to some of our heartland areas are rugby league deserts, and the traditional amateur game has been largely unsuccessful at cultivating them. Why has a thriving community club not been established in Manchester (or Liverpool, Blackburn, Preston, for that matter) in the 100+ years the game has been in existence? Probably because there is a lack of expertise in these communities; this expertise tends to congregate around the traditional professional clubs, and if your town/community hasn't got one then you're stuffed.

The RFL has, finally, created a semi-pro competition where the start-up costs are not too onerous, and this gives the game to get established in our 'gap' towns of the north as well as the more southern regions. Setting up Manchester Rangers is probably feasible. Setting up a club at NCL level probably isn't.

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I agree that this club won't dent Salford's support in any way.

I just question the logic of pumping at least £70k per year of central funding into a semi pro club (so essentially into players wages and other overheads), rather than directing that money into the grassroots.

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I don't dissagree that the best place to spend £70k would be with the grassroots. But that's not Neil Barker's argument. He's saying the RFL should pump money into some of the old traditional clubs, rather than support any new inititives. If the new venture is deemed realistic and sustainable, I have no issue with the RFL admitting them to whatever league is deemed appropriate for them.

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I'm not sure that the proposed club will have much, if any, impact on Salford. We're not talking Super League here, it is Championship One level, the world of Oxford, Hemel, Skolars, etc. In terms of support you're going to be talking about Gorton and the immediate vicinity, rather than the Manchester region: hundreds rather than thousands. Anyone who wants to watch top quality rugby is going to go down the road to Salford, Wigan, St Helens, etc.

I certainly don't think Swinton will be affected. At this level people want to support their local team, or one they have been traditionally affiliated to. It may attract a few disaffected Oldham fans, alienated by the ground facilities at Whitebank, but they are people who have probably been lost anyway.

I think one point should be made here. This is still, largely, known as a northern game, but there are still some very significant gaps. Towns and cities adjacent to some of our heartland areas are rugby league deserts, and the traditional amateur game has been largely unsuccessful at cultivating them. Why has a thriving community club not been established in Manchester (or Liverpool, Blackburn, Preston, for that matter) in the 100+ years the game has been in existence? Probably because there is a lack of expertise in these communities; this expertise tends to congregate around the traditional professional clubs, and if your town/community hasn't got one then you're stuffed.

The RFL has, finally, created a semi-pro competition where the start-up costs are not too onerous, and this gives the game to get established in our 'gap' towns of the north as well as the more southern regions. Setting up Manchester Rangers is probably feasible. Setting up a club at NCL level probably isn't.

+1

MH - confused me a bit though with last sentence.

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+1

MH - confused me a bit though with last sentence.

An NCL club requires a full(ish) junior set-up, meaning that such a club needs to be built organically over a period of years, whereas with some money and a ground, a professional club can be created from nothing in a much shorter time - the juniors and surrounding things can come later.

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An NCL club requires a full(ish) junior set-up, meaning that such a club needs to be built organically over a period of years, whereas with some money and a ground, a professional club can be created from nothing in a much shorter time - the juniors and surrounding things can come later.

To look at it another way: an NCL club has to be rigorously assessed on a variety of criteria in order to ensure it is viable, sustainable and built on solid foundations, a CC1 club doesn't.......

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Pottsy, I have already put forward your concerns to Chris Irwin directly as I have the same concerns, but he responds with a pretty good case. He has financial backers that will be putting money into the club. Of course they will take anything they are enetitled too off the RFL, and I myself would rather see that going into grassroots RL, but it seems they will be mostly self funding. Regarding junior development, a lot of work has been done in Manchester schools and Mancunians ARLFC seem to be a well run amateur side. My initial reaction to the new club was one of dissapointment, having seen many "false dawn"s over the last 40 years, but if this venture brings new players and supporters into the game it has to be a good thing.

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I met Chris Irwin a few years back when he was a coach educator, so I know he's a decent bloke.

Almost self funding, isn't the same as self funding and, personally, I'd sooner see the £70k pa in central funding go into junior rugby.

Mancunians are, as you say, a decent amateur club but they have struggled to get junior rugby up and running. I'd sooner invest in this side of things and getting clubs like Mancunians working with the local super league side and other existing semi pro clubs rather than 'investing' precious funds into a new outfit who the Manchester public haven't exactly been crying out for.

If they were entirely self funding it'd be a different story.

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So basically close down all champ and champ 1 clubs yeah and invest in the grassroots? Or does this 'principle' only apply to people wanting into the closed shop, not its current members?

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Not at all. There's a clear rationale behind some of the new clubs (eg, a club in the Midlands would provide an outlet for the juniors who are now emerging) so you can make a case for central funding.

I just don't see that here

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Not at all. There's a clear rationale behind some of the new clubs (eg, a club in the Midlands would provide an outlet for the juniors who are now emerging) so you can make a case for central funding.

I just don't see that here

I think the rationale is that RL is a game largely played in small towns (with the exception of Leeds, Bradford and Hull). Here is a big city that doesn't have a club yet but has a group who are trying to get one started. They even have some fairly big names behind them and (possibly) a new stadium to play at.

70k is hardly a huge of money to risk under such circumstances.

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+1

MH - confused me a bit though with last sentence.

If you think what an NCL club is, it is an amateur, members club that has grown out of an existing rugby league community. It has utilised the rugby league expertise that exists in that community (built up over many generations), and used that knowledge and talent to become one of the best clubs, in terms of playing ability, facilities and youth development, in the locality. It will have invested its members' and supporters money over many years to get to that position.

Is it possible to build that sort of club in 'virgin' territory, given that the wealth of rugby league talent and expertise that exists in traditional communities isn't there? A few 'expansion' area clubs have tried the NCL, but none have survived long term. We now have the Southern Conference, but this is new and these clubs are not next to the strong RL communities of the north. How would a potential Manchester NCL club develop in strength if playing, coaching and administrative expertise kept being tempted away by long establish clubs from neighbouring towns? Would ambitious players stick with a fledgling Manchester club if they had the opportunity of playing at a higher level at such a neighbouring club?

Also, where would the investment come from? Traditionally, amateur clubs have built up over many years, with members and supporters providing funds (admission, bar-takings, etc) for the excellent clubhouses playing at this level requires. A difficult task for a new club trying to establish itself in a community that, initially anyway, has little interest.

I just think that Championship One now provides a possible alternative to the NCL for new RL communities. It is at a lower standard than previously and, as such, viable clubs can hopefully be set up with less finance and, hopefully, reliant on smaller crowds, sponsorship, etc. The initial finance comes from outside the game, solving the problem of getting such a standard of club off the ground through its own efforts.

The needs of traditional communities and expansion towns are different, and I think this dual approach could be a solution. Traditional communities want competition between the best amateur clubs, and they require rules that establish certain standards of those clubs, ie proper clubs with facilities rather than pub teams. The elite competitions should be open to any amateur clubs that develop sufficiently.

Expansion areas perhaps need a more immediate solution that Championship One hopefully provides.

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According to this evening's MEN, this 'new' Manchester club could involve a merger with Swinton.

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According to this evening's MEN, this 'new' Manchester club could involve a merger with Swinton.

What, if anything, is happening with the ground that Swinton proposed a few years back?

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According to this evening's MEN, this 'new' Manchester club could involve a merger with Swinton.

I'm all for Manchester Rangers but not if it's Swinton moving to east Manchester and renaming. All very Broughton Rangersesque. Hopefully it's empty paper talk.

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My advice to you all is stop reading the Manchester Evening News. The RL correspondent knows nothing at all about Rugby League and is a great vehicle for mischievous others to spread rumours! Sells newspapers so who cares if its not the truth! Broughton Rangers were great publicity for Salford RLFC who dropped them as soon as the publicity ran out, and they only did it anyway for the funding that was available, and because the RFL told them they neded to be "seen" to be promoting the game in the area. Manchester Rangers has nothing to do with Salford RLFC or Swinton RLFC. It is just a project of people who want to see RL thrive and appeal to a new audience, independant of other RL influences in the area.

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According to this evening's MEN, this 'new' Manchester club could involve a merger with Swinton.

So Swinton reinvented under another name?

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I agree that this club won't dent Salford's support in any way.

I just question the logic of pumping at least £70k per year of central funding into a semi pro club (so essentially into players wages and other overheads), rather than directing that money into the grassroots.

I agree but it's only what Oldham have been getting for the last 10 years and what have they delvoped with 10 years of grants from RFL

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