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Terry Mullaney

Two tier SL on the way

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Then maybe the finances to compete in the SL currently are too much for all but a handful of clubs.

Wasn't that exactly what that recent documentary (shown on Look North or whatever) found when the accountant chap went through all the SL clubs finances?....

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Well London put 50 on Warrington and Huddersfield put 45 on St Helens and Hull got stuffed at Leeds already. This is nothing new.

And that happens every week, does it ?

Look no further than Leigh to see the damage a season long string of defeats can do.

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And that happens every week, does it ?

Look no further than Leigh to see the damage a season long string of defeats can do.

But if you're talking of putting possibly four teams from the Championship into the SL2 then the chances are that there won't be a season of floggings as six games would be against teams they are on par with, dependent on closed season recruitment..

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You shouldn't state that funding isn't there as though it is fact.

So take me to the part of the statement Gatcliffe made that explained how the two tier SL would be funded then?

If he fails to put the figures to the idea then one cannot properly debate such an idea?

Without funding details being part of any presentation for any business project it merely ends up being a fantasy.

And so it comes to pass we are flying off to 24 club conferences Where Leigh and Wigan will be a close run thing, and an extra 250 professional RL players will appear "just like that"....

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Leeds and Wigan etc would have ALL the best players, the middle teams would feed off the scraps and the leigh's and barrows would have no professional players to buy - there is a player shortage that you conveniently forget.

That's an altogether different thread.

When Bradford had all the best stars and salford didn't they put 94 on Salford.

I seem to recall Bradford shipping ninety points in a Challenge Cup semi final too.

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Hopefully, he's privvy to more sensitive information than we are (one assumes that he's also a board member at SLE). Sky or someone else might already be interested for all we know.

Either that or he's planting a seed with our major financial backer

Or he is talking ####.

I know where my money is.

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But if you're talking of putting possibly four teams from the Championship into the SL2 then the chances are that there won't be a season of floggings as six games would be against teams they are on par with, dependent on closed season recruitment..

An altogether different proposal. The above was on the Conference proposal.

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Sadly the devil IS in the detail IMHO.

If we had 20 teams in Superleague conferences all able to spend up to full salary cap only the big clubs would spend it in full.

Leeds and Wigan etc would have ALL the best players, the middle teams would feed off the scraps and the leigh's and barrows would have no professional players to buy - there is a player shortage that you conveniently forget.

Leigh currently spend £235,000 on players, Barrow less.

When Bradford had all the best stars and salford didn't they put 94 on Salford.

There's now few Aussies to even things up. We have 350 professionals in a 14 club Superleague.

In a 20 club Superleague we will need 500.

In this fantasy world of conferences there may be some money but there won't be the players......

The current SL teams presumably have the players. Of the probable 6 teams needed to make up the numbers to 20 teams, three and a half have at least three quarters of the players they need. There are not as many players required as all that. There are 3 soon to be 4 new teams in Championship 2. That could be a source of new players. the DR players who are currently being yo yoed between SL and Championship clubs might be another soruce of players. The continued advance of the game in the non heartlands areas of the UK and the new countries in the international sphere, Jamaica, Canada, USA, Serbia, Russia and Africa etc might be sources for players. Numerous NRL players with UK heritage exempting them from visas are no doubt out there to be coveted also.

From somewhere, the players will be found

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The current SL teams presumably have the players. Of the probable 6 teams needed to make up the numbers to 20 teams, three and a half have at least three quarters of the players they need.

From somewhere, the players will be found

Good luck with that.

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The current SL teams presumably have the players.

quite....I thought this was about retaining the talent we have and stopping them from being lured to the NRL or Yawnion

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Maybe the finances to compete in the SL currently are too much for all but a handful of clubs. Is it that there are too many who can't afford to be in SL or too few that can afford to be in SL?

Nice question, my view (that is not a fact but is a humble opinion based on reading all I can that's said by the power brokers and looking at all the information published) is that Leeds, Wigan, Wire and Saints rule the roost. After that Huddersfield are consistently heavily funded and Hull and Catalans also seem to make up the "handful". Bradford weren't saved for nothing and Toulouse were courted and spouting just how rich they would be in SL.

In terms of who can't afford to be in Superleague, I think (not as a fact but as a humble opinion based on reading all I can that's said by the power brokers and looking at all the information published)all you need to do is look at the Championship.

Look at how low the crowds are?

Look at the ageing demographic of those falling crowds??

Look at the way they are morphing into "A" teams???

Maybe nobody can afford to be in the Championship. The division of death tag used to belong to CC1.

I don't think anyone who ends up in the second tier is going to be saved from the problems it brings by simply calling it "SL2"

I can't see any funding system in which the top ten already rich clubs continue getting hundreds of thousands of pounds more than the rest AND can inject hundreds of thousand of pounds of more private money will do anything to create evenness between the divisions.

Wigan currrently are given £1.2m by sky, If Leigh get £680K from SKY with 2 x 10's and Wigan are allowed to spend another £400K of private money on players, you still have a discrepancy in spending power.

Wigan's turnover will gallop off towards £6M whilst Leigh's will be able to secure their business but won't be able to afford a Superleague team, there aren't the players for an extra six superleague clubs to buy.

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The continued advance of the game in the non heartlands areas of the UK and the new countries in the international sphere, Jamaica, Canada, USA, Serbia, Russia and Africa etc might be sources for players.

From somewhere, the players will be found

Forget Africa etc.

They will IMHO pay semi pro's professional wages of course. However many won't want to go professional so the teams the "extra SL" clubs end up paying big wages to may well not have the quality to go on the same pitch as a Wigan.

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So take me to the part of the statement Gatcliffe made that explained how the two tier SL would be funded then?

If he fails to put the figures to the idea then one cannot properly debate such an idea?

Without funding details being part of any presentation for any business project it merely ends up being a fantasy.

And so it comes to pass we are flying off to 24 club conferences Where Leigh and Wigan will be a close run thing, and an extra 250 professional RL players will appear "just like that"....

We aren't discussing a detailed business case. We are discussing an idea in principle.

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When you talk about SL 1 and SL 2 you are doing the same thing or an alternative view could be that you are demoting four SL teams.

I think the best description would absolutely be that you are demoting 4 teams. You wouldn't however be demoting them to the current 2nd tier, which has an extremely low salary cap, as well as a handful of teams who I'd suggest are not aiming for Super League.

In effect you are creating a stronger 2nd tier, sitting under a stronger top tier.

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We aren't discussing a detailed business case. We are discussing an idea in principle.

Lets agree to disagree, I can't even begin to discuss anything as a serious proposal without some sort of explanation of the obvious problem of funding six more superleague clubs when the game is in a financial mire and there aren't the players to go round.

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In effect you are creating a stronger 2nd tier, sitting under a stronger top tier.

Now that I can agree with. Wether it will make the second tier clubs strong enough to avoid closure or strong enough to be able to compete in the top tier is the outstanding question for me.

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Lets agree to disagree, I can't even begin to discuss anything as a serious proposal without some sort of explanation of the obvious problem of funding six more superleague clubs when the game is in a financial mire and there aren't the players to go round.

Funding - already been explained that the 2nd tier could benefit from £560k per club, based on current levels. That's a decent starting point. You can make whatever rules up you want, you could split the money how you want etc. there are all sorts of solutions, you don;t really want to discuss them at all.

Players - there are enough players. They may not be the quality that you want, but they are there. The best 20 clubs will have the best 500 players. That's really very very simple.

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Funding - already been explained that the 2nd tier could benefit from £560k per club, based on current levels. That's a decent starting point. You can make whatever rules up you want, you could split the money how you want etc. there are all sorts of solutions, you don;t really want to discuss them at all.

Players - there are enough players. They may not be the quality that you want, but they are there. The best 20 clubs will have the best 500 players. That's really very very simple.

Funding - the top tier will benefit by £1.2M and several hundred thousand more of directors money, and much bigger crowds. The gap remains massive.

Players - the best 250 players will all be in the top tier, in the bottom tier semi pros will be "converted" to pro's. Promoted clubs won't have SL1 quality teams.

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Forget Africa etc.

They will IMHO pay semi pro's professional wages of course. However many won't want to go professional so the teams the "extra SL" clubs end up paying big wages to may well not have the quality to go on the same pitch as a Wigan.

Forget Wigan. they have been a dominant team thrashing most of the other teams for over a century, Nothing new there then.

However, the new clubs should be able to compete with and beat, their newly elected peers from the Champiionship and, in addition, Widnes, Castleford, London with an occasional shock reult over Wakefield and Hull KR. There are enough wins out there available to ensure that these teams do not remain winless and this will be just the start. Once in SL, how many Dr Koukash's or Glovers, or Davys are out there who might fancy funding or, at least , assisting with funding, of a SL team

And, as for " Forget Africa". the RU's Kenya 7's teams rapidly came from nowhere the be a top level outfit and those athletes are poor and hungry and very suited to our game. Leeds currently have a german player from a very poor standard league. There are sources of players out there.

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Funding - the top tier will benefit by £1.2M and several hundred thousand more of directors money, and much bigger crowds. The gap remains massive.

Players - the best 250 players will all be in the top tier, in the bottom tier semi pros will be "converted" to pro's. Promoted clubs won't have SL1 quality teams.

Funding - The gap will remain large. I don't think anybody claimed otherwise. It will be a hell of a lot smaller than current though, which probably makes P&R impossible.

Players - This is the same as any league with P&R.

Nobody is saying that these things would suddenly make everything perfect, but it does provide some advantages.

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Been saying it for years a ten team super league. We may be able to stretch to twelve . Twelve would fit better if a break away. One league of twelve playing each other home and away for 22 rounds with top six play offs. Then have there own cup comp instead of challenge cup with four pools of three in group stage , possibly if france gets there super league of 8 up and running add them to the cup comp giving us four pools of five with 3 english teams and two french in each pool . But for now lets look at english league .Four pools of three each playing one home and one away game in pool matches . Top two in each pool make quarter finals. Keep England v Exiles match and add the tribes ( best of scotland, ireland and wales players ) to make a round robin comp . Make them double headers with players under international level playing in a county comp. IE England v The Exiles, lancashire v The Tribes played at wigan, England v The Tribes yorkshire v The Exiles at Hull and The Tribes v The Exiles Yorkshire v Lancashire at Huddersfield.

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Dumbest idea ever

Has no one pointed our its pretty much the system we used to have that failed so spectacularly over and over again?

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Nice question, my view (that is not a fact but is a humble opinion based on reading all I can that's said by the power brokers and looking at all the information published) is that Leeds, Wigan, Wire and Saints rule the roost. After that Huddersfield are consistently heavily funded and Hull and Catalans also seem to make up the "handful". Bradford weren't saved for nothing and Toulouse were courted and spouting just how rich they would be in SL.

In terms of who can't afford to be in Superleague, I think (not as a fact but as a humble opinion based on reading all I can that's said by the power brokers and looking at all the information published)all you need to do is look at the Championship.

What about the current SL teams outside of the ones you name? Where do they stand in the rankings? Would they be simply dropped down to the graveyard you describe?

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Once in SL, how many Dr Koukash's or Glovers, or Davys are out there who might fancy funding or, at least , assisting with funding, of a SL team

You mean a second tier club?

Well Hudgell did it i suppose but then found it a bit rich. O'Connor did it and the jury is out.

Your basing the future of this proposed project on unidentified foreign players and unknown rich investors coming over the horizon.

You lost your grip on reality again?

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What about the current SL teams outside of the ones you name? Where do they stand in the rankings? Would they be simply dropped down to the graveyard you describe?

I dunno it's all speculation but there has been strong speculation on here this is about shifting certain clubs down a peg and out of the way.

I fear for HKR if they are one, because Hull will continue to pick off their best players.

I fear for one or two of Cas, Fev or Wakefield. Similarly if only one is in the SL1 they will raid the others for their best players.

They will all survive as clubs IF they get SKY funding in the second tier.

But what good is money if there aren't the players to buy.

To me it will secure second tier clubs but will only recreate the old system where the promoted club was either a top tier club boucing back up straight away or a club on a hiding to nothing like Leigh. HKR got round this with Australians, that's not there any more.

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