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Terry Mullaney

Two tier SL on the way

724 posts in this topic

You genuinely dont believe 500 players couldnt be found? Genuinely?

You are stifling discussion with the money point. Put it this way Gatcliffe knows more about this than you or I!

Of course 500 players can be found, but it's about quality players. the purpose of 2 x 10 is supposedly about P & R IMHO the quality player shortage will "stifle" that.

I'm stifling nothing, you can discuss what you want, we may have a better discussion if this man who "knows more about it than you or I" actually gives us what he knows so it can be discussed. Gatcliffe and the reporter are the ones stifling a discussion of the facts.

Bland PR stuff is hard to discuss that's all.

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why not?

We all discuss things like world cup structures etc without seeing financial business plans.

Its up to the leaders to sort out the financials.

There are so many other angles and pros and cons to this structure that get ignored because of the same old posts.

it's up to the leaders to sort everything out

they sort things out or at least attempt to according to the cards they are dealt with.

I'm a traditionalist and therefore believe in innovation, adaptation, and progress. This is two divisions is prom and reg in sheep's clothing with all its attendant issues, but hey it makes the reactionaries eyes light up.

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Of course 500 players can be found, but it's about quality players. the purpose of 2 x 10 is supposedly about P & R IMHO the quality player shortage will "stifle" that.

I'm stifling nothing, you can discuss what you want, we may have a better discussion if this man who "knows more about it than you or I" actually gives us what he knows so it can be discussed. Gatcliffe and the reporter are the ones stifling a discussion of the facts.

Bland PR stuff is hard to discuss that's all.

i'll post properly when im at my pc but im interested to hear your views on the pros and cons of this outside of finances.

I know you say you cant take a proposal seriously without the finances but the finances never get released and we talk about other things in the game.

I have no clue whether we can afford the WC this year. If i took a negative approach Id call it madness based on previous WC's tours amd international crowds.

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it's up to the leaders to sort everything out

they sort things out or at least attempt to according to the cards they are dealt with.

I'm a traditionalist and therefore believe in innovation, adaptation, and progress. This is two divisions is prom and reg in sheep's clothing with all its attendant issues, but hey it makes the reactionaries eyes light up.

tbf thats a different thing entirely. That seems like a fair eniugh opinion whether I agree with it or not.

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When the game became full time the players fitness, strength and skills improved beyond recognition. Wouldn't this be the case at the half dozen new clubs that may be introduced? There are already plenty of CC players with SL potential but not enough places available for them and the DR system has restricted them even more.

The RFL will obviously be well aware of the costs of such changes so I don't really understand why it's such a big issue on here. Leave that to them I'd suggest.

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tbf thats a differe an ssarily mean you adea it doesn't necerent thing entirely. That seems like a fair eniugh opinion whether I agree with it or not.

actually Dave I generalised a bit for which apologies to you and to others

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i'll post properly when im at my pc but im interested to hear your views on the pros and cons of this outside of finances.

I know you say you cant take a proposal seriously without the finances but the finances never get released and we talk about other things in the game.

Fair enough.

I'm off out now but basically as i have posted I believe the proposal polarises the two leagues if the top league gets more funding.

I believe that if funding is equal the two leagues will still be polarised because all the rich men and top players - probably only enough for 10 clubs - will all be in the top league.

So it seems logical to me if you want a competitive two tier SL you need to fund the second tier at a much greater rate than the first one to get meaningful P & R and not yo-yoing??

What do you think Dave?

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Fair enough.

I'm off out now but basically as i have posted I believe the proposal polarises the two leagues if the top league gets more funding.

I believe that if funding is equal the two leagues will still be polarised because all the rich men and top players - probably only enough for 10 clubs - will all be in the top league.

So it seems logical to me if you want a competitive two tier SL you need to fund the second tier at a much greater rate than the first one to get meaningful P & R and not yo-yoing??

What do you think Dave?

The second tier doesn't have to be as strong as the top tier that's why it's the second tier.. With this proposal four clubs would have to drop down

a level but there's no doubt we would get an improved to flight and an improved second tier. It might also give the RFL chance to set a few new ground rules regarding overseas players and international release for players if clubs sign up for these leagues

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The second tier doesn't have to be as strong as the top tier that's why it's the second tier. My suggestion would be that the second tier. With this proposal four clubs would have to drop down

a level but there's no doubt we would get an improved to flight and an improved second tier. It might also give the RFL chance to set a few new ground rules regarding overseas players and international release for players if clubs sign up for these leagues

well they have to be comparable otherwise hello yo yo syndrome and a de facto ten club SL

the way SL looks at the minute the top 8 clubs are competitive with each other, the basket cases-for that is what they are: London, salford with their attendant issues for instance have massive potential. We've seen what London are capable of in the not too distant past.

None of these issues, including the fall and rise of the Bulls and the Reds(the rise of the Bulls and the resurgence of Salford seem to have been ignored by those who were up on their back legs when they were in trouble), relate to the competition itself rather the way the clubs have been run.

As an aside I find it odd that the people who are most strident in their desire to see their club in the top flight one way or another, were recently rubbishing the quality of SL Rugby and extolling the virtues of the championship

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well they have to be comparable otherwise hello yo yo syndrome and a de facto ten club SL

the way SL looks at the minute the top 8 clubs are competitive with each other, the basket cases-for that is what they are: London, salford with their attendant issues for instance have massive potential. We've seen what London are capable of in the not too distant past.

None of these issues, including the fall and rise of the Bulls and the Reds(the rise of the Bulls and the resurgence of Salford seem to have been ignored by those who were up on their back legs when they were in trouble), relate to the competition itself rather the way the clubs have been run.

As an aside I find it odd that the people who are most strident in their desire to see their club in the top flight one way or another, were recently rubbishing the quality of SL Rugby and extolling the virtues of the championship

We are talking about a proposed fully pro second tier on half the funding of SL. We could also set new rules regarding player development if clubs signed up for this. Personally I'd set the number of club trained players in the match day squad for SL2 very high. That we clubs that win promotion would have to do it on the back of good player production. This would at least give them a good base from which to grow if they won promotion.

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I quite agree, that's the concensus of opinion so far, but some people still don't seem to get the fact that there aren't enough quality pro players either and you can't assume every semi pro lad with a job or a business will drop all that just to play RL full time in a world where it may all end in a month or two with an awkward tackle, or on a coaches whim.

It's a great thread and it's got us all talking but I do wish whoever interviewed or took that quote from the Warrington CEO had said where's the money and players coming from? Why won't this just be another yo-yo set up? How will you get by playing Leeds possibly six times a season?

I get where you're coming from Parky, but how many full time professional players were there 12 months before Super League I kicked off?

Of course the extra players won't be found over night, some of the teams may well have to field some quality semi pro players initially.

Over a couple of seasons though, we will get the required number, for instance - those players discarded by the big club's academies that currently drop to semi or amatuer status can have useful careers in the lower division.

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The barriers to moving to a 2 tier SL are rather smaller than the barriers in peoples minds

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The barriers to moving to a 2 tier SL are rather smaller than the barriers in peoples minds

It isn't a question of the size of the barriers: all that has to happen is that someone takes a decision

It's a question of what happens on the other side of the other side of them: then we'll see where small minded self interest gets us: heaven forbid

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We could also set new rules regarding player development if clubs signed up for this. Personally I'd set the number of club trained players in the match day squad for SL2 very high. That we clubs that win promotion would have to do it on the back of good player production. This would at least give them a good base from which to grow if they won promotion.

Why should there be rules imposed on one division that are not imposed on the other?

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2 conferences however would further dilute the league and further increase the gulf in class between the top clubs and bottom. Quality, not quantity.

We don't have enough quality to furnish a ten team league as it is so there will always be a gulf in class as things currently stand..

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Why should there be rules imposed on one division that are not imposed on the other?

Super league is a different competition to the championship

The championship is a competition divided into two divisions

It makes sense that requirements for each competition are different

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Super league is a different competition to the championship

The championship is a competition divided into two divisions

It makes sense that requirements for each competition are different

Sorry but I can't agree. We should have the same rules across all divisions of the pro/semi pro game where and whenever possible.

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It isn't a question of the size of the barriers: all that has to happen is that someone takes a decision

then we'll see where small minded self interest gets us: heaven forbid

If we removed small minded self interest we wouldn't get any improvements or benefits. Particularly now that the clubs have the power not the RFL.

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Sorry but I can't agree. We should have the same rules across all divisions of the pro/semi pro game where and whenever possible.

Exactly

When and where possible

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If we removed small minded self interest we wouldn't get any improvements or benefits. Particularly now that the clubs have the power not the RFL.

So it's the clubs that are to blame for everything that the reactionaries see as being wrong with the game

We keep being told its the RFL

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Why should there be rules imposed on one division that are not imposed on the other?

Because you would be after different things from different divisions. In SL1 you would be after a balance of developing players and providing the best quality comp you can for your top players. In SL2 you are after a good quality comp where teams and players can develop for SL.

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Exactly

When and where possible

So you're saying it wouldn't be possible to have the same rules and criteria for a proposed SL1 and SL2?

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So you're saying it wouldn't be possible to have the same rules and criteria for a proposed SL1 and SL2?

I'm saying there shouldn't be a sl 1 and 2 in the first place, so the issue doesn't arise

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I'm saying there shouldn't be a sl 1 and 2 in the first place, so the issue doesn't arise

Fair enough.

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Because you would be after different things from different divisions. In SL1 you would be after a balance of developing players and providing the best quality comp you can for your top players. In SL2 you are after a good quality comp where teams and players can develop for SL.

Then we'll end up with the scenario where SL1 don't bother to put too much effort into player development as they should because they can always pick off the best young players at SL2 clubs. Whilst realising that this happens to an extent anyway we'd just be telling the SL1 clubs that they don't have to bother with developing their own players and they can pocket the saved money. Sound familiar? All clubs with any serious aspirations to be in the top flight and those already there should have to fund their own youth development.

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