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If you don't pay the full cap you can't be in SL.

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Steve McNamara was on Radio Manchesters Thursday night show last week, well worth a listen if its still on iplayer.

Whilst he was discussing player numbers in relation to Duel Registration and having player of a sufficient calibre to call them "Semi Professional" the points he made are probably just as applicable here. I stand to be corrected but I'm sure he quoted participation numbers of approximatley 2500 at U14 level across the country

Yes I picked that stat up and I feel it is most important.

I suspect it sounds low because it may be the number of kids who play regularly and are serious about the game rather than the number of kids who fleetingly come and go at schools etc. a number pumped up to attract sport England money.

I seriously believe that the numbers are depressingly low. When my lad went on a local soccer camp there must have been sixty kids who were organised into teams and played loads of mini matches. When he went on the Rhinos camp it was more girls doing cheerleading and there weren't enough boys to play mini tournaments so they just did "skills".

But this doesn't stop people on here talking about 20 professional clubs etc etc etc as though RL players grow on trees.

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oh the irony a barrow fan pontificating about the salary cap...........................

Why the irony?

It wasn't BRK who was breaking any salary caps.

I'm sure he wasn't on the board with Des.

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Yes I picked that stat up and I feel it is most important.

I suspect it sounds low because it may be the number of kids who play regularly and are serious about the game rather than the number of kids who fleetingly come and go at schools etc. a number pumped up to attract sport England money.

I seriously believe that the numbers are depressingly low. When my lad went on a local soccer camp there must have been sixty kids who were organised into teams and played loads of mini matches. When he went on the Rhinos camp it was more girls doing cheerleading and there weren't enough boys to play mini tournaments so they just did "skills".

But this doesn't stop people on here talking about 20 professional clubs etc etc etc as though RL players grow on trees.

He went on the wrong one then,my youngest goes on skills camps every year and the y have always had enough numbers for games.

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I seriously believe that the numbers are depressingly low. When my lad went on a local soccer camp there must have been sixty kids who were organised into teams and played loads of mini matches. When he went on the Rhinos camp it was more girls doing cheerleading and there weren't enough boys to play mini tournaments so they just did "skills".

The Wigan Summer camps last year attracted 250 kids and since it was a sell out they repeated it in October for those that missed out.

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London - one would assume - would have a great chance of finding their Dr Koukash figure. Cas are clearly a different story. It brings us back to the age old debate about demographics and the geographical spread of the league. But I wouldn't envisage a shortage of takers to invest in London post-Hughes. The rewards are plain to see.

Broncos have been trading on potential for almost their entire existence. You must be one of the few who believe that they can ever achieve it. Remember how long it took them to replace Lenaghan. People simply aren't queuing up to pour their cash into a bottomless pit.

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I think Castleford would go. They would be the obvious favourites. No money, no further forward with stadium development, a club treading water really.

Rightly or wrongly, I think London will go too unless someone comes forward to replace Hughes - they simply can't survive without the kind of financial input he puts in. If its true that he's quitting next year then its difflcult to see how they can carry on in SL without him or someone of his ilk. That's the harsh reality.

I'm not saying they'd be my personal choices to go, just that if you were losing 2 clubs then they'd be the obvious candidates as things stand at the moment.

Where that leaves the likes of Fev is another matter altogether........

Thanks for your thoughts.....

London and Cas eh? We will see.......

A reduced SL wipes out the "one CC club will admitted to SL" promise because it applies if SL stays at 14.

But Fev fans don't despair, if Nahaboo offers full salary cap spend and more then Fev can claim a place over HKR if they continue to underspend.

London - central funding??

If not Toulouse to create an anglo french comp?

Fascinating subject the make up of SL 2015....

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Broncos have been trading on potential for almost their entire existence. You must be one of the few who believe that they can ever achieve it. Remember how long it took them to replace Lenaghan. People simply aren't queuing up to pour their cash into a bottomless pit.

You are bang on the money. People of London don't want league they want union they have made that obvious ever since the broncos have been in exsistence. No rich money man will plow millions into a club with no fans. Business men arnt rich for no reason and its definitely not for being daft and throwing money at a dying business.

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Thanks for your thoughts.....

London and Cas eh? We will see.......

A reduced SL wipes out the "one CC club will admitted to SL" promise because it applies if SL stays at 14.

But Fev fans don't despair, if Nahaboo offers full salary cap spend and more then Fev can claim a place over HKR if they continue to underspend.

London - central funding??

If not Toulouse to create an anglo french comp?

Fascinating subject the make up of SL 2015....

Like you say parky who knows what will happen but I'm putting my money on it still being the 14. Just because I don't think enough teams could fund a SL2 especially if the salary cap is a mil. Which IMO it as to be if there is P&R between the two leagues as the yo yo effect will come back.

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He went on the wrong one then,my youngest goes on skills camps every year and the y have always had enough numbers for games.

We did a summer camp about 5 years ago and it was held at Ralph Thoresby School where the Broughtons went.

Yes he may have gone to the wrong one.

I do think participation is low because many of the soccer kids went back to their junior clubs, yet there are no junior clubs in north west leeds for RL.

But absolute fair play to Leeds who have announced "Leeds Underdogs" junior ARLFC.

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The Wigan Summer camps last year attracted 250 kids and since it was a sell out they repeated it in October for those that missed out.

That's Wigan for you!!

Thank you very much for your reply, my follow up is a reply to TWIG.

North Leeds is a funny place they watch RL avidly but don't play it, but the evil Hetherington is changing that.

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You are bang on the money. People of London don't want league they want union they have made that obvious ever since the broncos have been in exsistence. No rich money man will plow millions into a club with no fans. Business men arnt rich for no reason and its definitely not for being daft and throwing money at a dying business.

The people of London don't want union, how many top flight clubs from union are in London.

Plenty of money men throw money at clubs with no fans or not enough to cover anywhere near the costs, A certain Doctor has just started. I believe someone in Featherstone is doing it, As for soccer it seems they can't waste enough money on buying and paying players far more than the number of supporters they get through the gate could ever sustain.

Money men have always had a fascination with throwing money at sport,

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You are bang on the money. People of London don't want league they want union

Oh don't start being all biased.

People of Manchester/Salford don't want league, they want union too.

Sale's crowds have outstripped Salford's for some years.

Jack Fulton and Neil Hudgell have been pouring their money down black holes as well.

Plenty of black holes up here when it comes to producing players. London are doing better than several SL clubs and most CC clubs on this.

London need a balanced unbiased viewpoint. Ignore the London haters Gaz...

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I'd say manchester/salford wants football, but that shouldn't stop salford doubling there crowds next season when the DR splashes the cash

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I'd say manchester/salford wants football, but that shouldn't stop salford doubling there crowds next season when the DR splashes the cash

Agreed, I'd say London wants soccer and RU but also want some RL.....

Why not.

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Agreed, I'd say London wants soccer and RU but also want some RL.....

Why not.

I'm sure some part of london wants a bit of rl, but its finding which part, and then having the ability to sell it to them which seems to be the problem.

I guess its make or break time when hughes finally pulls out.

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I'm sure some part of london wants a bit of rl, but its finding which part, and then having the ability to sell it to them which seems to be the problem.

I guess its make or break time when hughes finally pulls out.

We're getting to the point where (failing the emergence of another Koukash/Leneghan) the RFL needs to make a tough call over London.

Does it:

A) let nature take its course and withdraw the franchise

Or

B) Bite the bullet, accept a degree of criticism and attempt to run the franchise itself (at least in the short term).

I guess it all comes down to whether London truly is the necessity that some believe or is the lame duck other insist it's always been.

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Spending up to the cap should be an aspiration not a requirement. A minimum sensible spend could also be imposed with the proviso that clubs need to demonstrate that they could afford it. If they couldn't then they wouldn't be terribly competitive and perhaps shouldn't be in SL? I dunno but it would be great if every club actually thought that in a 3 period there was a chance that they could win the comp. We are miles off that at the mo, but again this should be our aspiration.

Personally I would have a cap a little less than now, with a minimum of about 2/3 of this. I would also allow each club to have one salary exempt marquee GB player each, together with perhaps a 50% salary exemption for one overseas player and one RU signing too - but again with some explanation from each club as to how they were going to afford it. This would prevent most player salary inflation, keep our top players in SL, and enable us to attract a few more new players from elsewhere to spice things up.

Just a thought.

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While I can't help but agree with the marque player, instead of the RU and NRL exemptions I'd rather see some form of discount for players brought through the ranks of the club (say 20%). That way a team is encouraged to have a good junior setup, AND bring the players through.

However, I disagree the current cap should not be lowered. It's already lost a third of its value in the 10 years it hasn't been increased with inflation.

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I am splitting my sides at the garbage posted here. how few of you understand the psyche of the successful or the wealthy sponsors/investors we crave.

They don't invest in mediocrity, they invest in visions/goals and the people driving them, hence why will always be that tough little northern sport few understand.

Our sport will die in the same way communism has unless we break the dominance of those with small minds

Two tens, with Toulouse and min cap in 2015

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I am splitting my sides at the garbage posted here. how few of you understand the psyche of the successful or the wealthy sponsors/investors we crave.

Enlighten me sc, what gives you the authority to tell others they don't understand money men's psyche but you do?
They don't invest in mediocrity.

Ah, I think Dr Koukash needs to sit down while someone tells him what he's invested in.

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I am splitting my sides at the garbage posted here. how few of you understand the psyche of the successful or the wealthy sponsors/investors we crave.

They don't invest in mediocrity, they invest in visions/goals and the people driving them, hence why will always be that tough little northern sport few understand.

Our sport will die in the same way communism has unless we break the dominance of those with small minds

Two tens, with Toulouse and min cap in 2015

Communism was an all inclusive system just like the "Two tens" you propose.

It's hard to understand exactly what you mean but it seems you are saying open up 20 clubs for investors to come and grab and ensure P & R so the 20th. placed club (someone like Dewsbury or Hunslet) can sail all the way up to the top.

Oddly enough we ran that system from 1996 to 2006 when Hull, Huddersfield HKR, wakefield, widnes and salford started out in the second tier.

I didn't see any "wealthy sponsors or investors" immediately flock to these clubs and lavish their riches on them to drive them from mediocrity all the way to the top.

Maybe your idea is that you say to the big business world "we are opening up SL to unlimited spending, come in and spend a fortune on us".

I think that in opposition to your idea I would offer the idea that as we are a small regional game and always have been, the vast majority of people with big money to put into team sport already do it in Rugby Union and soccer.

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There's also a world of difference between turnover and balance

Sorry, I understand turnover, but what do you mean by 'balance' in that context?

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There seems to be this misconception that the salary cap is £1.65m and totally inflexible, but in actual fact if you study the salary cap rules then its perfectly possible (and legal) for some clubs to already be paying at least £500k more than that to players.

On top of the basic £1.65m (which doesn't include National Insurance either) there are several other ways that clubs can pay the players...

1. Appearance Bonuses - if clubs pay their players appearance money on top of their contract money then only 18 games count towards the cap, therefore clubs can pay appearance money for the other 9 SL games and other salary cap relevant games (e.g. Challenge Cup, Play Offs etc) outside of the cap

2. Win Bonuses - as above but only 14 winning games count towards the cap, anything in excess of that is excluded

3. Prize Money - if a club pays a share of prize money from SL, Challenge Cup, World Club Challenge to its players then that is exempt from the cap

4. Challenge Cup - only QF, SF and Final are counted as salary cap relevant games so effectively the clubs can pay what they like to players in rounds 4 and 5.

5. Long service - there is a £50k dispensation for any club with players with more than 10 years service

6. Internationals - each club is allowed to deduct an amount from the salary cap spend each time a player they developed in their academy is picked to represent their country, up to a maximum of £100k per season. The player doesn't even have to be at their club anymore - e.g. if Westerman was picked for England then Cas would get the exemption and not Hull.

So its not as black and white as some seem to think. There are some top clubs who could quite easily be paying 30-40% over the "cap" as it stands.

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Personally I think that is one of the problems. No one really knows what the cap is there for. There is lots of speculation but that's it. Without that key point we can't measure the success or failure of it.

Some say it was brought in to:

  • Create a more level playing field
  • Stop clubs going bust
  • Make clubs more reliant on juniors
  • Force clubs to spend more on infrastructure (which I think is the one you were opting for)

If its any of the first 3 its failed completely. Since the junior levels have now been trashed by the RFL that's a big step towards the last one going down the river as well.

It was brought in initially to stop clubs going bust, which a number did, chiefly whilst trying to avoid relegation. There has been a fair anount of 'mission creep' though...

I quite agree about it failing though, on pretty much all levels, though, as to whether it was better or worse than its predecessor, P&R without any cap, then I'd have to say the jury is definitely still out. Maybe there is just no 'perfect' system?

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There seems to be this misconception that the salary cap is £1.65m and totally inflexible, but in actual fact if you study the salary cap rules then its perfectly possible (and legal) for some clubs to already be paying at least £500k more than that to players.

On top of the basic £1.65m (which doesn't include National Insurance either) there are several other ways that clubs can pay the players...

1. Appearance Bonuses - if clubs pay their players appearance money on top of their contract money then only 18 games count towards the cap, therefore clubs can pay appearance money for the other 9 SL games and other salary cap relevant games (e.g. Challenge Cup, Play Offs etc) outside of the cap

2. Win Bonuses - as above but only 14 winning games count towards the cap, anything in excess of that is excluded

3. Prize Money - if a club pays a share of prize money from SL, Challenge Cup, World Club Challenge to its players then that is exempt from the cap

4. Challenge Cup - only QF, SF and Final are counted as salary cap relevant games so effectively the clubs can pay what they like to players in rounds 4 and 5.

5. Long service - there is a £50k dispensation for any club with players with more than 10 years service

6. Internationals - each club is allowed to deduct an amount from the salary cap spend each time a player they developed in their academy is picked to represent their country, up to a maximum of £100k per season. The player doesn't even have to be at their club anymore - e.g. if Westerman was picked for England then Cas would get the exemption and not Hull.

So its not as black and white as some seem to think. There are some top clubs who could quite easily be paying 30-40% over the "cap" as it stands.

Blimey :O

fabulous analysis.....

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