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The Daddy

Super League as an Anglo-French competition is the best way forward

106 posts in this topic

To use the American comparison, most Americans consider a two hour drive to be nothing, but I think that most English people would consider that a fairly long drive. It's all about perceptions. I suppose that I can't speak for the French, but comparing distances between French clubs and those between English clubs is not valid.

But you'll try though, eh?

The point in making is that it has nothing to do with the size of a country as to what distances they find long to travel.

I'd say it's more to do with population density. France being still a pretty densely populated country.

However, regardless of whether they consider it far to travel it not, the four mentioned places ARE NOT pretty close. They are all 2-3 hours away from the next club, with the two furthest being 4.5 hours away from each other. That's long no matter where you're from!

They're all from different departments

The way your listed the distances made it sound like a quadrilateral with each club at a corner. That would cover considerably more area than a line with the clubs on it, which this more or less is.

I was simply giving the distance from the first club to the next nearest club, and finishing with the distance from the first on the line to the last. I've no idea why you think I've looked it it as a quadrilateral?

Regardless, have you actually looked at a map of France recently? Villeneuve-Toulouse-Perpignan-Avignon is hardly a straight line. Take Avignon out and yeah OK, it's fairly straight. But you'd probably be fair to say its a quadrilateral (or the very least a triangle). Not that it matters anyway. It's not like that's how you'd measure the target area for the fans. A circle drawn around each club is how you'd do that, with huge gaps in between each club due to how far away they are from each other!

You can try and justify it all you like, but in no way are those four places close in terms if travelling to and from sporting events regularly. Someone from Avignon will struggle massively to get to Catalans every other week to watch them play.

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Regardless, have you actually looked at a map of France recently? Villeneuve-Toulouse-Perpignan-Avignon is hardly a straight line.

Where did I say straight line? Maybe an arc.

You can try and justify it all you like, but in no way are those four places close in terms if travelling to and from sporting events regularly. Someone from Avignon will struggle massively to get to Catalans every other week to watch them play.

I'm not talking about fans necessarily. I am talking about major sponsors. Who will still see RL as a regional game with these clubs involved. So, why does getting this lot in lead to the aforementioned commercial development of the game?

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Also, where is the guarantee that these clubs will attract new, major sponsors?

There isn't one. No one has said there is. What is there is huge potential from a completely different market. The main revenue stream potential is from TV companies, as Sky don't broadcast there. Seeing as Sky pay tens of millions for coverage, that's how big a market we could tap into should we get the profile up. No other potential club in the UK can match that.

I'd take a team from the East Coast of the US if it brought a TV deal with it!

Without the TV deal, it won't happen. That's what we're saying.

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But would sky pay as much? Surely we'd just be replacing a chunk of sky money with a chunk of money from another TV station? I wouldn't really call that a commercial development...

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But would sky pay as much? Surely we'd just be replacing a chunk of sky money with a chunk of money from another TV station? I wouldn't really call that a commercial development...

The SLE bigwigs are reported to have told Toulouse another french club in SL will need a TV contract to go along with it.

Who knows if this is wishful thinking, a tactic to put as much pressure on Toulouse/Les Cats to come up with something, or a genuine financial requirement.

I wouldn't assume any one of the three.......

AFAIK the current SKY contract rolls on and AFAIK there has been no negotiation, let alone what SKY may pay if the Tournament goes a step towards anglo french, or maybe a step back to M62 if London go etc etc.

Toulouse promise big money which is an attraction but it's not up front. It apparently will flow once the license is secured. Who knows if this is real who knows if Toulouse are using this as a ploy to get SLE chasing this unsecured money?........

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Where can i view this outstanding standard of RL because it has not been on my screen or at any of the live matches i have attended?

Close , exciting (and drawn) matches and big swings do not equal fantastic standard from the evidence i have seen. I have just witnessed one of the lowest quality Hull derbies i can remember when both clubs have been top division outfits. The level of, or no existence of, skill and thinking in the game was painful at times. The numerous experienced RL people i have spoken to about he game have all been of a similar opinion so i know it just isn't me.

This has also been evident in plenty of other games, no , most,games i have seen this year so far. I was taken aback for example, when seeing Warrington live , how the level of their performance had dropped in comparison to the later stages of last season. The basic level of bone-headedness of some players and tactics is irritating. the fact that RL has evolved into a game where some players just run up and down the same 15 yard width of grass, performing a few very specific duties, for 80 minutes is much to blame.

I think it is also fair to draw an inference that a lot of clubs are deliberately not playing at "full whack" at the moment however this is surely detrimental to the standard of our game as a whole. The only way to raise standards is to ensure that players and teams need to play approaching their best each and every game. Thats a whole other debate of course, but as to this thread the introduction of further "weak" French teams would only dumb down the standard further and for this and plenty of other reasons is a big no at this moment in time.

And so as this belting post says, what we can work on is what are the chances are of Toulouse competing?

Les Catalans had the pick of French RL and added six or seven quality overseas players and set about coming erm...

Bottom of Superleague.

I'm not sure if Toulouse can find the same number and quality of imports, or top home grown stars that have been essential to Les Catalans rise towards the top of Superleague.

If Toulouse turned to bidding for and taking established French stars off Les Catalans then who knows they both may end up bottom of superleague at the end of 2015.

A third or fourth french club would have no chance, and the prospect of a two tier SL with English clubs coming 1-8 and the french 9-12 say fills me with dread!

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And so as this belting post says, what we can work on is what are the chances are of Toulouse competing?

Les Catalans had the pick of French RL and added six or seven quality overseas players and set about coming erm...

Bottom of Superleague.

I'm not sure if Toulouse can find the same number and quality of imports, or top home grown stars that have been essential to Les Catalans rise towards the top of Superleague.

If Toulouse turned to bidding for and taking established French stars off Les Catalans then who knows they both may end up bottom of superleague at the end of 2015.

A third or fourth french club would have no chance, and the prospect of a two tier SL with English clubs coming 1-8 and the french 9-12 say fills me with dread!

Catalans had the advantage of having time to recruit as well. That year they finished bottom was the highest amount of points a team at the bottom has ever amassed to be fair, so it's not like they'd been stuffed and left wanting at least. The year after they got to Wembley, and year after that they were 3rd so they grew pretty quickly!

Given some preparation time, they could bring in some interested imports, sign up a few locals and go from there. Catalans may take a slight hit at first, but they've got talent coming through as well to replace them. At the end of the day, the likes of Bosc, Barthau, Escare, Fakir, Pelissier and Baile aren't even first choice at the moment. They're all very good players and should be first choice somewhere. I'd take Bosc at Hull at the moment!

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At the end of the day, the likes of Bosc, Barthau, Escare, Fakir, Pelissier and Baile aren't even first choice at the moment. They're all very good players and should be first choice somewhere. I'd take Bosc at Hull at the moment!

I personally think it would do the game a lot of good if more French players were playing in English teams.

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And so as this belting post says, what we can work on is what are the chances are of Toulouse competing?

Les Catalans had the pick of French RL and added six or seven quality overseas players and set about coming erm...

Bottom of Superleague.

I'm not sure if Toulouse can find the same number and quality of imports, or top home grown stars that have been essential to Les Catalans rise towards the top of Superleague.

If Toulouse turned to bidding for and taking established French stars off Les Catalans then who knows they both may end up bottom of superleague at the end of 2015.

A third or fourth french club would have no chance, and the prospect of a two tier SL with English clubs coming 1-8 and the french 9-12 say fills me with dread!

The success of many the French youth sides though suggest there is talent there and an extra team could offer an outlet for some of that French talent.

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Les Catalans brought 9280 paying fans to Superleague last year and Catstleford 6709.

Every time these two clubs play at home Catalans provide the game with an income from 2,500 extra fans over Castleford.

I also suspect sponsorship, advertising and directors gifts income at Catalans is way above Castleford's income.

You have only looked at one aspect of the finances, and from that concluded Halifax would be a good bet for SL, yet Halifax have no money and if they got battered week in week out not only would 800 Halifax fans not travel, they'd be lucky to get 3,000 crowds.

They didn't get them in 2003.

Look at Salford and London who can't compete and where their crowds got to.

A little biased there Warrior??

parky i am on about away support, i went over to perpignan for our game and yes there were quite a lot of home fans but by the same token due to sheer cost they bring little if any fans to away games in england. please read properly before posting drivel in future..

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You'd be lucky to get two squads of 20 French players from the elite 1, every team apart from st esteve 13 Catalan have at least 4 foreign players, Avignon,pia and Carcasonne have around 7 foreign players each, something needs to be done as the elite 1 is dieing,

Avignon v lezignan yesterday was a game to get a play off place and 700 fans turned up!

Kids are coming through but as they reach elite 1 they stagnate,

Elite 1 teams play on average once a fortnight, sometimes they don't play for a month and then play two weekends then have two weeks off,so you never-seem to know when they're playing, Carcasonne played last night and I had no idea, and I live 20 mins from there and am co coach of one of there feeder teams!

at last a realist................

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for arguments sake say we get rid of castleford and bring in toulouse, that means instead of getting around 800 cas fans at away games then we will have 0 toulouse fans. surely if a club is going to miss out from the current 14 then featherstone or halifax should replace them or we will have even more clubs struggling due to the decrease in revenue from away fans.......

Read it again and that IS drivel......

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I'm afraid it is the original post which is drivel. It is not helped by a plethora of grammatical mistakes.

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parky i am on about away support, i went over to perpignan for our game and yes there were quite a lot of home fans but by the same token due to sheer cost they bring little if any fans to away games in england. please read properly before posting drivel in future..

He knows what you're on about. He's just showing you why it is such an invalid point.

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What do you base your convictions on? You can't can a number of pro clubs (and livelihoods) on the basis of a gut feeling! The local marie is something I have no idea about - what kind of input are you looking at there, and what is the likelihood of getting it?

One more thing - are the clubs that are being bandied about on this thread not also traditional areas? How then does allowing these into Superleague expand media, sponsorship and general awareness outside of traditional areas?

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What do you base your convictions on? You can't can a number of pro clubs (and livelihoods) on the basis of a gut feeling!

I'd say it's more than a guy feeling the fact that it keeps getting brought up by many people, including those in charge. It's a strategic development that needs to be handled correctly.

The local marie is something I have no idea about - what kind of input are you looking at there, and what is the likelihood of getting it?

I too would like to hear more about this.

One more thing - are the clubs that are being bandied about on this thread not also traditional areas? How then does allowing these into Superleague expand media, sponsorship and general awareness outside of traditional areas?

Because although these areas have had RL for a long time, the interest in the French Elite is very low. SL would bring about a huge amount of local interest and awareness.

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I'm afraid it is the original post which is drivel. It is not helped by a plethora of grammatical mistakes.

i thought it was a post on an internet forum not a thesis for a masters degree??? i'd post mine but it is too long and complex for most on here to understand.............

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I'd say it's more than a guy feeling the fact that it keeps getting brought up by many people, including those in charge. It's a strategic development that needs to be handled correctly.

Like who? That's not a snipe, I just haven't heard anyone say it!

Because although these areas have had RL for a long time, the interest in the French Elite is very low. SL would bring about a huge amount of local interest and awareness.

So it would expand media, sponsorship and general awareness inside traditional areas?

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i thought it was a post on an internet forum not a thesis for a masters degree??? i'd post mine but it is too long and complex for most on here to understand.............

Capital "I" please :D

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Guys the reality is the current SL is dying on its backside in terms of media/sponsorship and general awareness outside of the traditional areas.

Expanding the comp into France is the only way forward and i am 101% convinced that the crowds in France will respond also one has to remember the financial monies any new french teams will also receive from their local marie and region something the SL clubs in the UK can only dream of.

CM

A fair point but it's "I" and not "i"..............

The demise of London raised the specter of an M62 league which in this day and age won't IMHO attract any great sponsorship (albeit Mr. McManus feels the lack of major sponsorship is merely down to the RFL) so it's logical the SLE bigwigs would look to Toulouse again.

I'm interested in your point as regards local civic funding for French clubs (as opposed to Wakefield Council's not a penny attitude) as this is Toulouse's trump card along with local industry getting on board.

But all the riches in the world (as per Dr. Koukash) won't make Toulouse that competitive, let alone any third or fourth club. Les Cats have started the re-birth process for French RL and I feel it essential they aren't left as sole "outsiders" in an M62 league, so I'm fine with Toulouse, but their entry has to be the catalyst for further growth of the French game before any further moves to an Anglo-French league.

Dumping the odd non competitive M62 club to make way for one french club OK, but wholesale changes risk wholesale failure both sides of the Channel????

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Like who? That's not a snipe, I just haven't heard anyone say it!

It's OK, I didn't take it as a snipe.

Blake Solly and Ralph Rimmer have just visited France, and a second French club ebtering was one of the topics discussed.

http://www.to13.com/blake-solly-nous-avons-une-opportunite-de-developper-le-rugby-a-xiii-en-france/

"Blake SOLLY : L’impact serait bénéfique pour notre compétition mais aussi et surtout pour le développement du Rugby à XIII en France. L’intégration des Dragons Catalans en Super League a amené une nouvelle dynamique. Le club s’est très bien structuré, les Catalans se sont mobilisés derrière leur équipe et depuis quelques mois, BeIN SPORT diffuse l’ensemble de leurs matchs. Par conséquent, nous avons une opportunité de développer le rugby à XIII en France. Je suis convaincu que la Super League et le Rugby à XIII français sont complémentaires. L’arrivée d’une deuxième équipe française sera bénéfique pour l’Equipe de France."

Google translate:

"Blake SOLLY: The impact would be beneficial to our competition but also and especially for the development of Rugby League in France. The integration of Catalans Dragons in Super League has brought a new dynamic. The club is very well structured, the Catalans have rallied behind their team and for a few months, SPORT bein broadcast all their games. Therefore, we have an opportunity to develop rugby league in France. I am convinced that the Super League and Rugby League French are complementary. The arrival of a second French team will benefit Team France."

So it would expand media, sponsorship and general awareness inside traditional areas?

It depends what you mean by traditional. Traditional in that the area has an established RL club, yes. Traditional in that the area has a fully professional club? Definitely not. And that's how awareness, interest, participation and sponsorship will spread and grow.

Every area along the M62 already has this, and if anything it's saturated.

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You'd be lucky to get two squads of 20 French players from the elite 1, every team apart from st esteve 13 Catalan have at least 4 foreign players, Avignon,pia and Carcasonne have around 7 foreign players each, something needs to be done as the elite 1 is dieing,

Avignon v lezignan yesterday was a game to get a play off place and 700 fans turned up!

Kids are coming through but as they reach elite 1 they stagnate,

Elite 1 teams play on average once a fortnight, sometimes they don't play for a month and then play two weekends then have two weeks off,so you never-seem to know when they're playing, Carcasonne played last night and I had no idea, and I live 20 mins from there and am co coach of one of there feeder teams!

Alan playing in Elite1/2 at the moment you have the following who have all played for the Dragons in SL.

1 Stacul

2 Khattabi

3 Sadaoui

4 Quintilla

5 Vaccari

6 Gigot ( Cronulla Sharks reserves)

7 Marginet

8 Griffi

9 Kane Bentley

10 Martins (Whitehaven)

11 Gossard

12 Andrew Bentley

13 Baile

I've included Baile & Vaccari although they've played for Catalan this term but are not in the original 25 man squad. If someone like Toulouse were ready tomorrow players like them would be targetted I reckon. These two players plus Stacul, Gossard have more than 270 SL appearances under their belts.

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A fair point but it's "I" and not "i"..............

The demise of London raised the specter of an M62 league which in this day and age won't IMHO attract any great sponsorship

Do you mean spectre? ;-)

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Les Cats have started the re-birth process for French RL and I feel it essential they aren't left as sole "outsiders" in an M62 league, so I'm fine with Toulouse, but their entry has to be the catalyst for further growth of the French game before any further moves to an Anglo-French league.

Key/Spot on.

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