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Comparision between our youngsters and southern hemispheres.

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I know the general view at this current moment in time at international level is that we are way behind the Aussies and just behind the Kiwis but how do our players match up at the 17 - 22 age range.

Are the likes of Watkins, Ward, Bateman, Hughes, Farrel, Percival, Hardaker and Walmsley better than what the southern hemisphere have to offer at this age range? My view is that in 5 years time we may have a very strong squad on our hands.

What does everyone else think?

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In all honesty, the majority of the players you mentioned are a dime a dozen over there. Watkins is the only one that really stands out on the list but with ball in hand, he will be special. You have to remember though, he's the best English centre in SL but in Australia there's still probably 10 or more as good or better than him.

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For me its the funnel effect, because the Aussies have so much more talent in the pool initially than we Brits do, what comes out at the elite end is that bit sweeter than we can produce. In saying that though, traditionally our junior teams can beat the Aussies yr after year, the main problem is that these kids don't break into first team over here as they are held back behind ageing antipodians who come over at the end f their career for a payday, and instead end up dual registered.

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With Soccer being so popular, it is always going to be difficult to get large numbers of quality players in the UK.

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For me its the funnel effect, because the Aussies have so much more talent in the pool initially than we Brits do, what comes out at the elite end is that bit sweeter than we can produce. In saying that though, traditionally our junior teams can beat the Aussies yr after year, the main problem is that these kids don't break into first team over here as they are held back behind ageing antipodians who come over at the end f their career for a payday, and instead end up dual registered.

Are you sure about that?

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Unfortunately For me there is no comparison, with the NRL being so rich and popular the quality and depth of players that are churned out every year by the clubs in the NRL is frightening. If you look at the lastest batch of youngsters for Australia and NZ that have just established themselves or are breaking through into the first teams of clubs in the NRL it speaks volumes:

New Zealand youngsters: Australian youngsters:

Kevin Locke. Ben barba

Roger Tuivasa-sheck. Tau tau moga

Konrad hurrell. Will hopoate

Kieron foran. Jharal yow yeh

Shaun Johnson. Josh papalii

Glen fishiiahi. Adam Reynolds

Sam kasiano. David klemmer

Jason taumalolo. Kane Evans

Tohu Harris The Simms brothers

Kenny and Jesse bromwich. Tony Williams

Carlos tuimavave

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Agree with all that has been said about the larger playing pool over in Australia, though NZ still churn out some real quality youngsters and obviously NZ is a much smaller country, albeit one that has both rugby codes as two of its dominant sports, unlike over here.

I dont buy into this argument of overpaid over the hill aussie's keeping our juniors out of teams as being a factor though. And i've never believed we don't blood our youngsters and the Aussies do. In fact i've always thought it the reverse. I think we tend to through in our youngsters too early at times where as in Australia a young up and coming kid wont get thrown into an NRL game until he is ready. I don't think i can think of any kids making debuts in the NRL who have looked out of their league, where as over here in years gone by i can think of a few.. i guess theres arguments for and against, throwing kids in early and using that as part of their learning curve, or persisting with them at a lower level until they are ready for the step up.

I personally think the later is one of the reasons why NZ and Australia have been consistently better than us over the years.

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Is he? He is OK going forward, but his defence rivals that of my Grandma. Also, don't centres need passing skills?

At this stage in his career, despite looking good on his long raking runs, as a compete centre he is miles behind the likes of Goulding.

He puts his winger in for plenty of tries and has a great passing game and his defence isn't that bad when he's in the line. He just seems to be struggling making tackles when he has to make has to chime into the defensive line. Maybe you see his lack of passing game because he's been at full back this year and when he's made breaks there's not really been anyone to pass to. His flick pass and ability to draw the man and give it is one of the strongest parts of his game when he's actually at centre though.

I know I'm a Leeds fan, but I'm not one eyed. I don't say things like that because I'm bias. I don't think on this years form, Ablett or JJB should be anywhere near the England squad and I called JJB out about his Rhinos place a couple of weeks back.

Ask neutrals though who they're prefer out of Goulding and Watkins though and I bet the vast majority say Kallum.

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Is he? He is OK going forward, but his defence rivals that of my Grandma. Also, don't centres need passing skills?

At this stage in his career, despite looking good on his long raking runs, as a compete centre he is miles behind the likes of Goulding.

You are definitely a Wigan fan if you think Watkins is "miles behind Goulding". His defense is merely average, but his attacking abilities make him one of the most dagerous players in SL and by far England's best centre.

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Don't get me wrong, I think Watkins will be an awesome player soon, but I don't think he is quite there yet.

According to the stats he has made 1 assist this year, which may be OK whilst he is playing at full back, but will not cut it when he is in the centre.

Watkins is probably the only chance we have currently of ever having a centre like Inglis, but he won't get there for a while yet.

As far as Goulding goes, I have absolutely no idea how he doesn't get picked in the England squad.

He isn't there yet but he is the best in the league. His defence hasn't been a problem at centre for 2 years either.

Your comment about him having 1 assist "not cutting it" as a centre confuses me. You do realise he has played fullback in 8 of our 9 games this season right? In the 1 game he was centre, Sinfield set up 5 tries and McGuire the other.

Watkins has that xfactor in attack, the same way Sam Tomkins has. As a Leeds fan, there are players who worry you when they get the ball. Goulding has never once made me get even the slightest bit nervous when he has the ball. Watkins makes experienced defenders look silly.

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In all honesty, the majority of the players you mentioned are a dime a dozen over there. Watkins is the only one that really stands out on the list but with ball in hand, he will be special. You have to remember though, he's the best English centre in SL but in Australia there's still probably 10 or more as good or better than him.

Eventhought he is a good centre I wouldn't say he was the best in this country either.

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Eventhought he is a good centre I wouldn't say he was the best in this country either.

Who would you say is? There aren't many decent ones. Atkins is inconsistent, Yeaman hasn't done anything this decade.

I am not saying Watkins is world class, I'm saying he is the best we currently have and is improving year on year.

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Unfortunately For me there is no comparison, with the NRL being so rich and popular the quality and depth of players that are churned out everyar by the clubs in the NRL is frightening. If you look at the lastest batch of youngsters for Australia and NZ that have just established themselves or are breaking through into the first teams of clubs in the NRL it speaks volumes:

New Zealand youngsters: Australian youngsters:

Kevin Locke. Ben barba

Roger Tuivasa-sheck. Tau tau moga

Konrad hurrell. Will hopoate

Kieron foran. Jharal yow yeh

Shaun Johnson. Josh papalii

Glen fishiiahi. Adam Reynolds

Sam kasiano. David klemmer

Jason taumalolo. Kane Evans

Tohu Harris The Simms brothers

Kenny and Jesse bromwich. Tony Williams

Carlos tuimavave

The NZ ones look a lot better than the Aus ones IMO. But is Yow Yeh better than Charnley. Barba and Williams are both pretty much 24 like Tomkins and S Burgess and I'd rather have the latter. G Burgess and L Burgess have been playing in the NRL less than 2 years between them and are earning rave reviews. Would the players who I named if playing NRL would be considered higher.

I guess it's hard to tell obviously with playing in different leagues but some form of under 23s matches would be brilliant to watch IMO.

Also Watkins is better than goulding, goulding is above average all round but Watkins is world class in attack but a tad vulnerable defensively but his attack way out shines his defence.

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Unfortunately For me there is no comparison, with the NRL being so rich and popular the quality and depth of players that are churned out every year by the clubs in the NRL is frightening. If you look at the lastest batch of youngsters for Australia and NZ that have just established themselves or are breaking through into the first teams of clubs in the NRL it speaks volumes:

New Zealand youngsters: Australian youngsters:

Kevin Locke. Ben barba

Roger Tuivasa-sheck. Tau tau moga

Konrad hurrell. Will hopoate

Kieron foran. Jharal yow yeh

Shaun Johnson. Josh papalii

Glen fishiiahi. Adam Reynolds

Sam kasiano. David klemmer

Jason taumalolo. Kane Evans

Tohu Harris The Simms brothers

Kenny and Jesse bromwich. Tony Williams

Carlos tuimavave

Those Aussies are a bunch of no-names or guys that are 23-24 already. Australia could conceivably be 3rd in the world in a couple of years, obviously that won't sit well with the idiots who think that Aussie RL players are some sort of invincible superhuman breed.

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OK, so it will be fine if Watkins scores two, and lets Inglis past him for four. That will work just great.

So your assumption is that if Watkins plays Inglis will score four due to running over him? Pretty far assumption. Most centres one on one with Inglis 5m from the line will struggle to keep him out.

Also Inglis is dire in one on one defense he is very easily beaten by a decent side step, wonder which England centre has one of those.

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So your assumption is that if Watkins plays Inglis will score four due to running over him? Pretty far assumption. Most centres one on one with Inglis 5m from the line will struggle to keep him out.

Also Inglis is dire in one on one defense he is very easily beaten by a decent side step, wonder which England centre has one of those.

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I have NEVER seen anyone run past Watkins 4 times :lol:

People are really exaggerating his "poor" defense. Last year not 1 centre got the better of him over 80 mins and he faced some decent centres.

There are 2 backs in this country that actually have something special about them and one day could be near the top. Sam Tomkins and Kallum Watkins. People actually judging him are going by watching him miss 1 tackle a game playing out of position where defending is different.

Also, Josh Morris is the current Aussie centre and his defense is pretty similar to Kallums. Strange hey?!

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Maybe because he doesn't come up against Inglis every week.

So you're basing this on guess work?

Also, Inglis runs over everyone he plays against. You're talking like Goulding is some super human in D. He's not. He's not a bad player, but he's not an international player and I'd be shocked if a guy with his skill set ever gets a shot at International level.

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I have to say I think Farrell's work rate would be noticed and appreciated in the NRL.

 

Admittedly he hasn't got the x factor that Tomkins and Watkins have but he'd be well regarded over there. Its not just the flare players that get noticed.

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A player who cannot defend should never play at international level, full stop.

You cannot afford to carry luxury players against the top sides in the world.

Jesus! He can defend! He's a good defender! You're basing your views on his defensive play from seeing him miss 3 tackles in sky games while playing out of position in a different role that has nothing to do with how you would defend as a centre. At centre no one runs over the top of him. He moves up with the line and makes the tackle. At full back he's having to chime into the defense when someone else messes up and make a tackle on a guy already at full speed while approaching the play from a different angle. It's just something he's not used to and it's why he's missed a few. He's made some good ones though. You act like he's a turnstyle. Personally, I think it's because you're a Wigan fan and you can't see past your own players when it comes to everyone else.

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I agree with the opinion that anyone who opposes Inglis will probably lose. It's unfair to rate Watkins based on that alone. I remember when people used to compare Leon Pryce to Inglis.

barrowraiderskid,

Where does this idea of Inglis being a bad defender come from? I've read it a few times on here, but no where else. Maybe it's you each time, but you're wrong.

He's one of the better defenders from the backs and he reads play better than most. He came up with one if the best defensive plays of last season. Uate has a deadly step, but on that occasion, he only stepped into Inglis' massive frame dead. Inglis also ended up with the ball.

I know that's only one play, but it's one a poor defender would never make.

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Agreed, Inglis is a solid defender as well as a devastating runner of the ball

Attacking Players have been passing the ball rather than take him on one on one at Fullback.

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Just for Franksy,

 

Defensive comparison as a centre, 2012:

 

Watkins - Tackles 385, Missed 26, Percentage 94%

Goulding - Tackles 320, Missed 31, Percentage 91%

 

Defensive comparison as a full back, 2013:

 

Watkins - Tackles 71, Missed 7, Percentage 91%

Tomkins - Tackles 42, Missed 8, Percentage 84%

 

 

Your move Franksy ;)

 

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Just for Franksy,

 

Defensive comparison as a centre, 2012:

 

Watkins - Tackles 385, Missed 26, Percentage 94%

Goulding - Tackles 320, Missed 31, Percentage 91%

 

Defensive comparison as a full back, 2013:

 

Watkins - Tackles 71, Missed 7, Percentage 91%

Tomkins - Tackles 42, Missed 8, Percentage 84%

 

 

Your move Franksy ;)

 

You might notice I praised Watkins above (I'd definitely not Franksy he'd be ahead of Goulding for me... who is solid) but in your comparison with Tomkins you've missed three other essential stats:

 

Watkins - Tries 2 - Try Assists 1 - Tackle busts 27

Tomkins - Tries 10 - Try Assists 8 - tackle busts 36

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You might notice I praised Watkins above (I'd definitely not Franksy he'd be ahead of Goulding for me... who is solid) but in your comparison with Tomkins you've missed three other essential stats:

Watkins - Tries 2 - Try Assists 1 - Tackle busts 27

Tomkins - Tries 10 - Try Assists 8 - tackle busts 36

I have said Tomkins is the best in the country too. Franksy said he would never have a weak defender in the England team though as they would be a liability. The whole thing about Watkins, from his point of view, is that he is a very bad defender. My comparisons were there to show him that he is in fact better than Goulding and when looking I noticed that he has been better than Sam this year too. Franksy wouldn't have Watkins in the international team though because he can't tackle apparently.

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