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goldcoaster

RIP Hull KR?

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Brighouse - which I specifically mentioned - is on the Calder...

 

And its about 5 miles from Odsal.  Downhill all the way, the way valleys do.

 

And the family who sit in front of me at Odsal live in or near Brighouse.

 

As do a number of other Bulls fans I know, including several who were on the Bullbuilder board.

 

And places like Cleackheaton are on rivers that flow down into the Calder. Indeed, one of the sources of that river, is just over the back of the stadium.  Rivers flow down valleys?

 

So, I don't understand your point.

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You said Odsal overlooks the Calder Valley. I was pointing out that the Calder Valley is a difference place to where you think it is. Brighouse is on the Calder, but its not and never has been part of the Calder Valley. As I said the Calder Valley is in another area west of Halifax which features Hebden Bridge, Todmorden etc

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The Calder Valley is the valley that the Calder runs through.  It starts up above Todmorden, and peters out around Wakefield.

 

The Aire valley is the valley that the Aire runs through.  It starts below Malham Tarn and peters out after Leeds.

 

The Wharfe Valley is the valley that the Wharfe runs through.  It starts up in the Dales, and peters out somewhere well East of Otley.

 

They are all quite long rivers.  And therefore long valleys.

 

I would have thought it was perfectly clear what I was referring to; and, in particular, why I was emphasising that much of the Bulls hinterland is on the Calder side of the watershed as opposed to the Aire side.  I can't see any merit in trying to be clever, personally, but I guess each to his own.

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What I will say is that the club will always survive, even in the lower divisions. (Which I think are better anyway as every season in the lower leagues I really thought at the start of every season we had a chance of winning! I have never once thought that in "Super League")

I will never support a merged club in any shape or form as I support Hull Kingston Rovers, this is my team and it is my team for life. Even if we play on Tower Grange with Dockers.

Very fine and loyal sentiments sir.

I don't think there's any expectation (nor should there be in a free world) that anyone should switch to Superleague although less staunch fans than yourself may well do.

The question is if HKR ended their Superleague days would the next few generations of fans from east hull refuse to go watch Hull because their grandad was a Rovers fan?

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You said Odsal overlooks the Calder Valley. I was pointing out that the Calder Valley is a difference place to where you think it is. Brighouse is on the Calder, but its not and never has been part of the Calder Valley. As I said the Calder Valley is in another area west of Halifax which features Hebden Bridge, Todmorden etc

Does this change the fact that from Odsal top I can either drive through Shelf and down to the Shay or go along the Fartown road to Huddersfield??

Great in the days of local rivalries fuelling a semi pro game.

Not so good when the area doesn't throw up a thriving SL club.

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That's a very interesting analysis thank you Adeybull. At the height of Courarmania Keighley averaged 4,781 fans. Sadly the business was heavily in debt.

Ironic that isn't it that at the height of their attraction as a club they were at the financial depths.

I don't know where these fans came from but I guess many were from keighley, dormant supporters willing to follow their local side on condition that local side is winning games heading for Superleague, and that the local side gets in Superleague and competes.

But 5,000 fans wasn't enough to pay the bills just as it won't pay the bills at Salford, nor will 6,000 pay the bills at Widnes and 7,000 won't pay the bills at Fartown, Cas or HKR.

The reality may well be most Keighley born and bred people will watch keighley in SL but not Bradford. I'm sure that thousands of HKR fans will watch HKR in Superleague but never Hull. These local rivalries were great for the old semi pro game but they work against us now.

Will these rivalries ever subside? They have in Leeds, and IMHO people in south Leeds attend Headingley in numbers.

 

Well, you have completely changed tack from the Bulls supposed support in Keighley to the failures of the Cougars. two completely different subjects.

 

Since you have steered the thread there and  I will once again give a synopsis of the Cougars demise and destruction.

 

There are two facets to this.

 

1. Keighley embarked on a risky strategy of risking all for the ultimate prize and rewards associated with it of promotion to SL. If it failed they would have paid the price that they did, bankruptcy and almost extinction.

 

The sad part of it is that this strategy suceeded and they won their promotion off the field but were denied it off the field by two sets of goal post moving by the SL cabal, who wanted no part of them. The first was the ground requirements and the second was the abolition of p and r halfway through the season ( THATS HALFWAY THROUGH ) when the expectation and promise at the beginning of the season was that p and r was in place.

 

2. The second part of this is that once promotion was denied ( even though it was re instated once they got rid of Keighley) was that the loss of Sky money, loss of revenue from increased crowds from SL fixtures and the wirthdrawal of rumoured investors all combined to create the conditions whereby the risky outcome of failing to win promotion came to pass.

 

  To return to the subject of the thread, namely the catchment areas and geographical proximity of teams being an impediment to progress.

 

Keighley, as you say were averaging 4,700 in the second tier. They would have increased that number in SL and further marketing ( and don't forget they were masters of marketing) would have extended their reach to the hinterlands to the north of Keighley up the aire valley.

 

Now all those spectators, bar the 700 hardy souls who still support the Cougars, have been lost to RL. They have not transferred their allegiance to the Bulls, trust me on that.

 

This was the price the wider game in general and the Cougars paid in particular paid for the lack of ambition and goal post moving excercises of the ruling initial SL cabal.

 

  The 10,000 average for survival in SL is a bridge too far for most of the clubs and is tilting at windmills. The league needs to be restructured to allow survival in the 7,000 range. The elite few who do achieve the holy grail of 10,000 can contribute to a revenue sharing scheme if they can't find anything to spend their money on.

 

Such a restructuring would eliminate the proximity problem for the most part and would allow more clubs to compete in SL from the lower tiers and help diversify the SL product, something that is needed to prevent stagnation and regression. A successful Keighley or Barrow or Doncaster or Sheffield would improve the reach and attractiveness of the league immeasureably.

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Does this change the fact that from Odsal top I can either drive through Shelf and down to the Shay or go along the Fartown road to Huddersfield??

Great in the days of local rivalries fuelling a semi pro game.

Not so good when the area doesn't throw up a thriving SL club.

Ah yes Bradford that thriving SL club that had to have the RFL save its ###### and con people into giving them money. The club that went bust in the 60s and had to beg to get players. Sadly there are very few SL clubs that thrive and often SL clubs are living way beyond their means as history has shown us.

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The Calder Valley is the valley that the Calder runs through.  It starts up above Todmorden, and peters out around Wakefield.

 

The Aire valley is the valley that the Aire runs through.  It starts below Malham Tarn and peters out after Leeds.

 

The Wharfe Valley is the valley that the Wharfe runs through.  It starts up in the Dales, and peters out somewhere well East of Otley.

 

They are all quite long rivers.  And therefore long valleys.

 

I would have thought it was perfectly clear what I was referring to; and, in particular, why I was emphasising that much of the Bulls hinterland is on the Calder side of the watershed as opposed to the Aire side.  I can't see any merit in trying to be clever, personally, but I guess each to his own.

If you think that Brighouse is in the Calder Valley fine. But the Calder Valley is known locally as an area where the Calder flows from Todmorden down to Mytholmroyd on to Sowerby Bridge. I know nobody who has reffered to Brighouse as being part of the Calder Valley. The Calder is a longish river but that doesnt mean the whole strecth is known as the Calder Valley.

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Ever noticed that when some folk make a prat of themsleves, they resort to derision and general unpleasantness?

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To return to the subject of the thread....

 

1. Keighley, as you say were averaging 4,700 in the second tier. Now all those spectators, bar the 700 hardy souls who still support the Cougars, have been lost to RL. They have not transferred their allegiance to the Bulls, trust me on that.

2. The 10,000 average for survival in SL is a bridge too far for most of the clubs and is tilting at windmills. The league needs to be restructured to allow survival in the 7,000 range. The elite few who do achieve the holy grail of 10,000 can contribute to a revenue sharing scheme if they can't find anything to spend their money on.

 

3. A successful Keighley or Barrow or Doncaster or Sheffield would improve the reach and attractiveness of the league immeasureably.

1. I trust you, but you trust me that it's no good having any fans if you run at a loss.

2. Then my question of deluded pom is one you may care to answer. How does taking £4,000,000 of wages out of Superleague by dropping the cap drastically benefit Superleague.

3. Please explain how?

Please especially explain how Keighley, Barrow Sheffield or Doncaster will get 7,000 crowds???

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If you think that Brighouse is in the Calder Valley fine. But the Calder Valley is known locally as an area where the Calder flows from Todmorden down to Mytholmroyd on to Sowerby Bridge. I know nobody who has reffered to Brighouse as being part of the Calder Valley. The Calder is a longish river but that doesnt mean the whole strecth is known as the Calder Valley.

 

So what IS the valley that the river Calder flows through called generically then?  The Thames valley?

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Ah yes Bradford that thriving SL club that had to have the RFL save its ###### and con people into giving them money. The club that went bust in the 60s and had to beg to get players. Sadly there are very few SL clubs that thrive and often SL clubs are living way beyond their means as history has shown us.

So should Bradford be in Superleague then?

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If you think that Brighouse is in the Calder Valley fine. But the Calder Valley is known locally as an area where the Calder flows from Todmorden down to Mytholmroyd on to Sowerby Bridge. I know nobody who has reffered to Brighouse as being part of the Calder Valley. The Calder is a longish river but that doesnt mean the whole strecth is known as the Calder Valley.

The Calder Valley has very distinctive geography all the way to Wakefield so what else would you call it? The Airedale estate in Castleford bears no resemblance to Malham but it is still in Airedale.

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Correct but if you said "Calder Valley in the Halifax area, then most, if not all would think you was talking about The Calder Valley between Todmorden and Mytholmroyd. Brighouse didnt used to be in the "Calder Valley" and think it was sometime in the 80s it got brought in. However you are correct in that it is in the Calder Valley constituency. A couple of friends who I played Rugby with are from the Brighouse/Hipperholme area and they would never say that Brighouse is in the Calder Valley as such. More that Brighouse is a town that has the River Calder going through it.

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So, let me see if i've finally got this right?

 

We are talking about places in the Calder valley, that are in Calder Valley, but are not in The Calder Valley despite being in the valley with the Calder running through it?

 

Is that different to Calderdale?

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1. I trust you, but you trust me that it's no good having any fans if you run at a loss.

2. Then my question of deluded pom is one you may care to answer. How does taking £4,000,000 of wages out of Superleague by dropping the cap drastically benefit Superleague.

3. Please explain how?

Please especially explain how Keighley, Barrow Sheffield or Doncaster will get 7,000 crowds???

 1. the fact that they were denied SL money, extra gate revenue and possible investor money wouls have contributed substantially to the losses.

 

2 If 4,000,000 is removed from expednitures then obvioulsy it will allow clubs to make ends meet easier than if they have to come up with the 4 mill.

 

3. Keighley inceased their gates from 500 to 4,700. Sheffield have gone fron 500 to 1200 and, in their previous incarnation had over 4,000 averages. if the new Don Valley stadium comes off then hey.  Doncaster, in their one distastrous season in the top tier had over 3,000. They used to average 250. Now they are in the keepmoat. If they can build for the future their attendnces should increase. Barrow have had gates ranging fom the hundreds to several thousand. i seem to remember 14,000 when Keith Jarrett made his debut for them.

 

The true answer is that I don't exactly know how they will get 7,000. Attendances fluctuate. Wakefield from 1000 to 8,000, Wigan from 4,000 to 14,000, the famous Bulls from 250 to 15,000 and all stops in between. What did Catalans average before SL ?  Give them a chance and see what they can do. How are Salford going to get to 7,000. they havn't averaged thAt since the 1960s but they might now their circumtances are what they are. They have had several attendances in the 2,000 range this season but you couldn't rule out th effects of a new stadium and new cashed up ambitious owners.

 

London are touted for SL, as are Toulouse ( do they average 7,000 ). No they are works in progress and so would those othwer teams you so love to run down

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RIP Hull KR? RIP This thread more like. Why do Parky and keighley poison each thread they stamp all over?

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Sorry - took the rant out, I too think the clubs and fans are just as much to blame as the RFL but not having a go at anyone.

You ask "how has a game that we used to deride for being watched by "two men and a dog" built itself such a following that the top clubs attract crowds that regularly outnumber those at comparable RL games?"

Well in the old days two men and a dog watched RU amateur games played on parks particularly Richmond Park and Saracens home venue I believe.

Now they play fully professional in modern stadia and the clubs are largely competitive, they have attracted tens of thousands of new fans. It seems to me we can deduce that people will watch professional Rugby designed to attract the crowds, and designed to cater for them.

I don't see any difference when we went professional. Our clubs who have gone fully pro, improved their stadiums, have made an effort to put on a show, and are competing, have equally put on thousands of fans. Maybe Wigan and Leeds were already doing this before 1996, but Wire, Catalans, Bradford, Saints, Hull followed.

So I don't see a great difference. Sure only 2000 wanted to watch Salford, but only 2,000 wanted to watch Leeds Carnegie.

The list above for RL includes seven clubs and you can't make a league out of that and I think we need to try to get more clubs up to scratch.

I also think that Union who have a much bigger player base stop at 12 clubs, and don't look to be all inclusive for a reason. Maybe it's selfish? Maybe they felt a limited elite league was the best model for attracting the most fans and sponsors?

Maybe the difference is they have a whole new audience to go at whereas we as a semi pro game in 1996 already had an audience and have felt that we have to cater to the fans needs and wishes otherwise all would be lost. Many of those needs and wishes are stuck in the past.

But we are now losing it and if the model both codes seemingly throw up is to have a limited size league, with quality and competitiveness and get as many paying fans watching that, we may be OK.

But to do that means creating a Superlegue that is first and foremost financially stable, secondly is stable in terms of the clubs in it, and thirdly looks to attract every RL fan new and old to the selected clubs.

I think that has actually been going on for many years in our game, but not in any sort of a structured way. Part manipulation (cut P & R off), part left to chance (tout clubs to rich owners). The time may come when those who run the game will just say that's it. These are the clubs for Superleague until we say otherwise, and these clubs will get everything.

 

 

Thanks.

 

FWIW I agree with pretty much everything that you say there. I suppose the advantage that RU has had so far is that real professionalism is new in their sport, leaving them to be much more imaginative from the start. If only RL could recruit a blue-sky thinker to its heirarchy.

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Brighouse - which I specifically mentioned - is on the Calder...

 

And its about 5 miles from Odsal.  Downhill all the way, the way valleys do.

 

And the family who sit in front of me at Odsal live in or near Brighouse.

 

As do a number of other Bulls fans I know, including several who were on the Bullbuilder board.

 

And places like Cleackheaton are on rivers that flow down into the Calder. Indeed, one of the sources of that river, is just over the back of the stadium.  Rivers flow down valleys?

 

So, I don't understand your point.

 

 

 

How can anyone ever accuse RL of being parochial?

 

 

 

:( :(

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RIP Hull KR? RIP This thread more like. Why do Parky and keighley poison each thread they stamp all over?

I find the ignore button very useful.

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Correct but if you said "Calder Valley in the Halifax area, then most, if not all would think you was talking about The Calder Valley between Todmorden and Mytholmroyd. Brighouse didnt used to be in the "Calder Valley" and think it was sometime in the 80s it got brought in. However you are correct in that it is in the Calder Valley constituency. A couple of friends who I played Rugby with are from the Brighouse/Hipperholme area and they would never say that Brighouse is in the Calder Valley as such. More that Brighouse is a town that has the River Calder going through it.

Good God - what's the title of this thread again?

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Thanks.

 

FWIW I agree with pretty much everything that you say there. I suppose the advantage that RU has had so far is that real professionalism is new in their sport, leaving them to be much more imaginative from the start. If only RL could recruit a blue-sky thinker to its heirarchy.

I would also say they are run by a proper and strong 'governing body' which makes the decisions, unlike rl which has a seriously weak governing body which we are again witnessing with the continuing debacle over the DR policy.

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RIP Hull KR? RIP This thread more like. Why do Parky and keighley poison each thread they stamp all over?

We're having a discussion. Why do you have to act like this?

If we're doing anything wrong then report it.

I think it's poison when you can't live and let live.

As Gingerjon says use the ignore button, I do.

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Thanks.

 

FWIW I agree with pretty much everything that you say there. I suppose the advantage that RU has had so far is that real professionalism is new in their sport, leaving them to be much more imaginative from the start. If only RL could recruit a blue-sky thinker to its heirarchy.

No problem Johnny, I agree with you!

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