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goldcoaster

RIP Hull KR?

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By what criteria?

 

 

I just come up with the ideas, I don't write the constitution.

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Your not (or red dwarf is not, I don't know due to the vagaries of the board posting problems)being clear at all here, and the idea HKR's promotion had fans thinking I must go and watch Hull FC.....

"So essentially HKR s promotion improved FC s attendances , or at least it is concievable they contributed to it ?"

which others have concluded, is an astonishing conclusion to some very basic stats and facts.

Hull's crowds had built up steadily from their 5741 in 1998 due to promotion and their team improving, then the switch to the KC really had the fans going, they then won the cup and they then went on in 2006 to be runners up in the league and went to Old Trafford for the 2007 grand final.

Forgive me if my argument is somehow "contrived" but I always thought getting to the top of the game, getting to finals and actually winning things was and remains the biggest catalyst for fan growth?

If not can people please be clear what is??

Because if the revival of an old rival is what the fans actually want then Hetherington had better set about getting Hunslet promoted to Superleague. Featherstone had best push for Cas to still be around when they get promoted, because local rivalry seemingly comes way before success as a way to build a big regular crowd.

Hulls 2007 opener was against Catalans who bring few fans (12700) and they they were next at home to Wakefield (13,229) games played before they took on Rovers. I can't swallow the idea that the additional Hull fans were all turning up to these games because HKR had now arrived on the scene.

How does that work??

And if HKR being in SL boosts Hulls crowds why did they then fall away and why now that they have played Catalans again only in this recent case just manage to creep over the 10,000?

Is it because since Hudgell has announced major problems at HKR HullFC fans have decided they aren't that interested in watching Rugby League any more.

Before the childish Hull bashing accusations start this is about how clubs support grows, and how clubs support can be limited in growth if another club nearby is chasing the same new fans. It could be the same principle as to how could a promoted Fev pull fans from Pontefract if Cas up the road were rejuvinated, and Wakefield got Newmarket.

Or how would Leigh's crowds go in SL if people in and in centres of population around the town have gravitated to Wigan over the years? Or where a Halifax crowd will come from if Bulls and fartown continue to do well.

I I said it was ' concievable ' that they contributed to an increase , not that it was only or mainly that reason , if you want to use that argument then essentially the etra 5/6,000 rovers fans who were not attending in the NL s should have been at the KC following Hull

 

But they werent , were they

 

if you were to start from scratch with a new sport to an area , then yes , ideally you only want 1 club in each area , but we dont have that , we have history , now if you want to lose 5/6,000 rovers fans for a few decades so that their children and their childrens children might start following hull then fine , personally I think its a stupid idea

 

As for players then explain how a relatively small area like wigan borough can produce so many quality players ? , it doesn't just come down to numbers , why do Brazil produce the best football players in the world ?

 

It isn't an exact science , building player and support bases has many facets to it , not just numbers

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I said it was ' concievable ' that they contributed to an increase , not that it was only or mainly that reason , if you want to use that argument then essentially the etra 5/6,000 rovers fans who were not attending in the NL s should have been at the KC following Hull

 

But they werent , were they

 

if you were to start from scratch with a new sport to an area , then yes , ideally you only want 1 club in each area , but we dont have that , we have history , now if you want to lose 5/6,000 rovers fans for a few decades so that their children and their childrens children might start following hull then fine , personally I think its a stupid idea

I'd rather you debated it through than came to the early conclusion it's "stupid".

it's fair to conclude IMHO the latent support base for HKR in the main did not attend the KC and watch Hull. However as new fans came along in the city they obviously did gravitate to watch Hull.F.C.

The crowds were at 4,300 in 1999 and eight years later were at 13,000 taking out the Hull derbies.

No logical connection with Rovers I agree, just a rejuvinated Hull FC drawing in fans by the thousands old and new.

The problem of your "lost fans" argument - 6,000 to 7,000 fro Rovers is that it doesn't take into account the economics of the situation.

Hudgell took HKR back to the top division and the 7,000 HKR fans he attracted to the club ended up losing Hudgell £500,000 a year.

Now IF (and i hope it doesn't happen) HKR drop to the championship the game may well lose most of those 7,000 if they cannot bring themselves to watch Hull or Rovers in the championship.

But you have to remember that they are a PROBLEM in Superleague not a virtue, in that they are not enough to turn break even never mind turn a profit.

Alternatively, without HKR in superleague, if Hull can get all the best juniors and all the new RL fans in the city they can compete better and attract bigger crowds. They certainly can get back to going to Wembley and Old Trafford and they certainly can get back up to 13,000 fans and over the generations certainly see the city become all black and white, as Leeds is all blue and amber.

What is "stupid" is to look at crowd numbers as a snapshot in time, completely ignore the economics of the situation, and assume support passes genetically.

If you started a business and you needed 50 customers a week to break even and you only got 20 they'd be no good to you would they?

What I certainly don't buy is the idea staunch support passes from generation to generation. I think people make up their own minds........

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You missed my point. Calderdale's population is more than big enough for Fax to get good crowds from, regardless of Bradford and Huddersfield doing well.

I still don't get it?

In 1996 when the chosen few set off on their Superleague journey Calderdale responded to Halifax's inclusion and sixth place finish by turning up at an average of 5,000 fans.

That sort of crowd would lose halifax hundreds of thousand of pounds a year today and that is evidenced by HKR losing £500,000 a year on 7,500 crowds and Cas being totally skint from 7,000 crowds.

In 1998 when Halifax came third in SL their crowds were 5,600.

In contrast Bradford. Leeds and Wigan who finished either side of halifax were averaging 12,000.

In 2003 when Halifax came bottom they averaged under 3,000 and has 1276 against London. The sort of crowd that London, Salford etc have been ridiculed for this year.

I'm not Halifax bashing as Dead shot keen may suggest. I just want to look at things factually.

I love the club and was there when they got the point to be champions and when they won the cup.

Those successes led to 1989's attendances to get to 8,000.

Today in Superleague that level of support would lose the club money.

There is no evidence at all that a Halifax in superleague would generate adequate support even if they were competing with the big boys.

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I'd rather you debated it through than came to the early conclusion it's "stupid".

it's fair to conclude IMHO the latent support base for HKR in the main did not attend the KC and watch Hull. However as new fans came along in the city they obviously did gravitate to watch Hull.F.C.

The crowds were at 4,300 in 1999 and eight years later were at 13,000 taking out the Hull derbies.

No logical connection with Rovers I agree, just a rejuvinated Hull FC drawing in fans by the thousands old and new.

The problem of your "lost fans" argument - 6,000 to 7,000 fro Rovers is that it doesn't take into account the economics of the situation.

Hudgell took HKR back to the top division and the 7,000 HKR fans he attracted to the club ended up losing Hudgell £500,000 a year.

Now IF (and i hope it doesn't happen) HKR drop to the championship the game may well lose most of those 7,000 if they cannot bring themselves to watch Hull or Rovers in the championship.

But you have to remember that they are a PROBLEM in Superleague not a virtue, in that they are not enough to turn break even never mind turn a profit.

Alternatively, without HKR in superleague, if Hull can get all the best juniors and all the new RL fans in the city they can compete better and attract bigger crowds. They certainly can get back to going to Wembley and Old Trafford and they certainly can get back up to 13,000 fans and over the generations certainly see the city become all black and white, as Leeds is all blue and amber.

What is "stupid" is to look at crowd numbers as a snapshot in time, completely ignore the economics of the situation, and assume support passes genetically.

If you started a business and you needed 50 customers a week to break even and you only got 20 they'd be no good to you would they?

What I certainly don't buy is the idea staunch support passes from generation to generation. I think people make up their own minds........

Lots of ' Ifs ' , but to dismiss local rivalry as a catalyst to improve the number of fans is strange considering that local derbies tend to be the biggest or close to the biggest attendances most clubs get

 

I will debate any issue although I unlike your good self dont need to post pages of waffle when a couple of lines will do

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I still don't get it?

In 1996 when the chosen few set off on their Superleague journey Calderdale responded to Halifax's inclusion and sixth place finish by turning up at an average of 5,000 fans.

That sort of crowd would lose halifax hundreds of thousand of pounds a year today and that is evidenced by HKR losing £500,000 a year on 7,500 crowds and Cas being totally skint from 7,000 crowds.

In 1998 when Halifax came third in SL their crowds were 5,600.

In contrast Bradford. Leeds and Wigan who finished either side of halifax were averaging 12,000.

In 2003 when Halifax came bottom they averaged under 3,000 and has 1276 against London. The sort of crowd that London, Salford etc have been ridiculed for this year.

I'm not Halifax bashing as Dead shot keen may suggest. I just want to look at things factually.

I love the club and was there when they got the point to be champions and when they won the cup.

Those successes led to 1989's attendances to get to 8,000.

Today in Superleague that level of support would lose the club money.

There is no evidence at all that a Halifax in superleague would generate adequate support even if they were competing with the big boys.

I mean there are over 200,000 people in Calderdale. This means that there are enough people whole live there for Huddersfield and Bradford doing well not to have any impact on Halifax's potential crowds. However, how many of them are interested on rugby or could be tempted to go watch Fax is unknown, other than the small crowds they currently get. Halifax could have good crowds, just like London, Sheffield, York, Doncaster etc could potentially get them. I don't think any of them would or will. But the potential is there.

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Lots of ' Ifs ' , but to dismiss local rivalry as a catalyst to improve the number of fans is strange considering that local derbies tend to be the biggest or close to the biggest attendances most clubs get

 

I will debate any issue although I unlike your good self dont need to post pages of waffle when a couple of lines will do

"IF" a couple of lines will do to largely ignore the debate and deliver a "you post woffle" excuse for not engaging, then go ahead and carry on in that "stupid" vein.

I'll concede local rivalry has boosted support at the KC this year by about 7000 over the average Hull get. If you think that's a great way to achieve financial success then go ahead and think it.

They won't get that sort of crowd in the return HKR.v.Hull last year was 9,000 a real money spinner that was.

When Hulls crowd without the rivalry was building to over 13,000 during the years when they were admired and not laughed at that was a much better position to be in on the field off the field and at the bank.

I wonder "IF" your a HKR fan, because all this woffle about how people are attracted to Rugby League through local rivalry rather than a desire to support their own club, has no other logical explanation than it probably personally suits you to believe it.

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I mean there are over 200,000 people in Calderdale. This means that there are enough people whole live there for Huddersfield and Bradford doing well not to have any impact on Halifax's potential crowds. However, how many of them are interested on rugby or could be tempted to go watch Fax is unknown, other than the small crowds they currently get. Halifax could have good crowds, just like London, Sheffield, York, Doncaster etc could potentially get them. I don't think any of them would or will. But the potential is there.

Well it's time to agree to disagree ANO

I don't think we can work on "potential" crowds we don't think "any of them would or will" get

I prefer the reality of the figures and the figures are their for Halifax. Up to 8,000 crowds when they were winning trophies down to 1,200 when they struggled at the bottom of SL.

Maybe if Calderdale had 400,000 people like Bradford the potential would be there to top 10K.

Maybe Huddersfields population isn't enough to deliver a regular 10K crowd

What seemingly delivers crowds in reality is a combination of a large catchment area with a significant RL culture.

Maybe Halifax should start a second club in calderdale so the local rivalry will boost the crowds!!! I'm told it works......

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Well it's time to agree to disagree ANO

I don't think we can work on "potential" crowds we don't think "any of them would or will" get

I prefer the reality of the figures and the figures are their for Halifax. Up to 8,000 crowds when they were winning trophies down to 1,200 when they struggled at the bottom of SL.

Maybe if Calderdale had 400,000 people like Bradford the potential would be there to top 10K.

Maybe Huddersfields population isn't enough to deliver a regular 10K crowd

What seemingly delivers crowds in reality is a combination of a large catchment area with a significant RL culture.

Maybe Halifax should start a second club in calderdale so the local rivalry will boost the crowds!!! I'm told it works......

 

 

What were Bradford's attendances pre SL when they were winning trophies? Less than they are now. Maybe if Halifax had a huge marketing push and gave away plenty of freebies they might average 10,000+.

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What were Bradford's attendances pre SL when they were winning trophies? Less than they are now. Maybe if Halifax had a huge marketing push and gave away plenty of freebies they might average 10,000+.

Well they didn't win anything much but the Yorkshire cup when they were getting 5,500 crowds.

1996 they passed 10,000 with Bullmania and 1997 when the won Superleague they hit 15,000.

The anecdotal evidence at the time was they were drawing them in from all over including places like Batley, Halifax and Huddersfield.....

Not sure of your point.......

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Just To Be Clear said: “Just to be clear, I agree, they [san Antonio Spurs] are successful for those reasons and not because of a generous benefactor model.”

Well, no. This is to miss the point entirely. The point is that all NBA franchises have a wealthy benefactor and all but a small number of them lose money year in, year out. This was at the heart of the recent amendment to the CBA (Collective Bargaining Agreement) and subsequent lockout as the owners of the small market sides (their Hudgell, Davy & O’Connor equivalents) were becoming increasingly concerned at the size of their losses in the tough climate and also the fact that the bigger market sides were becoming more able to stockpile groups of elite players. The result? A more punitive “luxury tax” to keep the big sides out of it (ie within the cap) or at least give more back to the little guys when they did dare venture there. The collectivism that has been mentioned in this thread, basically, and that allowed the small market sides to still be attractive and competitive propositions. There was a good phrase that came out of the subsequent futile and slightly greedy player union dig in that cost the league a few months while the lawyers thrashed it out - “Billionaires will always win out over millionaires”. In other words, the owners dictate the direction of the league, not the players. And rightly so IMHO.

And the idea that San Antonio Spurs or any other small to mid-level US franchise is run on a shoestring and with profit in mind is a myth. They all need their billionaire sugar daddy prepared to shed money to enjoy his/her toy and the limelight it brings them. And - more importantly - the NBA and the other US leagues (including their behemoth sides) need them also. And so does Super League.

There’s a clue in what Hudgell is saying: “Why should I pay half a million quid each year just to tread water?” This implies to me that he wouldn’t mind spending half a million each year if it meant he had as much (but no more) chance of a GF success as the other 13 sides and it gave him the ability to match Wigan’s sports science and assistant coaches etc. I doubt he expects to make a profit and nor would he begrudge his plaything/philanthropy outlet/media vehicle costing him a few quid. He’s made his money - this is his punt, his bit of fun, his weekend hobby. But he’s spending too much on basic infrastructure that the likes of Hetherington, McManus and Lenagan never had to. It’s not sour grapes. He’s a businessman and he sniffs a poor return on his investment. So why shouldn’t he speak up? This is the point too many people are missing here and it is a very good one that rings true with most of those of us outside of the elite few clubs that have had their way for so long and with so little vocal resistance. He would have friends in the NBA and a process to follow to attempt to gain more traction. Do the Super League owners discuss these issues?

Wealthy benefactors, yes. A fair crack of the whip for all sides, also yes. We can’t have the former across the board without the latter and nor, almost certainly, can we have the latter without the former.

Hull KR without Hudgell is a huge problem for them but Super League without both an even bigger one for everyone else. It’s time for the big boys to give more back, not only for the greater good but their own benefit in the long-term, because if they’re not careful they’ll find out that their huge slice of the pie still leaves them hungry anyway as it shrinks year on year. Whereas a modest slice of a big pie for all (with extra helpings for those most in need) leaves the whole of Super League full-bellied and strong and ready to push the game into new territories.

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Hull KR without Hudgell is a huge problem for them but Super League without both an even bigger one for everyone else. It’s time for the big boys to give more back, not only for the greater good but their own benefit in the long-term, because if they’re not careful they’ll find out that their huge slice of the pie still leaves them hungry anyway as it shrinks year on year. Whereas a modest slice of a big pie for all (with extra helpings for those most in need) leaves the whole of Super League full-bellied and strong and ready to push the game into new territories.

The "huge" problem for Superleague which IS pro-Rugby League is the push into new territories has not worked and not only don't people outside the M62 want to spend on the games "infrastructure" they don't want to spend it on the teams so goodby Paris, Gateshead, Crusaders, and now probably London.

That Superleague is 14 clubs when the new territories have gone is only because M62 clubs also unviable for Superleague, have been slotted in alongside the bigger clubs to replace failed expansion clubs - HKR in Hull, Wakefield into Calder, Fartown into the Pennine area and Widnes into cheshire.

Yes they find it hard to become true SL clubs and it's obvious why when there aren't 20,000 fans and 50 professional players available to pairs of clubs.

So fine - either pare the 14 down to 12 or 10 or we drop the salary cap a few hundred grand and/or create some sort of resource sharing system.

There's two choices and one certainly doesn't "need" HKR and Hudgell, or Fulton and Castleford.

Where it will probably go IMHO is the clubs with rich men will stay in SL.

But if we are going to share resources around why not go for a truly "new territory" approach and put gateshead and Crusaders back in Superleague and keep London. Keeping two clubs in Hull is hardly a new territory approach.

Don't start the Hull bashing stuff, if your going to persevere with the "what's best for my club" self interest stuff.....

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I'm not sure of the point here. Who is to say that the big clubs would break the cap? Or would the cap be set to suit the lower teams? For example, lets say that the 'soft cap' is set at 1.1m. most teams will cut wages across the board - there is no where else for the players to go after all (for the most part). Then a Hudgell or Dr Koukash comes along and wants to buy their way up the league. Dr Koukash might be happy to do this, but seeing as hudgell seems unwilling to shell out more than 1.1m any way, would he be happy to pay the extra PLUS give leeds, wigan, hull, wire... some money in the form of a luxury cap for the priviledge?

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To be honest, until we have a system allows for a draft system, I think that comparisions with US sports that do use a draft are a bit off...

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Well it's time to agree to disagree ANO

I don't think we can work on "potential" crowds we don't think "any of them would or will" get

I prefer the reality of the figures and the figures are their for Halifax. Up to 8,000 crowds when they were winning trophies down to 1,200 when they struggled at the bottom of SL.

Maybe if Calderdale had 400,000 people like Bradford the potential would be there to top 10K.

Maybe Huddersfields population isn't enough to deliver a regular 10K crowd

What seemingly delivers crowds in reality is a combination of a large catchment area with a significant RL culture.

Maybe Halifax should start a second club in calderdale so the local rivalry will boost the crowds!!! I'm told it works.....

.

You prefer reality over potential and yet are suggesting that we should dump 5/6,000 ' real ' fans for potentially some others in the future , a slight contradiction there

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You prefer reality over potential and yet are suggesting that we should dump 5/6,000 ' real ' fans for potentially some others in the future , a slight contradiction there

What I am saying and what's not being accepted is yes it's fantastic to see 7,000 fans at Craven Park again after the early 2000's when the club was struggling in the Championship and equally fantastic to see a small town like Castleford with 7,000 fans when the population of the town is only 40,000.

I'm pretty proud of that an admiring. like you are.

But Cas are in a mess and HKR are also badly struggling, and the simple point is that this is business. Mr. Hudgell and Mr. Fulton are clear they cannot compete in a league where the wages of the top AND middle clubs are pitched at £1.65M, which these clubs cannot afford. This leads to the two strugglers having thin squads made less effective when the richer clubs then also pick off these clubs best players.

To lose seven in a row led to Cas's worse crowd for years, the HKR crowd held up for the fine win against Saints.

But it only held up at 7,000 and here's the rub. It's a loss making crowd. Mr, Hudgell lost £500,000 a year when he was competing on wages. Cas are probably not competing because they are short of the same income.

£500K is a loss of about £40,000 a match if you pay full wages. If you don't you can end up like Cas losing about 4,000 fans.

Thanks for not calling me "stupid" this time, and hopefully you will get it. I think Cas & HKR's crowds are wonderful people but they aren't enough and the fact is that if these clubs left Superleague and it benefitted their neighbours who picked up a few new fans and all the future fans then Hull and Wakefield could then go on to turn a profit.

OF COURSE I don't expect 7000 Cas fans to watch Wakefield or 7,000 KR fans to watch Hull, but some will and in future new fans in the Cas area or east hull will only have a choice of Wakefield or Hull.It's argued that fans would simply abandon the game en masse, but I personally think that IS stupid.

And although Hull may only pick up to say 13,000 fans - that's a crowd that will enable them to be a big club again, and profitable and If Wakefield pick up to 10,000 again that's a crowd that will allow them to compete with the big boys and be big boys.

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Here's a question

How and Why did Warringtons crowds grow so much to elevate them to the "10k" club in the last ten years?

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I'm not sure of the point here. Who is to say that the big clubs would break the cap? Or would the cap be set to suit the lower teams? For example, lets say that the 'soft cap' is set at 1.1m. most teams will cut wages across the board - there is no where else for the players to go after all (for the most part). Then a Hudgell or Dr Koukash comes along and wants to buy their way up the league. Dr Koukash might be happy to do this, but seeing as hudgell seems unwilling to shell out more than 1.1m any way, would he be happy to pay the extra PLUS give leeds, wigan, hull, wire... some money in the form of a luxury cap for the priviledge?

I'm not sure of the point your making here, but IMHO your never going to be able to fundamantally change the business model of SL to the point where clubs strive for income, and/or individuals put their own money in and that then gets hived off to their neighbours, or the better players are drafted to the failing clubs.

The choices in the real world are simpler and that is to cut the SL clubs down and allow more resources for the others to be available and then get an equal league. Because an unequal one doesn't work.

OR drop the cap to the lowest common denominator which seems to be £1.1M and take the rough with the smooth. There is an argument here that fans would not walk away and nor would most players if players got paid less although SOME players would. How many and to what effect is the big question.

I take issue with Keenie's ideas of resource sharing because we discussed mergers some time ago when he felt that it would be beneficial for a merger in the Calder area. Those vehemenently against it demanded of him that he accept Hull and HKR merge if that was the solution. Now HKR are struggling, it's resource sharing that's the solution and that's fine I don't mind an honest shift of position.

But if we are to share resources and drag down the top clubs then it makes no sense to do this with an all M62 league. The idea opens the chance (OK I believe it's little or fat chance) that the Leeds, Wigans, Wire's etc can prop up competitive teams in Wales, London and the north east.

Whatever way you cut the cake it will always remain that clubs sat next to each other chasing the same resources doesn't do anything to create new resources, and who wants to aspire to play a regional game and who wants to sponsor it.

Propping up the failing businesses in Superleague really has no merits and really will not bring about any growth in the profitability of the game IMHO of course

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Here's a question

How and Why did Warringtons crowds grow so much to elevate them to the "10k" club in the last ten years?

I don't exactly know and would welcome Wire fans views, but in the early SL years they were at 5000 fans and the new stadium led to a boost to the crowds with the modern facilities, then Morans financial support and ability to attract the games stars also saw the crowd climb, local rivals Widnes were out of the picture and Wire had a good catchment area of fans to go at.

Give Cas a new stadium, a rich owner and shove Fev and Wakefield out of the picture and I'd guess they could hit 12,000 crowds.

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"But if we are to share resources and drag down the top clubs then it makes no sense to do this with an all M62 league. The idea opens the chance (OK I believe it's little or fat chance) that the Leeds, Wigans, Wire's etc can prop up competitive teams in Wales, London and the north east."

Sorry I can't seem to only edit to part of your quote Parksider. And here is the question. Whilst I think Wigan, Leeds, Wire etc fans will accept propping up expansion clubs, the fans will not be happy propping up clubs which are more local and possibly their rivals. Hull FC fans won't be happy thinking some of the money they've paid for tickets is going to HKR, Wire fans won't be happy thinking some of their money is paying Widnes players, and likewise for the rest.

 

The solutions being offered from some of the smaller clubs seem to indicate show they think the 'big' clubs crowds won't be affected. I think they will. Then you're getting in to a situation where all the clubs are in to a money losing spiral. 

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Give Cas a new stadium, a rich owner and shove Fev and Wakefield out of the picture and I'd guess they could hit 12,000 crowds.

Thought you like to deal in facts? There is nothing to back this statement up? Cas have never been near to achieving that type of crowds apart from one offs against Wakey and Leeds.

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Whatever way you cut the cake it will always remain that clubs sat next to each other chasing the same resources doesn't do anything to create new resources, and who wants to aspire to play a regional game and who wants to sponsor it.

 

  A bit like Bradford and Leeds you mean?

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