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RoytonRoughyed

Minimum Standards

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My big question I guess is why do we need promotion and relegation?

 

Why cant a club be content with competing in the competition they are in?

 

What is wrong with Halifax creating a dynasty in the Championship and competing in four successive GF's?

 

In the case of Championship clubs, if there is evidence of demand, finances and player strength for another club in SL then those clubs can then apply to join the competition when that opportunity arises.

 

Too many professional clubs aiming for the stars is what is killing the game.

I agree, but a club cannot be "content" it's the fans that have to be content.

And they are not.

This short reply is dedicated to Hindle X111.

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the same way that other sports quantify demand for a new club.

 

A high population base

 

If an area or existing club has high levels of RL viewership

 

Evidence of well supported sports locally

 

A location where the club will not directly impact on the support of an existing SL club or may be dwarfed by an existing SL club

 

A new venue have perhaps had a match taken to them on the road with promising results,

 

An existing club can display their ability for strong community engagement

 

An existing local junior and youth structure

 

Support and financial backing from the local government

 

The finances available to run a full academy set up

 

That is simply a few from ways a newly accepted club could quantify.

 

The RFL and SLE would need to have the reserve to supplement the club over 5 - 10 years to ensure the club is successful. Unfortunately the RFL is not in a position to promote its own competition effectively, so is not in a position to do this

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My big question I guess is why do we need promotion and relegation?

Why cant a club (and I mean all up the divisions) be content with competing in the competition they are in?

What is wrong with Halifax creating a dynasty in the Championship and competing in four successive GF's?

In the case of Championship clubs, if there is evidence of demand, finances and player strength for another club in SL then those clubs can then apply to join the competition when that opportunity arises.

Too many professional clubs aiming for the stars is what is killing the game.

As Parky said, fans want their clubs to have the chance to play on a bigger stage - by earning the right on the pitch. Its called sport in the UK.

I wont watch a no mark league with no hope and 95% of fans of pro clubs outside SK wont either. Also fans in those towns frozen out will give up subs on sky and premier (I already have in anger)

Ask yourself this question - would your idea work in football, and would you be happy to publicly promote the concept to the likes of Leeds Utd, Sheff Wed, Millwall etc fans? Its just the same for us but on a snaller scale.

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So he suggests cutting the top level combined salary cap by £5m and says use the extra money to sign players back. Erm. what extra money?

 

Players won't rush back from Union or the NRL to play 2nd tier.

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As Parky said, fans want their clubs to have the chance to play on a bigger stage - by earning the right on the pitch. Its called sport in the UK.

I wont watch a no mark league with no hope and 95% of fans of pro clubs outside SK wont either. Also fans in those towns frozen out will give up subs on sky and premier (I already have in anger)

Ask yourself this question - would your idea work in football, and would you be happy to publicly promote the concept to the likes of Leeds Utd, Sheff Wed, Millwall etc fans? Its just the same for us but on a snaller scale.

It doesn't have to work in football as they are not in the position of only having 14 professional clubs.

One of, if not the main, reasons why licensing was brought in was to end the yo-yo syndrome, which we had with the promoted club going straight down again as it couldn't compete. You, more than many others, should remember that. It simply wasn't fair on the promoted club - and licensing does, at least, give the promoted club three seasons to get its act together. Until we can come up with a P&R system which protects the last promoted club from immediate relegation, whilst still being 'fair' to the other clubs hanging around the bottom, P&R is history. Those two principles seem mutually incompatible to me.

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About a year ago, our Hornets blog ran an article on restructuring Rugby League including P&R.

 

We went with:

 

 

"Minimum standards for promotion to Super League.

 

Automatic promotion and relegation between the club that finishes bottom of Super League and the club that wins the Championship. Promotion and relegation would, however, be subject to the Minimum Standards criteria which require certain standards to be met across all areas of a professional club's business.

 

Clubs wishing to play in Super League would have to fulfil a list of criteria to be determined by the RFL and agreed by Championship clubs. This 'minimum standards plan' might cover areas including stadium specification &  ground tenure, club administration and key roles, financial status & business/budget plan for playing at a higher level, community development programmes, medical & safety, marketing, plans to increase attendances, plans for adherence to the salary cap and playing/contractual commitments. The purpose of the minimum criteria would be an attempt to ensure a base level of on- and off-field standards for all clubs to operate by.

 

Clubs wishing to play in Super League would be asked to submit their minimum standards plan to the RFL by a predetermined deadline. If their plan meets the standards, the club would be granted a 'promotion licence' that would remain valid for three years. Their submission would then be reviewed when/if a club finishes top of the Championship, to validate that the standards remain in place. 

 

Clubs could review/up-grade/amend their plans at any time during that licence period, but the revised plan would replace its predecessor only for the remainder of the licence period. Clubs which did not submit a minimum standards plan at the outset would not be permitted to submit one during an existing licence period, but could do when submissions were invited for the next period."

 

 

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We went with:

 

Automatic promotion and relegation between the club that finishes bottom of Super League and the club that wins the Championship. Promotion and relegation would, however, be subject to the Minimum Standards criteria.

I reckon it'd have gone like this if it had been put in a few years ago......

2009 celtic C. down (and out) Barrow denied

2010 catalans down Fev up

2011 Fev down catalans up

2012 wakefield down and sheffield denied.

Looks like in reality it'd be a pigs ear. Expansion clubs would be hard hit, promoted clubs would not get time to be established and go straight back down (widnes this year), and clubs would be denied on standards so the status quo would remain. Not very exciting...

In practice it doesn't work IMHO.

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I reckon it'd have gone like this if it had been put in a few years ago......

2009 celtic C. down (and out) Barrow denied

2010 catalans down Fev up

2011 Fev down catalans up

2012 wakefield down and sheffield denied.

Looks like in reality it'd be a pigs ear. Expansion clubs would be hard hit, promoted clubs would not get time to be established and go straight back down (widnes this year), and clubs would be denied on standards so the status quo would remain. Not very exciting...

In practice it doesn't work IMHO.

What makes you think Catalan would have finished bottom?

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It doesn't have to work in football as they are not in the position of only having 14 professional clubs.

One of, if not the main, reasons why licensing was brought in was to end the yo-yo syndrome, which we had with the promoted club going straight down again as it couldn't compete. You, more than many others, should remember that. It simply wasn't fair on the promoted club - and licensing does, at least, give the promoted club three seasons to get its act together. Until we can come up with a P&R system which protects the last promoted club from immediate relegation, whilst still being 'fair' to the other clubs hanging around the bottom, P&R is history. Those two principles seem mutually incompatible to me.

 

P and r in the SL era promoted Wakefield, Hull KR, Huddersfield, Castleford and Leigh. Only Leigh are not currently in SL. How do you come uo with this yo yo fantasy?

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P and r in the SL era promoted Wakefield, Hull KR, Huddersfield, Castleford and Leigh. Only Leigh are not currently in SL. How do you come uo with this yo yo fantasy?

Didn't Hull Sharks get promoted as well?

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P and r in the SL era promoted Wakefield, Hull KR, Huddersfield, Castleford and Leigh. Only Leigh are not currently in SL. How do you come uo with this yo yo fantasy?

I love this all the stick the RFL and Huddersfield used to get when they were avoiding relegation. Now they're being used in an argument to show how P and R works.

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So they can throw the kitchen sink at staying in the division and that would be ok?

It isn't a division it's a separate competition

But throwing the financial kitchen sink is never good as those who did it being promoted and relegated year on year found out to their long term cost

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What makes you think Catalan would have finished bottom?

The fact that they did actually finish bottom.

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P and r in the SL era promoted Wakefield, Hull KR, Huddersfield, Castleford and Leigh. Only Leigh are not currently in SL. How do you come uo with this yo yo fantasy?

And Hull.

1996 was a snapshot. there were some small clubs who made SL and some bigger clubs that did not. Rich men had not yet come along and chosen or rejected their clubs

The small clubs got relegated never to return and the big clubs eventually made their way into Superleague and stayed there.

Now it's a more stagnant situation.

I really see what you did there to try to contrive an argument that there'll still be plenty of variety each year in who goes up and down.

Why do you do this? Arguing everything will be OK won't make it OK.

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The fact that they did actually finish bottom.

They did. My mistake. Fax won it in 2010 by the way. But doesn't make any difference to the point you were making.

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And Hull.

1996 was a snapshot. there were some small clubs who made SL and some bigger clubs that did not. Rich men had not yet come along and chosen or rejected their clubs

The small clubs got relegated never to return and the big clubs eventually made their way into Superleague and stayed there.

Now it's a more stagnant situation.

I really see what you did there to try to contrive an argument that there'll still be plenty of variety each year in who goes up and down.

Why do you do this? Arguing everything will be OK won't make it OK.

 

They never returned because p and r was abolished. Salford and London and Crusaders and Paris and Gateshead were all appointed to SL. How.s that working out.?  If the process is not in place, neither you nor I nor anyone can know if it would continue to work, as it clearly did, or not.

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I reckon it'd have gone like this if it had been put in a few years ago......

2009 celtic C. down (and out) Barrow denied

2010 catalans down Fev up

2011 Fev down catalans up

2012 wakefield down and sheffield denied.

Looks like in reality it'd be a pigs ear. Expansion clubs would be hard hit, promoted clubs would not get time to be established and go straight back down (widnes this year), and clubs would be denied on standards so the status quo would remain. Not very exciting...

In practice it doesn't work IMHO.

Les Cats would be exempt. Als, why would Barrow and Sheffied have been denied? They have better grounds than Wakey

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Les Cats would be exempt. Als, why would Barrow and Sheffied have been denied? They have better grounds than Wakey

So if we are to exempt sides in SL and reject sides in CC on standards then how will P & R "work".

If your skint club finds half a million to build a winning team, when they lift the grand final trophy they had better enjoy it because they'll be rejected on the finances standard won't they.

Then whoever's had an awful season in SL will get a reprieve.

You know why Barrow would not have been promoted - remember Mr. Johnston.

What crowd does sheffield have? What money?

It's just a load of rubbish.

P & R with minimum standards is just licensing.

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1. They never returned because p and r was abolished.

2. If the the process is not in place, neither you nor I nor anyone can know if it would continue to work, as it clearly did, or not.

1. You'd better check the history books again Mr. Wishful thinking. The likes of halifax collapsed in SL, Workington spiralled downwards as did Oldham etc etc. They never returned because trying to be professional clubs destroyed them.

I know Halifax won the 2010 grand final, I also know they had no money for SL as the license commitee had found out. but in the world of wishful thinking maybe they'd have squeezed in at 13th. place on promotion?

"You and I will never know"

2. Which is a truly daft argument because you can see how P & R with minimum standards worked in the years after 1996. Hunslet won promotion and were denied. This killed off the club.

For goodness sake.....

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So if we are to exempt sides in SL and reject sides in CC on standards then how will P & R "work".

If your skint club finds half a million to build a winning team, when they lift the grand final trophy they had better enjoy it because they'll be rejected on the finances standard won't they.

Then whoever's had an awful season in SL will get a reprieve.

You know why Barrow would not have been promoted - remember Mr. Johnston.

What crowd does sheffield have? What money?

It's just a load of rubbish.

P & R with minimum standards is just licensing.

 

P and r with minimum standards is very definetly NOT just licencing.

 

Under licencing you could have met minimum standards and still not be given a licence.

 

Under p and r with minimum standards, if you meet them, AND win the league, then promotion will be guaranteed.

 

Under licencing you could meet minimum standards, NOT win the league, and still get a licence. Widnes for example

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P and r with minimum standards is very definetly NOT just licencing.

 

Under licencing you could have met minimum standards and still not be given a licence.

 

Under p and r with minimum standards, if you meet them, AND win the league, then promotion will be guaranteed.

 

Under licencing you could meet minimum standards, NOT win the league, and still get a licence. Widnes for example

Nobody met mimimum standards and failed to get a license get real, P & R with min standards gives clubs TWO hurdles to jump to get promoted and as far as 3. is concerned a club could be all geared up to do OK in SL as Widnes were and be denied a place because someone like Sheffield may have snatched the grand final away.

I'm astounded that people want P & R then proceed to put barriers in the way of clubs getting Peed and barriers in the way of them getting arred.

It's a pigs ear it will be as silly as it was when we had the system. Short memories......

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1. You'd better check the history books again Mr. Wishful thinking. The likes of halifax collapsed in SL, Workington spiralled downwards as did Oldham etc etc. They never returned because trying to be professional clubs destroyed them.

I know Halifax won the 2010 grand final, I also know they had no money for SL as the license commitee had found out. but in the world of wishful thinking maybe they'd have squeezed in at 13th. place on promotion?

"You and I will never know"

2. Which is a truly daft argument because you can see how P & R with minimum standards worked in the years after 1996. Hunslet won promotion and were denied. This killed off the club.

For goodness sake.....

 

No, wrong again. They never returned for two reasons. The first is because p and r was abolished and so they could not return. The second is that they never won the league to be in a position to be promoted even if p and r was in place. If  p and r was in place and any of those clubs won their league, then they would have returned to SL ( subject probably to minimum standards criteria)

 

Halifax were not promoted because there was no p and r and even if there was, as you intimate, they may well have failed the minimum standards test which is proposed for both the p and r and the licencing methods of accessing SL.

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