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gingerjon

Farage poles the electorate

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Hmmmm.... there is , in my opinion and experience, at least a slight difference between what one may term  left and right in the UK and left and right in mainland Europe. 

 

France is clearly socialist at present, though even under the right wing of Sarkozy, France was still very much to the left of New Labour in terms of the way the public sector worked, the power of the unions in health, transport etc

 

My idea of the right is of rolling back the state, reducing taxes but this does not seem to figure in say Germany. 

 

Clearly the "EU" isn't entirely socialist as it is pushing privatization very hard. It is though , a bit like the old USSR in that it is crippled by bureaucracy seemingly as a way of creating employment rather than trying to devolve as much as possible to the nation states. I was in Leningrad in 1975 and believe me, the paralysis by bureaucracy was to die for!!

 

The EU does not 'devolve' to its member states. The power relationship is the other way around: the EU gets its powers from its member states. That is fairly basic stuff.

And remember what Radek Sikorski, Foreign Minister of Poland, and self-described as a Thatcherite free-marketeer, said about EU bureaucracy? 

"Myth No 4 The UK is drowning in EU bureaucracy.

Fact Yes, 33,000 people work for the European Commission, serving an entire continent. But more than 82,000 people work for HM Revenue & Customs alone. Spain has almost three million bureaucrats. In contrast to any of its members, the EU is a slimmed-down operation."

And about EU "socialism"?

Myth No 6 The European Commission is a hotbed of socialism.

"Fact Whether on Open Skies or business subsidies, the EU has helped to dismantle national monopolies and stopped national politicians subverting competition rules."

To say nothing about the single market; that's a fairly basic "libertarian" idea, surely?

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I liked this bit:-

"Geoffrey Clarke's personal manifesto, which also called gay marriage an 'abhorrence', fueled concern about Ukip's extreme wing..."

UKIP's extreme wing, eh?  :lol:

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Compulsory abortion? Aye, libertarian!

 

UKIP are not libertarian.  No matter how much Guido and Farage might like the word.  They might be anti authorities they don't like but they are fetishistically controlling when it comes to loose morals.

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I'm sorry. I'll write that again.  Scotland will find out for itself when it applies to join the EU and the €  post- devolution.  I meant  subsidiarity

 

The rest of Methven's post seems to answer questions I did not ask.

 

Still, I'm off to Strasbourg in late May and will meet up with the wife's cousin who has worked for the Council Of Europe for may years.I'll take her word.

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UKIP are not libertarian.  No matter how much Guido and Farage might like the word.  They might be anti authorities they don't like but they are fetishistically controlling when it comes to loose morals.

Most libertarians seem to fall into that trap in the end.

It's a juvenile ideology which appeals mainly to teenagers and fools and which offers no solutions whatsoever to the real World IMO.

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Funny how the establishment parties are now all bonding together against UKIP.

 

They are treating Ukip as a serious party worthy of being taken on.  You'd expect that given that they're running at 13% in the poll of polls at the moment.

 

It says a lot about Ukip's calibre that they regard this as a witch-hunt.

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 i would rather have Farage as PM anyday than lefty idiots like Cameroon Millaband and that champagne socialist creep Ed Balls 

CM

 

You've clearly never met him then.

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Well UKIP certainly appeals to those from all walks of life we were discussing them in the british pub in Barcelona the other night and my personal opinion is they will flatten the established parties at the next EU election.

Its near impossible for a party becoming this popular so quickly to vet all they simply dont have the back up,and as for Cameroon/Clarke etc calling them fruits would i would rather have Farage as PM anyday than lefty idiots like Cameroon Millaband and that champagne socialist creep Ed Balls up and his miserable wife:((((

CM

 

 

You seriously think Cameron and Miliband are "lefties"?

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gosh, even I wouldn't claim that!!    :lol:

 

I think ukip may split the  vote at the local elections, take quite a few rural Tory votes and some "old" Labour votes in inner city areas north and south. However, no one seriously  believes that UKIP have enough supporters ( or policies) to win a single Parliamentary seat . The have even less credibility than the SNP!

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 They have even less credibility than the SNP!

 

 

I don't know whether you've noticed that the SNP are actually in overall power in Scotland.

 

I think UKIP would be happy to settle for the same status in England.

:)

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Its near impossible for a party becoming this popular so quickly to vet all they simply dont have the back up,and as for Cameroon/Clarke etc calling them fruits would i would rather have Farage as PM anyday than lefty idiots ...

CM

The calibre of candidates selected seems to me to be a great indicator of the true nature of the party and the sort of pond life they attract. How many candidates have they had to deselect now?

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Some good stuff on this thread. JohnM's off to quiz someone from the Council of Europe about the EU and Canetman thinks we're letting 'the Roma' in on 1st January.

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The calibre of candidates selected seems to me to be a great indicator of the true nature of the party and the sort of pond life they attract. How many candidates have they had to deselect now?

We must be into double figures.

And the majority seem to have been undone not by things that might have been awkward to find out - past membership of the BNP - but by obvious things like *what they have said in public about what they think*.

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Some good stuff on this thread. JohnM's off to quiz someone from the Council of Europe about the EU and Canetman thinks we're letting 'the Roma' in on 1st January.

 

 

My wife is Roma they're here already!!! Run Canetman!!! Run for the hills!!!!!!

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I'm sorry. I'll write that again.  Scotland will find out for itself when it applies to join the EU and the €  post- devolution.  I meant  subsidiarity

 

The rest of Methven's post seems to answer questions I did not ask.

 

Still, I'm off to Strasbourg in late May and will meet up with the wife's cousin who has worked for the Council Of Europe for may years.I'll take her word.

 

I'm sorry. I'll write that again.  Scotland will find out for itself when it applies to join the EU and the €  post- devolution.  I meant  subsidiarity

 

Correction accepted, but they are very different creatures: subsidiarity, and the powers it involves, being in the control of the member states; devolution would be the EU dictating what the member states can be responsible for.

 

The rest of Methven's post seems to answer questions I did not ask.

 

You didn't ask any questions, but you did come up with a couple of common errors - understandable given that they are constantly pushed by the Europhobic parts of the press, but errors nonetheless. That is that the EU is in any way socialist or that it is overly bureaucratic. It is, and has been, dominated by the centre-right for years now, at Council, Commission and Parliament level. And, as your fellow Thatcherite, the Polish Foreign Minister, points out, the EU bureaucracy contains fewer than half the officials the UK's HMRC. 

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I think ukip may split the  vote at the local elections, take quite a few rural Tory votes and some "old" Labour votes in inner city areas north and south. However, no one seriously  believes that UKIP have enough supporters ( or policies) to win a single Parliamentary seat . The have even less credibility than the SNP!

 

UKIP will split the vote, but the Tories are banking on capturing the centre, anti-Labour vote at the next election - and, of course, taking back the hard right defectors to UKIP, who will fear the return of a Labour government. I doubt the Tories are that concerned by council results at this stage as long as they retain power at the centre.

UKIP will come nowhere near gaining a Westminster seat - it is too extreme for that.

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Does anyone on here actually have a vote on Thursday? There are no elections taking place in my neck of the woods.

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UKIP will split the vote, but the Tories are banking on capturing the centre, anti-Labour vote at the next election - and, of course, taking back the hard right defectors to UKIP, who will fear the return of a Labour government. I doubt the Tories are that concerned by council results at this stage as long as they retain power at the centre.

UKIP will come nowhere near gaining a Westminster seat - it is too extreme for that.

  

 

Conservative chances of success in local elections vastly increased as Tebbit promote UKIP: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2317305/Tebbit-tells-voters-UKIP-means-stopping-Labour-But-Farage-forced-foot-candidates-Nazi-salute.html

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I'm sorry. I'll write that again.  Scotland will find out for itself when it applies to join the EU and the €  post- devolution.  I meant  subsidiarity

 

Correction accepted, but they are very different creatures: subsidiarity, and the powers it involves, being in the control of the member states; devolution would be the EU dictating what the member states can be responsible for.

 

The rest of Methven's post seems to answer questions I did not ask.

 

You didn't ask any questions, but you did come up with a couple of common errors - understandable given that they are constantly pushed by the Europhobic parts of the press, but errors nonetheless. That is that the EU is in any way socialist or that it is overly bureaucratic. It is, and has been, dominated by the centre-right for years now, at Council, Commission and Parliament level. And, as your fellow Thatcherite, the Polish Foreign Minister, points out, the EU bureaucracy contains fewer than half the officials the UK's HMRC. 

 

 

Its great to be a Thatcherite. She kept us in Europe.

 

in any case you don't need to automatically misrepresent and take issue with everything I post. You and I agree on many issues.

 

For example,  we both support Scottish Independence and we both support EU membership.

 

Anyway, no errors. Can you point me to where I wrote that the EU is socialist?  I did point out that France is undoubtedly a socialist country but made no such claim about the EU. Equally,  by most measures, Germany is hardly right wing.

 

As for EU bureaucracy, yes, it accounts for around "just" 40,000 staff but its as you well know, not a numbers game. Eurocrats don't do anything like the same job as R and C staff. R and C staff deal with the minutiae of collecting revenue and tax.  Those in the European  Parliament deal with things like spending 180,000,000 € a year to move the whole thing between Brussels and Strasbourg once a month.

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Does anyone on here actually have a vote on Thursday? There are no elections taking place in my neck of the woods.

 

I do indeed.  Bucks County Council is up every four years.

 

The ward has changed slightly since 2009 but broadly back then the Tories got 57%, Lib Dems got 20%, Ukip 15%, Labour & independents the rest.  Turnout was 44%.  We have candidates from the Tories, Lib Dems, Ukip and Labour this time round.  It would take a massive stay-at-home or swing from the Tories to Ukip to make much of a difference here.

 

Across Bucks as a whole last time the Tories won 46 seats, Lib Dems 11, everyone else 0.  The Tories got just shy of 50% of the vote, Lib Dems 29%, Ukip 14% (40% turnout).  County-wide there could be places where a Tory 'protest' vote to Ukip might have an impact but only if the Lib Dem vote turns out (which I suspect it won't) or in the odd places where Labour has an outside chance.

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