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Larry the Leit

Marwan Koukash - Set to ignore the salary cap!

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Since the cap went live, no-one has been caught, which in itself I find baffling.

 

Wasn't the issue with the old salary cap was that it was based on a percentage of turnover which could be open to interpretation?

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Maybe I'm a bit naive, but I read what he said as an attempt to goad the RFL into some form of action over the salary cap.

Read post #89 neither of you are naive.

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Prefer to call it Tap-20.

Good work

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Sorry of this has already been mentioned, but surely, with the live cap now in place, it's not possible to break the salary cap anyway? Players just won't be registered.

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I think he's making noises about the cap for the reasons I posted earlier, he wants it policing properly (though I do think they try hard as it is) or changing, his preference being keep it and change it/police it better.

 

He's no bloody fool, he know's what he's saying and isn't mouthing off for the hell of it.

Also read this above Red John.

I've long since given up taking press releases seriously, and certainly don't take them at face value.

The messages are always half hidden and I don't think he's either trying to get rid of the cap so he can lead Rugby League to the stars and back with an army of new investors, nor is he intending to break all the rules because he can't get his own way.

I'll go for the middle ground where he has threatened to utlise underhand practices to spend more if other clubs are allowed to get away with it. It raises a headline and raises the profile of his club and will hopefully get the lapsed Salford fans behind the club in this "It's me and Salford against the RL world" type of marketing.

As for the idea that scrap the cap and Fred and Albert Koukash will come in and take a club each and spend millions too is not exactly in line with reality.

The record is that nobody rich wanted Bradford.

The record is that nobody rich wanted Wakefield.

The rich man at HKR doesn't want to know nor does anyone else

The rich man at Cas doesn't want to know nor does anyone else

The rich man at Widnes doesn't want to know nor does anyone else

That's five clubs who can't manage the salary cap as it is!

Koukash knows that for him success is to replace one of the three top dogs. If the top dogs ARE getting away with things then he needs to act and has acted.

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The record is that nobody rich wanted Bradford.

The record is that nobody rich wanted Wakefield.

The rich man at HKR doesn't want to know nor does anyone else

The rich man at Cas doesn't want to know nor does anyone else

The rich man at Widnes doesn't want to know nor does anyone else

There's rich men and then there are rich men.

These rich might probably aren't rich enough, where as Dr Koukash probably is. Wakey and Bulls merely have wealthy men.

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The topic , as usual has gone the way of most recent posts about Salford & Marwan Koukash-  Doubters who think he is skint , & Haters with short memories .

 

I'm not so stupid as to argue against claims  Koukash is sometimes ill educated in the ' craft of SL manners ' or not hyprotical , yes he is pursuing a cap increase for Salford's/ his interest .  

 

We had a well mannered Chairman who guided the club for over 30 yrs , never upset anyone mainly because he never had the Players Or capital to really contest. but ultimately he left us a devastated club owing millions by playing fair ...

Now we have a not so well mannered Chairman for 12 weeks , who is upsetting everyone , because he has capital and wants to use it for players to contest, and he he might not play fair ..

 

ask me which one I prefer , and say that those 3 quotes above  aren't patently true.

 

Excellent post Middleman.  btw - the Darren Brown image is better than yours on our Board :lol: :lol:

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Since the cap went live, no-one has been caught, which in itself I find baffling

Not really, the cap is easy to circumvent: Sponsor, brings top talent from overseas for which he'll pay the bloke 250k per annum to act as a rep for his firm - player takes up a £500 per week job at a SL club [just to keep up his fitness]. The RFL don't have any right to check a sponsor's bank account [and probably don't even know who the sponsor is] so, much as they might well suspect something is a tad fishy, what can they do about it? As long as the overseas bloke sticks to his visa conditions about working he's laughing.

 

BTW, I don't actually think anything like that is going on, and I truthfully believe the clubs are being generally honest, but it would be possible, even if the number of people in the know [like all the other reps who never see said overseas chap in the office] might well start murmering out loud..

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Personally if I was a Salford fan I'd be worried about Koukash's comments about needing to win. It smacks to me of complete impatience and the words of someone who isn't in it for the long haul or to build something - its more of a gloryhunter mentality. There's a chance that in a year or two when he still hasn't won anything and crowds are still low then he'll get bored and clear off.

As for the salary cap, well obviously Marwan doesn't like it but those who think he should get his own way should think very carefully about what they're advocating. The benfactors at other clubs are getting fed up now at struggling to compete with the big clubs despite pouring money in, if you give the big clubs a bigger cap then the smaller clubs' position becomes even worse and you might just find some of those benefactors walk away and give up on an impossible task. You might appease one man and lose 5 or 6 other key people from the game in the process. Is that progress ? If the likes of Hudgell, O'Connor, Fulton, Hughes etc think its becoming a waste of time and money now then leaving them lagging further behind might just be the tipping point that drives them away completely.

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Not really, the cap is easy to circumvent: Sponsor, brings top talent from overseas for which he'll pay the bloke 250k per annum to act as a rep for his firm - player takes up a £500 per week job at a SL club [just to keep up his fitness]. The RFL don't have any right to check a sponsor's bank account [and probably don't even know who the sponsor is] so, much as they might well suspect something is a tad fishy, what can they do about it? As long as the overseas bloke sticks to his visa conditions about working he's laughing.

 

BTW, I don't actually think anything like that is going on, and I truthfully believe the clubs are being generally honest, but it would be possible, even if the number of people in the know [like all the other reps who never see said overseas chap in the office] might well start murmering out loud..

 

I think that the clubs cant risk behaving in this manner. Imagine a club adopting this policy and then the player in a few years time falling out with the club for one reason or another. That player then has ammunition to tell the authorities of his circumstances.

 

There is no way a club would go about adopting these policies. The cap is there and the clubs are forced to abide by it or face the very likelihood that they will be caught and punished.

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Personally if I was a Salford fan I'd be worried about Koukash's comments about needing to win. It smacks to me of complete impatience and the words of someone who isn't in it for the long haul or to build something - its more of a gloryhunter mentality. There's a chance that in a year or two when he still hasn't won anything and crowds are still low then he'll get bored and clear off.

As for the salary cap, well obviously Marwan doesn't like it but those who think he should get his own way should think very carefully about what they're advocating. The benfactors at other clubs are getting fed up now at struggling to compete with the big clubs despite pouring money in, if you give the big clubs a bigger cap then the smaller clubs' position becomes even worse and you might just find some of those benefactors walk away and give up on an impossible task. You might appease one man and lose 5 or 6 other key people from the game in the process. Is that progress ? If the likes of Hudgell, O'Connor, Fulton, Hughes etc think its becoming a waste of time and money now then leaving them lagging further behind might just be the tipping point that drives them away completely.

 

I agree. Other sports with have alternate ways to narrow the competition like a draft system as well as a cap. Unfortunately an increase at the moment will not increase the competitiveness of clubs but widen it the gap

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Personally if I was a Salford fan I'd be worried about Koukash's comments about needing to win. It smacks to me of complete impatience and the words of someone who isn't in it for the long haul or to build something - its more of a gloryhunter mentality. There's a chance that in a year or two when he still hasn't won anything and crowds are still low then he'll get bored and clear off.

As for the salary cap, well obviously Marwan doesn't like it but those who think he should get his own way should think very carefully about what they're advocating. The benfactors at other clubs are getting fed up now at struggling to compete with the big clubs despite pouring money in, if you give the big clubs a bigger cap then the smaller clubs' position becomes even worse and you might just find some of those benefactors walk away and give up on an impossible task. You might appease one man and lose 5 or 6 other key people from the game in the process. Is that progress ? If the likes of Hudgell, O'Connor, Fulton, Hughes etc think its becoming a waste of time and money now then leaving them lagging further behind might just be the tipping point that drives them away completely.

And I agree entirely, we have the beginnings of a clique.

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 The benfactors at other clubs are getting fed up now at struggling to compete with the big clubs despite pouring money in, if you give the big clubs a bigger cap then the smaller clubs' position becomes even worse and you might just find some of those benefactors walk away and give up on an impossible task. You might appease one man and lose 5 or 6 other key people from the game in the process. Is that progress ? If the likes of Hudgell, O'Connor, Fulton, Hughes etc think its becoming a waste of time and money now then leaving them lagging further behind might just be the tipping point that drives them away completely.

 

Isn't this happening already ?

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He needs the increase to fit Sonny Bill Willaims and Michael Dobson in his side. You heard it hear first!

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Seems the Dr has had some secret meetings with a couple of other SL owners i think.

CM

it's no secret that he is a good friend of eamon mcanus

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Isn't this happening already ?

No.

What's happening IMHO is some club chairmen are stopping spending but not walking away yet.

If what will happen is a 10 club Superleague THEN the chairmen of the clubs who won't get in may very well walk away.

If something happened like 16 club SL salary cap £1,200,000 then they may all stay.

The future structure of the pro game is well up in the air and so you cannot blame businessmen for suspending investment when they do not know under what conditions they will be investing under.

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I'm sitting on the fence a little with the good Doctor.

 

He is great to have at Salford, and as others have said he is looking at what makes the fans happy, including the parking at Barton. He will restructure the whole company.

 

This week he won the Chester cup, and the BBC described him as the owner of Salford City Reds, not something we have seen before.

 

Long term he will be good for the game, but he needs to learn how to deal with the press.

 

He has already talked about the facilities at Barton adn improving them, all of this is long term ambitions.

 

We need the cap increasing to pay off the poor signings and sign a better player or 2.

 

I think we all believe that clubs have methods of beating the cap including the deal Sculthorpe had where personal sponsorship doesn't count.

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I like him as well.

This is why a revision of the 1995 model will work. Other investors will happily buy a "super club" and fund an increased cap (and possibly start-up costs if needed), TV will also like it and after much huffing and puffing on here the vast majority of fans will realise it will be great and will pack our stadiums to watch NRL-type rugby league.

Dr K would then I hope be happy, although whether he has enough "socialist millionaire" spirit about him I'm not sure. But I would hope that owning one of an elite 12 or so clubs - all of whom pay big bucks, have marquee players etc. and thus meaning his club could just as easily finish top as bottom - in a better, more cash-rich competition would be enough for him. I do slightly worry that he has more of a Man Utd "blast the competition in a free market stylee" vibe about him. But we'll see.

For sure, the game is better with him than without him.

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I like him as well.

This is why a revision of the 1995 model will work. Other investors will happily buy a "super club" and fund an increased cap (and possibly start-up costs if needed), TV will also like it and after much huffing and puffing on here the vast majority of fans will realise it will be great and will pack our stadiums to watch NRL-type rugby league.

Dr K would then I hope be happy, although whether he has enough "socialist millionaire" spirit about him I'm not sure. But I would hope that owning one of an elite 12 or so clubs - all of whom pay big bucks, have marquee players etc. and thus meaning his club could just as easily finish top as bottom - in a better, more cash-rich competition would be enough for him. I do slightly worry that he has more of a Man Utd "blast the competition in a free market stylee" vibe about him. But we'll see.

For sure, the game is better with him than without him.

I like your positive thinking post.

However not sure why you believe ""Other investors will happily buy a "super club" and fund an increased cap (and possibly start-up costs if needed)""

also not sure about "an elite 12 or so clubs - all of whom pay big bucks, have marquee players"......

Nobody jumped in to lavish big bucks on the biggest club in SL 1995 to 2005

And who are all these "marquee" players and where are they coming from?

Is your idea that a series of mega rich investors will come over the hill buy up the elite clubs and outbid Union and NRL for players by so much they all come to League???

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And who are all these "marquee" players and where are they coming from?

 

 

You're right, there's only one Kevin Brown.  We can't split him 12 ways.

 

You make a good point, one thing that seems to almost always be missed is that if you have a league of 12 you still have 11 losers at the end of the year.  Not every club can be a glittering success every year.  If we go to 12, how long before we hear the call for 10 or 8?

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You make a good point, one thing that seems to almost always be missed is that if you have a league of 12 you still have 11 losers at the end of the year.  Not every club can be a glittering success every year.  If we go to 12, how long before we hear the call for 10 or 8?

Sorry Larry but IMHO and with respect you make a bad point.

If the NRL run at 16 clubs you still have 15 losers and how long before that becomes 12, 10, 8 etc.

It's not having just 14 clubs that would do for Superleague, it's having 14 clubs of which only half can win the SL grand final or win the Challenge cup, and another half who have no money, can't develop adequate players and who can't attract the fans because they know full well their clubs are going nowhere.

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Sorry Larry but IMHO and with respect you make a bad point.

If the NRL run at 16 clubs you still have 15 losers and how long before that becomes 12, 10, 8 etc.

It's not having just 14 clubs that would do for Superleague, it's having 14 clubs of which only half can win the SL grand final or win the Challenge cup, and another half who have no money, can't develop adequate players and who can't attract the fans because they know full well their clubs are going nowhere.

 

Don't apologise for disagreeing.  The NRL is a fine and stable structure, Aussies are used to having just the top tier detached from the rest, we on the other hand are not, and for us to accept the NRL structure means we first have to accept that there is no clear and sporting route to the top.  I don't accept that, and many others do not.

 

Only one team can win the superleague, and only one team the cup.  That could be the same team in some years.  Until those at the top act with the best interests of the game then we'll repeat this circus every few years.  You don't make the weak stronger by kicking them in the face every time you fancy a bit more money. If you think that Leeds/Wigan et al are interested in a level competition then you're very much mistaken.

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Don't apologise for disagreeing.  The NRL is a fine and stable structure, Aussies are used to having just the top tier detached from the rest, we on the other hand are not, and for us to accept the NRL structure means we first have to accept that there is no clear and sporting route to the top.  I don't accept that, and many others do not.

Your welcome to tell me that there's "no clear and sporting route to the top. I don't accept that, and many others do not".

But to get a clear route you need to get the top CC clubs on the same money as bottom SL clubs.You do accept that SL clubs turn over an average of about £6,000,000 don't you?And that CC clubs turn over an average of £750,000.They are eight time bigger and so the route stops dead at the top of the championship.

It's not "sport" either to play professionals against semi professionals. It turns people off - see cup attendances. It's not sport either when Hudgell pumps £500K a year year on year for what? Seven years to manage bottom half of SL then give up.

If you have a clear sporting route to the top I'd like you to set it out.

The proposed competition in which Koukash's Salford (ability to pay players millions)will take on Leigh (ability to not even pay wages on time and no bonuses at all) in a competition to decide who goes into SL the year after. Is that sporting?

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I think that the clubs cant risk behaving in this manner. Imagine a club adopting this policy and then the player in a few years time falling out with the club for one reason or another. That player then has ammunition to tell the authorities of his circumstances.

 

There is no way a club would go about adopting these policies. The cap is there and the clubs are forced to abide by it or face the very likelihood that they will be caught and punished.

Yep, it's pretty much my thinking tbh.

 

I think either everybody is at it or it happens very little if at all.

 

Players move on all the time to other clubs, what is to stop a player from Club A moving to Club B and discussing this (let's be honest, if you believe people on here, players regularly tell people about their dodgy dealings). It would surely then be very easy to provide some form of evidence to challenge the clubs.

Often, dodgy dealings like this are blown open by whistleblowers, surely we would have seen a big case of this now. No doubt people will say 'the RFL ignore the claims' - but they have punished clubs in the past, and the Aussie game has come down big style on big clubs in the past.

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Your welcome to tell me that there's "no clear and sporting route to the top. I don't accept that, and many others do not".

But to get a clear route you need to get the top CC clubs on the same money as bottom SL clubs.You do accept that SL clubs turn over an average of about £6,000,000 don't you?And that CC clubs turn over an average of £750,000.They are eight time bigger and so the route stops dead at the top of the championship.

It's not "sport" either to play professionals against semi professionals. It turns people off - see cup attendances. It's not sport either when Hudgell pumps £500K a year year on year for what? Seven years to manage bottom half of SL then give up.

If you have a clear sporting route to the top I'd like you to set it out.

The proposed competition in which Koukash's Salford (ability to pay players millions)will take on Leigh (ability to not even pay wages on time and no bonuses at all) in a competition to decide who goes into SL the year after. Is that sporting?

 

 

 

I'll accept your turnover figures as read, I think that if we're going to truly have a SL2 then we must fund it EQUALLY and give it the same profile and distrubution of TV games on Sky as SL1, otherwise we simply replicate SL and the existing championship arrangements.  That isn't going to happen without more money being added to the pot though, so if it isn't then we shouldn't mess with it too much as it will be to the detriment of the game as a whole.

 

The fact that Hudgell has thrown money at HKR instead of building a solid base/squad and has finished consistently in the bottom half is more about poor business practice (signing ###### players and coaches) than it is about anything else. Andrew Glover hasn't spent any money at Wakefield, but yet has grown the crowds and hence the club's income significantly. Sport and business are mixed intrinsically, but brainpower is still often more than a match of cash and that's a kind of sporting success that I like. Like sports clubs, businesses are not guaranteed success, and if success is a top half finish, then by definition then only half can be a success in any league.

 

There was a clear sporting route, before superleague. The passage of time has done what many predicted that it would do; it's widened the gap to a chasm. Much as I've always been against licensing, I do consider that the work and effort that some clubs have gone to to comply with licensing should not be stamped down and replaced by this new nonsense proposal and that much of it would never have taken place without licensing. I'm dissapointed that Featherstone seem to be accepting a half way house which will cripple them and others over time.

 

Koukcash's millions Vs Leigh is not sporting, and if you read what I've put on a number of threads then you'll see that I think it's a daft idea which will harm ALL participating clubs.

 

Well I certainly wouldn't cite mis-matches between non superleague clubs and superleague clubs for the poorer than expected cup crowds we have seen in recent years. I think the reasons are more to do with the fact that TV is king and our broadcasting partner bangs on and on about their product and only their product – Superleague has become the be all and end all, perhaps it's time the RFL looked at how it distributes the prize money to clubs to insensitive real effort in the most famous trophy in our sport. The BBC who have the rights for the cup don't pay it anymore than lip service. I love the cup, but I feel that the RFL really have to work on its promotion. I occasionally attend the grand final, but I always attend the challenge cup final. I can't see that changing for me anytime soon.

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