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Tories Europe Implode

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This is taken to be an iron law of general elections, but I'm not sure it is true at the moment.

 

If any party can harness even a small proportion of the disillusioned non-voters they could win a surprise landslide from the left or right, leaving everyone else triangulating helplessly in the middle.

I see where you're coming from...

 

I'm a fairly middle-left voter and I haven't a clue who to vote for these days at Parliamentary level.  None of the big parties even come close to representing what I want.  This is the first time since I could legally vote that I probably wouldn't bother as none of them deserve my vote.  That said, if I had to use my vote in a destructive way to stop a Tory or UKIP candidate getting in then I'd probably toss a coin between Labour and the Lib Dems as not quite as bad as the other two.

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We had the UKIP wannabe councillor round knocking on doors canvassing* just before the recent election and I was in a fairly awkward mood so I asked him to give me an example or two of what the EU had done to us that was so bad.  I had hoped he could give one or two good examples, they do exist.  He started with "interfering with our rights to deport criminals like Abu Qatada", unfortunately that's the ECHR which is nothing to do with the EU.  He then told me that I was wrong and l should go check my facts.  That was a good point to say "goodbye" and shut the door on him.

 

The problem Cameron has, and I'm sure his electoral advisers are telling him this daily, is that it's the middle ground that wins elections.  Enthuse them and you win regardless of what those at the less central positions think.  Blair did it magnificently in 1997 and 2001, Cameron failed to do this and barely scraped through into a coalition against a very unconvincing and widely ridiculed PM in Brown.  The even bigger problem is that Miliband is just as unconvincing as Brown and isn't enthusing the middle ground.  The Lib Dems are about as electable as herpes and have absolutely no clue how to sell their Europhile stance.

 

In 1997, Blair had a whole raft of massive policies to bring in from fixing the NHS to minimum wage, all sold with brutal efficiency to the middle ground.  People were voting FOR something.  Cameron, Clegg, Miliband and Farage are all hiding their lack of any inspiring policies** behind campaigning AGAINST things.  (Clegg is just an annoying squeak just now so he's just against what Mumsnet tells him to be against hoping that someone out there still has an "I'm with Nick" t-shirt)

 

* to be fair to him, he was the only one who bothered.

** would it be more accurate to delete the word "inspiring"?

 

That is my main problem with UKIP, the 'Eurosceptic' press and the right-wing of the Tory party, and their main case against the EU. Their case is almost totally based upon myths, ignorance and downright lies. I don't know if this campaigner was an outright liar, but if he was using this example as his main campaigning point then you'd have thought he would have checked the reality of the situation.

 

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I don't understand it either....especially as the polls show support for EU membership. It's not the city in my view..they have lots to lose by leaving. It's the shires and the stupid wing, augmented by those who would rather be in opposition than coalition.

I'd like to have seen Cameron kick the old farts out and let them join UKIP so that moderates like me could continue to support Cameron.

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I don't understand it either....especially as the polls show support for EU membership. It's not the city in my view..they have lots to lose by leaving. It's the shires and the stupid wing, augmented by those who would rather be in opposition than coalition.

I'd like to have seen Cameron kick the old farts out and let them join UKIP so that moderates like me could continue to support Cameron.

 

Which shows how out of touch Cameron is. Or how out of touch you are. ;)

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Out of touch? Only to the extent that he hadn't contacted me for advice.

He needs to exercise some leadership. The polls would back him. Who needs fools like Nadine Doris?

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I don't understand it either....especially as the polls show support for EU membership. It's not the city in my view..they have lots to lose by leaving. It's the shires and the stupid wing, augmented by those who would rather be in opposition than coalition.

I'd like to have seen Cameron kick the old farts out and let them join UKIP so that moderates like me could continue to support Cameron.

 

What I don'tunderstand is all the fuss. According to a poll on Today, Europeam Membership does not even come in the top ten of people's concerns. But here it is centre stage again.  Somebody somewhere has an agenda. Someone somewhere wants us out. Who? Why?

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It must break your heart to admit that I'm right.

:D

I agree with you about the potholes.

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What I don'tunderstand is all the fuss. According to a poll on Today, Europeam Membership does not even come in the top ten of people's concerns. But here it is centre stage again.  Somebody somewhere has an agenda. Someone somewhere wants us out. Who? Why?

Clearly lots of people want us out.

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I don't understand it either....especially as the polls show support for EU membership. It's not the city in my view..they have lots to lose by leaving. It's the shires and the stupid wing, augmented by those who would rather be in opposition than coalition.

I'd like to have seen Cameron kick the old farts out and let them join UKIP so that moderates like me could continue to support Cameron.

 

Isn't it the case, though, that a lot of the more determined Eurosceptics/Europhobics are in the group of MPs elected for the first time in 2010? They are the future of the Tory Party!

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The future in that they will only be MPs for two more years?

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I don't understand it either....especially as the polls show support for EU membership. It's not the city in my view..they have lots to lose by leaving. It's the shires and the stupid wing, augmented by those who would rather be in opposition than coalition.

I'd like to have seen Cameron kick the old farts out and let them join UKIP so that moderates like me could continue to support Cameron.

 

The problem with that, from Dave's point of view, is mid parliamentary term as we are now that would further erode his slender coalition majority. Of course the 2015 general election would rectify the situation once the defectors to UKIP lose their seats.

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I'm not one to agree with Thatcher but on this issue I do, referenda are a device of dictators and demagogues.

 

I personally really dislike them, I think they let incredibly important issues be decided by people with no real understanding of the issues. They reduce complicated and important issues to whichever side can run the best campaign and can get their points across most often and hopefully trip the other side up. It has little to do with the actual issue itself.

 

The issue of whether we should be in Europe or not is an incredibly complicated one and not something I have a firm opinion on. After all, I'm a teacher, I don't know the ins and outs of the relationship between us and the EU and with the contradictory soundbites we hear from both sides, it's often hard to know what to believe. Despite this, I suspect I have a greater understanding of it than your average Brit, I have a politics A-level and I do follow politics relatively closely. Rather than being a case that the Great British public vote with full understanding of the facts, I suspect that swathes will vote because of either Europhobic reasons or because their party tells them to vote one way or the other.

 

It's also an irreversible decision once it's made. This is problematic because public opinion on something like Europe is so changeable. The decision to stay or leave could come down to the public feeling that month. However, it will be irreversible, if we leave they won't have us back because the public have decided they like them again 2 years down the line.

 

What I dislike about it most at the moment is the way that it is childishly being used by the politicians who want it. It's all about giving the Great British public their say on an important matter and anybody that doesn't want to do this, doesn't want to give the people their rightful say. It is pure populism and is going to back us into a referendum that I suspect none of the major parties actually want. If referenda were so great, we should have them all the time on every important issue.

 

I'd love to see the Tory MP's put the next budget to a referendum. After all, shouldn't the public get their say on such important matters?

 

Right that's my tuppence worth. I'm off to poll my class on what they'd like to do for the next 6 weeks.

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Nick Clegg accused of showing a "complete disdain" for the British public over EU vote.

 

Are these people serious?  I have far more contempt for politicians over the expenses scandal than something that's so far down the list of "must fix" items for the general public.

 

Yes, they are serious.  But you (and me) are irrelevant to them.  

 

This is an about ideological purity and maintaining control of the Conservative Party.   The real world is a distraction to them on this one.

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I'm not one to agree with Thatcher but on this issue I do, referenda are a device of dictators and demagogues.

 

I personally really dislike them, I think they let incredibly important issues be decided by people with no real understanding of the issues. They reduce complicated and important issues to whichever side can run the best campaign and can get their points across most often and hopefully trip the other side up. It has little to do with the actual issue itself.

 

The issue of whether we should be in Europe or not is an incredibly complicated one and not something I have a firm opinion on. After all, I'm a teacher, I don't know the ins and outs of the relationship between us and the EU and with the contradictory soundbites we hear from both sides, it's often hard to know what to believe. Despite this, I suspect I have a greater understanding of it than your average Brit, I have a politics A-level and I do follow politics relatively closely. Rather than being a case that the Great British public vote with full understanding of the facts, I suspect that swathes will vote because of either Europhobic reasons or because their party tells them to vote one way or the other.

 

It's also an irreversible decision once it's made. This is problematic because public opinion on something like Europe is so changeable. The decision to stay or leave could come down to the public feeling that month. However, it will be irreversible, if we leave they won't have us back because the public have decided they like them again 2 years down the line.

 

What I dislike about it most at the moment is the way that it is childishly being used by the politicians who want it. It's all about giving the Great British public their say on an important matter and anybody that doesn't want to do this, doesn't want to give the people their rightful say. It is pure populism and is going to back us into a referendum that I suspect none of the major parties actually want. If referenda were so great, we should have them all the time on every important issue.

 

I'd love to see the Tory MP's put the next budget to a referendum. After all, shouldn't the public get their say on such important matters?

 

Right that's my tuppence worth. I'm off to poll my class on what they'd like to do for the next 6 weeks.

 

 

That's it in a nutshell though isn't it. If we vote to come out we'll be out for good. It's not the hokey cokey. In, out, in, out, shake it all about.  It took us years to get them to accept us.  But what if we vote to  stay in?  Will that shut the anti Europeans up - somehow I doubt it.  The big money - the city, the media bosses are behind this campaign. If they lose they'll just start agitating for another, and another and another. At the moment most of Europe is in recession, and not an attractive propositon. But surely when the Coal and Steel treaty was first signed most of Europe was recovering from the war and we refused to have any connection with them - which we later came to regret.  As Max says, these issues are too complicated and too clouded by prejudice stirred up by the right wing press. I'm pro EU.  I'm not sure that's the right thing to be, but until someone comes up with a cogent argument that I can understand as to why we should leave, I'll remain pro EU.

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For gods sake lets get out ASAP:)))

CM

In the interests of educating me, who just can't see it, can you please let me know WHY we should be out ASAP?

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In the interests of educating me, who just can't see it, can you please let me know WHY we should be out ASAP?

Isn't it obvious?

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Isn't it obvious?

Furriners start at Dover?  Also, those people north of Cumbria and Northumberland.  And those people on the other side of the Severn Bridge by Bristol.  Don't get me started on the Irish.  In fact, anyone outside our county, or even town or street depending on what mood we're in.

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For gods sake lets get out ASAP:)))

CM

As god doesn't exist can we stay in?

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In the interests of educating me, who just can't see it, can you please let me know WHY we should be out ASAP?

 

We should pull out so those european workers will get sent home and stop working in our country.  (sent from my french villa as I work in Europe and like the open borders when they apply to me and my job).

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Federal europe a la francaise. :O

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Furriners start at Dover?  Also, those people north of Cumbria and Northumberland.  And those people on the other side of the Severn Bridge by Bristol.  Don't get me started on the Irish.  In fact, anyone outside our county, or even town or street depending on what mood we're in.

 

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