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flyingking

Toulouse think they will hear about Superleague decision soon

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1937.  Does google not work for you?

 

One thing that needs to be considered is that Toulouse is one club in a large city.  It's not like Cas, where there is one professional club and a whole network of amateur ones.

It does...sorry....thank you for that....

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Why shouldn't they front up some substance?  

The likes of Fev have shown their statement of intent very, very clearly by starting refurbishment work.  That's about 100 times more valuable than PR fluff.

No doubt it would help if it was real substance. O'Connor offered to lodge a £500,000 guarantee with the RFL to guarantee his intentions towards Superleague as a result of Widnes' rejection in 2009.

Now that was fronting up.

As for the Featherstone refurbishment works, haven't Toulouse also done some work to their ground too, like expanding the capacity to 10,000 or something???.

 

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More if you include Hunslet and Leeds.

I don't see it as a negative that West Yorkshire has an abundance of people playing and watching RL, I know you don't either Frank. Toulouse on the other hand, and I speak from some experience here - albeit from some time ago, does not have the density of RL fans on the ground that West Yorkshire is blessed with, and so will need a much wider geographical area to work within in order to get the punters in.

I don't see it as a negative either

I do see it as a negative that the elite competition has three teams from the same limited area all with a limited amount to offer the competition and only one with a potential for growth after years of taking the pi ss. if it came to a choice between fev and Toulouse Toulouse win hands down

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As for the Featherstone refurbishment works, haven't Toulouse also done some work to their ground too, like expanding the capacity to 10,000 or something??

 

nah, Toulouse haven't started the refurbishment work - they are awaiting a green light from the RFL before committing - if they get the go-ahead work will commence in the new year with the first phase being completed for the start of SL in 2015 with the second phase following soon after - all 'big' games that is, with larger crowds expected will be played at Stade Toulousain thanks to an agreement made in 2012

 

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The advantage of Toulouse and the ground situation, like you say, is that there are a few grounds in the area that they can play at until then. Obvious Stade Ernest Wallon is one (although probably a bit big for what they'll need). There was another one mentioned before as well. I think it was this one:

http://www.worldstadiums.com/stadium_pictures/europe/france/midi_pyrenees/colomiers_selery.shtml

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Toulouse haven't started the refurbishment work - they are awaiting a green light from the RFL before committing - if they get the go-ahead work will commence in the new year.......

Thank you for that..... seems in reality Tououse won't be proving anything to the 2014 licensing commitee. Following the big four's visit the other month and a conflab with the RFL it's a case of "we decide". One rule for one etc....

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1. Take your pick on which areas Featherstone are in front of the rest on wether investment, crowds or player development. I think you will accept Featherstone are well in front of Sheffield who can't grow their crowds or develop sheffield players into SL players, and well in front of leigh who are skint and a feeder club.

2, As for how far Featherstone are in front of Halifax I reckon this is your problem, as Fax are your team. I'd certainly welcome your analysis in the various areas of the licensing criteria where your clubs stand againnst featherstone??You have already made a start by telling me that Halifax's crowds are going down and featherstones going up, so Fax are miles behind there. care to fill in the gaps beyond that most important of points?

3. We discussed the situation CC clubs have of having all on to make the £1,000,000 turnover criteria for Superleague. I suggested Rovers would be stuck going up becaise £1M of turnover plus £1.2M of SKY money only comes to £2.2M.CKN suggests you need £3.2M just to hang on to the bottom rung of Superleague and you certainly need£6M to compete with the big boys of SL.When I suggested that the answer was Mr. Nahaboos promise to "spend full cap year on year" IIRC you spoke about how this was not guaranteed and that Mr. Abbot and other potential investors may also be able to match that, so I was not to discount Halifax. You felt they were equal contenders to Featherstone even though both applications would be based on a big fat "financial promise"And back on topic a promise that Toulouse are't allowed to make for some reason. They have to open the suitcase and show the bundles....

1, so it's only the crowds that they are behind on? Do you know what player pathway they have in place at Sheffield?

2, not my problem at all, I am not the one making suggestion that clubs are "miles" behind others, especially when they don't really have any facts to back them up. So I would suggest this is your problem.

3, You said that "Even their own fans say that to get round the debacle of their business being adjudged to as "falling below the standards" it's needs, Mr Abbot and others stump up riches". It's isn't the same as your point you have said above. Yes we have discussed that Tony Abbot is putting money in to the club, I haven't read any post about him "stumping" up cash to get round anything.. Please point out where this has been discussed?

Oh and you took it off topic, with statements about other clubs current standing.

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Thank you for that..... seems in reality Tououse won't be proving anything to the 2014 licensing commitee. Following the big four's visit the other month and a conflab with the RFL it's a case of "we decide". One rule for one etc....

 

There isn't going to be a licensing comittee in 2014.

 

Hetherington admits in today's LE that there has to be change and that the 3x8 "has merit".   Surprised you didn't mention this when you were singing his praises earlier in the thread.

 

Nigel Wood has already stated that the status quo is not an option also.

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Thank you for that..... seems in reality Tououse won't be proving anything to the 2014 licensing commitee. Following the big four's visit the other month and a conflab with the RFL it's a case of "we decide". One rule for one etc....

many of the present SL chairmen plus Ralph Rimmer & other RFL bods have either visited Toulouse or had talks with Carlos over the past few years - the RFL see Toulouse as a genuine expansion area compared to similar areas of the uk

 

the rfl want to feather their own nest obviously and see Toulouse as a possible way to increase the profile of SL

 

there is no way the Toulouse city council will release the redevelopment money without an SL agreement which is a  pretty sensible approach I would say - yes 'one rule for one' etc but who cares ?

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As for the crowds they will not only come from Toulouse but also the wider RL community (Much which is currently dormant) Albi/St Gaudens/Cahors/Villefrance etc.

CM

 

 

true CM but the Toulouse catchment area is larger than that - we are looking at a radius of about 100km plus including the Carcassonne/Limoux areas Albi/Gaillac St Gaudens to the south and a very important area is around Villeneuve sur Lot maybe extending to Bordeaux

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1, so it's only the crowds that they are behind on? Do you know what player pathway they have in place at Sheffield?

2, not my problem at all, I am not the one making suggestion that clubs are "miles" behind others, especially when they don't really have any facts to back them up. So I would suggest this is your problem.

3, You said that "Even their own fans say that to get round the debacle of their business being adjudged to as "falling below the standards" it's needs, Mr Abbot and others stump up riches". It's isn't the same as your point you have said above. Yes we have discussed that Tony Abbot is putting money in to the club, I haven't read any post about him "stumping" up cash to get round anything.. Please point out where this has been discussed?

Oh and you took it off topic, with statements about other clubs current standing.

1. No, clubs on less that a £million turnover are £millions of pounds short of clubs on turnovers of £4, £5 and £6 and £7 million turnovers. Yes Shefield have a player development pathway, I know all about it, but what it needs to do is produce professional players which Sheffield don't. How many junior amateur clubs are there in Sheffield - you tell me now. Being an average of £2-3,000,000 a season short for competing in Superleague is miles behind. Not producing professional players is miles behind.

2. So the amount of money clubs turn over, the amount of players they produce and the level of support they have are not "facts" enough for you then? Then we must beg to differ. I have no problem standing back and comparing Superleague clubs to potential Superleague clubs, I make a direct comparison.

3. Wether it's been discussed or not the simple point is if you have few fans the chairman can pay for the empty seats, if you don't produce Pro players the chairman can buy all the players in that's always been the case, that's the case Fev fans admit to. Their only pro they produced recently is tearing it up at Leeds, they admit they'll need a number of pros and will not get big crowds, and so point to Mr. Nahaboo who has pledged to guaranteed "full cap spend".

Yes it's off topic, apologies to everyone but you asked and it doesn't harm to answer.

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many of the present SL chairmen plus Ralph Rimmer & other RFL bods have either visited Toulouse or had talks with Carlos over the past few years - the RFL see Toulouse as a genuine expansion area compared to similar areas of the uk

 

the rfl want to feather their own nest obviously and see Toulouse as a possible way to increase the profile of SL

 

there is no way the Toulouse city council will release the redevelopment money without an SL agreement which is a  pretty sensible approach I would say - yes 'one rule for one' etc but who cares ?

Thank you for that. I don't care at all that it's "one rule for one" what overides everything is making Super League a success. The game should have over ridden the clubs years ago IMHO and treated Superleague and the SKY contract as belonging to the game not the clubs. Deciding things by "committee" isn't good business but it seems in the real world the top few club chairman decide with the RFL.

Yes it's sensible in my book for Toulouse not to build a 10,000 seater without an SL place. I guess if they get the nod soon and start building that will be "concrete evidence" of the clubs intentions.

Even having said that HKR have created concrete intentions developing New Craven Park and the wallet's now shut there.

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Hetherington admits in today's LE that there has to be change and that the 3x8 "has merit".   Surprised you didn't mention this when you were singing his praises earlier in the thread.

He also said that the problem is in the detail, surprised you left this out?

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Whatever the current status, activity of the licencing committee, or the state of play in the restructure proposals the nettle needs to be firmly and decisively grasped on the acceptance of Toulouse into Super League. Fortunately it appears that decision is not too far away. Both Canetman, who really is on the ground and knows personally many of the key players in French RL and Oiseau who also has an "on the ground" sense of what Toulouse means in terms of it's position as a potential major player in French sport, are both absolutely spot on. If Toulouse are not given the green light soon a major opportunity for the sport will be lost. Concerns about how many actual RL fans there are currently on the ground in the city is an irrelevance. Equally the presence of strong RU and football clubs in the city is equally not a hindrance to the prospects for a Super League club, but positively an indicator that this affluent, young, vital city will support any high profile successful operation, as will the local wealthy Mairie and other public and commercial organisations, which proliferate in the area.

And as both CM and Oiseau have reminded us the potential catchment area is enormous, attracting many new fans in the city and hinterland but also committed treizistes from much further afield as far as the Pyrenees, and the treiziste areas of the Aude. whislt the strong developing area of the Tarn is even closer.

A professional French SL is such a non-starter. I hope now that the RFL/SL will finally grasp the benefits for all this can bring. A Toulouse presence in Super League will greatly enhance the profile of RL in France, benefitting not only the Elite, the Catalan Dragons and the French national team, but grassroots RL all over this vast country. That media interest at a national level is not there, despite the progress that has been made with such as L'Equipe. It is that enhanced profile that will bring more into the sport, whether more young players, an alternative pro pathway to the Dragons, but also business interest.

I felt that Toulouse were let down by the previous Chair of the Federation, who meekly seemed to have accepted the ludicrous offer of a place in the Championship. Toulouse had little choice to accept but it was a "poisoned chalice". Because of his background the new Chair of the Federation has pushed the case for a second SL club in France very hard. But despite the odd jibe to the contrary it will be the whole of French RL that will benefit from a second French club, i.e. Toulouse. The Elite is currently in a pickle, certainly with next season looking worrying. But a Toulouse presence in SL will also be a boost to those clubs waiting in the wings to enter the Elite in 2014-15, namely Lyon, Bordeaux and a Tarn club. Finally if the decision makers and marketing people at the RFL and SLE can't make something of the marketing opportunity of a more credible SL Europe, thanks to a Toulouse presence then I give up. But please listen to CM and Oiseau on this issue.

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Whatever the current status, activity of the licencing committee, or the state of play in the restructure proposals the nettle needs to be firmly and decisively grasped on the acceptance of Toulouse into Super League. Fortunately it appears that decision is not too far away. Both Canetman, who really is on the ground and knows personally many of the key players in French RL and Oiseau who also has an "on the ground" sense of what Toulouse means in terms of it's position as a potential major player in French sport, are both absolutely spot on. If Toulouse are not given the green light soon a major opportunity for the sport will be lost. Concerns about how many actual RL fans there are currently on the ground in the city is an irrelevance. Equally the presence of strong RU and football clubs in the city is equally not a hindrance to the prospects for a Super League club, but positively an indicator that this affluent, young, vital city will support any high profile successful operation, as will the local wealthy Mairie and other public and commercial organisations, which proliferate in the area.

And as both CM and Oiseau have reminded us the potential catchment area is enormous, attracting many new fans in the city and hinterland but also committed treizistes from much further afield as far as the Pyrenees, and the treiziste areas of the Aude. whislt the strong developing area of the Tarn is even closer.

A professional French much harder. I hope now that the RFLSL is such a non-starter. A Toulouse presence in Super League will greatly enhance the profile of RL in France, benefitting not only the Elite, the Ctalan Dragons and the French national team, but grassroots RL all over this vast country. That media interest at a national level is not there, despite the progress that has been made with such as L'Equipe. It is that enhanced profile that will bring more into the sport, whether more young players, an alternative pro pathway to the Dragons, but also business interest.

I felt that Toulouse were let down by the previous Chair of the Federation, who meekly seemed to have accepted the ludicrous offer of a place in the Championship. Toulouse had little choice to accept but it was a "poisoned chalice". Because of his background the new Chair of the Federation has pushed the case for a second SL club in France very hard. But despite the odd jibe to the contrary it will be the whole of French RL that will benefit from a second French club, i.e. Toulouse. The Elite is currently in a pickle, certainly with next season looking worrying. But a Toulouse presence in SL will also be a boost to those clubs waiting in the wings to enter the Elite in 2014-15, namely Lyon, Bordeaux and a Tarn club. Finally if the decision makers and marketing people at the RFL and SLE can't make something of the marketing opportunity of a more credible SL Europe, thanks to a Toulouse presence then I give up. But please listen to CM and Oiseau on this issue.

I'd rather listen to you, but Canetman has been a breath of fresh air.

Big thanks for a superb post from the expert.....

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I'd rather listen to you, but Canetman has been a breath of fresh air.

Big thanks for a superb post from the expert.....

Just had to edit out a couple of mistakes in my original post but still hope it made sense before. Still not quite used to using my fingers instead of a mouse in what is a very sensitive brand new lap top. But getting there.

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Just had to edit out a couple of mistakes in my original post but still hope it made sense before. Still not quite used to using my fingers instead of a mouse in what is a very sensitive brand new lap top. But getting there.

Hang in there. I have no mouse on my laptop and after a while, you can't understand why you ever needed one.

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He also said that the problem is in the detail, surprised you left this out?

 

His exact words are:-

 

"Perhaps it needs further refinement, and that may come at the next meeting, when people have looked at it in detail, and will be able to make a rational judgement"

 

A little bit different from what you are trying to imply

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Whatever the current status, activity of the licencing committee, or the state of play in the restructure proposals the nettle needs to be firmly and decisively grasped on the acceptance of Toulouse into Super League. Fortunately it appears that decision is not too far away. Both Canetman, who really is on the ground and knows personally many of the key players in French RL and Oiseau who also has an "on the ground" sense of what Toulouse means in terms of it's position as a potential major player in French sport, are both absolutely spot on. If Toulouse are not given the green light soon a major opportunity for the sport will be lost. Concerns about how many actual RL fans there are currently on the ground in the city is an irrelevance. Equally the presence of strong RU and football clubs in the city is equally not a hindrance to the prospects for a Super League club, but positively an indicator that this affluent, young, vital city will support any high profile successful operation, as will the local wealthy Mairie and other public and commercial organisations, which proliferate in the area.

And as both CM and Oiseau have reminded us the potential catchment area is enormous, attracting many new fans in the city and hinterland but also committed treizistes from much further afield as far as the Pyrenees, and the treiziste areas of the Aude. whislt the strong developing area of the Tarn is even closer.

A professional French SL is such a non-starter. I hope now that the RFL/SL will finally grasp the benefits for all this can bring. A Toulouse presence in Super League will greatly enhance the profile of RL in France, benefitting not only the Elite, the Catalan Dragons and the French national team, but grassroots RL all over this vast country. That media interest at a national level is not there, despite the progress that has been made with such as L'Equipe. It is that enhanced profile that will bring more into the sport, whether more young players, an alternative pro pathway to the Dragons, but also business interest.

I felt that Toulouse were let down by the previous Chair of the Federation, who meekly seemed to have accepted the ludicrous offer of a place in the Championship. Toulouse had little choice to accept but it was a "poisoned chalice". Because of his background the new Chair of the Federation has pushed the case for a second SL club in France very hard. But despite the odd jibe to the contrary it will be the whole of French RL that will benefit from a second French club, i.e. Toulouse. The Elite is currently in a pickle, certainly with next season looking worrying. But a Toulouse presence in SL will also be a boost to those clubs waiting in the wings to enter the Elite in 2014-15, namely Lyon, Bordeaux and a Tarn club. Finally if the decision makers and marketing people at the RFL and SLE can't make something of the marketing opportunity of a more credible SL Europe, thanks to a Toulouse presence then I give up. But please listen to CM and Oiseau on this issue.

Thanks for an excellent post as usual - an important factor here is Carlos, the ex-president of TO13 now head honcho at the FFR13, his groundwork whilst at Toulouse has got us this far and his continued enthousiasm will be vital to see the job through

He is now in the perfect position at the FFR13 to carry on the negotiations and his fluent english as well as his important contacts in the ESL & RFL will give TO13 the biggest possible opportunity to succeed

He is a tireless worker and pretty astute on the marketing side - can't think of a better person to be in charge of the bid

Yes, a Toulouse presence in the ESL will be another big boost to the french game just as much as the Catalans have proved. Carlos still has plans to restructure the LER and other domestic leagues however an important ongoing ambition is to secure a joint Catalans/TO13 tv deal with Bein Sports; this important factor hasn't really been discussed though it is pivotal in any future Toulouse ESL participation

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This entire thread boils down to one very simple question

 

Do you or do you not believe that the priority for Rugby League in the Northern Hemisphere is having a second French club in Super League to strengthen the game in France, widen the player base and provide England / Great Britain with genuine international competition given time ?

 

On a different thread, I did post that you can make a case out for a second French Club. If you did have Toulouse then you would have to answer "The catalan question" Rugby Leagues equivalent of the West Lothian Question. Which is simply where would these clubs be relegated to?. The answer would be they should not be. Which is something the game has to accept even with P&R for the other clubs.

 

Alternatively you can have the viewpoint that French Rugby League is nothing to do with anyone north of the English Channel and that its a "Northern game for Northern people" or "all northern lads" as Paul Cullen's Freudian Slip came out with on Boots n'All a few months ago and West Yorkshire derbys are the way to go.

 

Both are valid viewpoints, but what the game as a whole needs to decide is which option it is going to take for losing one outpost team in Crusaders is unfortunate but when the second one goes in London at the end of this season, the game will have to decide what kind of package it is going to present to Broadcasters and sponsors, which in itself, will be determined by whether the game sees itself becoming a major sport over the next 20-30 years or a local game for local people, eternally quoting satellite subscription channel viewing figures to reassure itself it's a game that matters..

 

The decisions made this season will determine the fate of the game over the next 30 years.

 

BTW -  Back when Toulouse made the challenge cup semi-final under Justin Morgan were we not all saying that perhaps the wrong French Club had been given the nod for Super League...

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This entire thread boils down to one very simple question

 

Do you or do you not believe that the priority for Rugby League in the Northern Hemisphere is having a second French club in Super League to strengthen the game in France, widen the player base and provide England / Great Britain with genuine international competition given time ?

 

On a different thread, I did post that you can make a case out for a second French Club. If you did have Toulouse then you would have to answer "The catalan question" Rugby Leagues equivalent of the West Lothian Question. Which is simply where would these clubs be relegated to?. The answer would be they should not be. Which is something the game has to accept even with P&R for the other clubs.

 

Alternatively you can have the viewpoint that French Rugby League is nothing to do with anyone north of the English Channel and that its a "Northern game for Northern people" or "all northern lads" as Paul Cullen's Freudian Slip came out with on Boots n'All a few months ago and West Yorkshire derbys are the way to go.

 

Both are valid viewpoints, but what the game as a whole needs to decide is which option it is going to take for losing one outpost team in Crusaders is unfortunate but when the second one goes in London at the end of this season, the game will have to decide what kind of package it is going to present to Broadcasters and sponsors, which in itself, will be determined by whether the game sees itself becoming a major sport over the next 20-30 years or a local game for local people, eternally quoting satellite subscription channel viewing figures to reassure itself it's a game that matters..

 

The decisions made this season will determine the fate of the game over the next 30 years.

 

BTW -  Back when Toulouse made the challenge cup semi-final under Justin Morgan were we not all saying that perhaps the wrong French Club had been given the nod for Super League...

 

That's a really thought provoking post

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His exact words are:-

 

"Perhaps it needs further refinement, and that may come at the next meeting, when people have looked at it in detail, and will be able to make a rational judgement"

 

A little bit different from what you are trying to imply

In turn I don't know what you are implying, if it's that you prefer the new set up and you feel Rovers have more chance advancing in that set up, rather than joining the SL in it's current form then say so, and we can discuss? Back on topic I wonder how Toulouse would be fitted in in any change to the current format?

Three clubs relegated 2014??

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This entire thread boils down to one very simple question

 

Do you or do you not believe that the priority for Rugby League in the Northern Hemisphere is having a second French club in Super League to strengthen the game in France, widen the player base and provide England / Great Britain with genuine international competition given time ?

An excellent post and excellent summation.

The question is simple, the answer needs to be made in terms of what's good for the game and not "my club" as two french and a London side clogging up Superleague may be blocking "my club" from entry.

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