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JohnM

Question Time from Scotland

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For what it is worth, we don't willing let Afghans grow poppies out of complete disregard for the consequences. We could probably wipe out the entire poppy harvest each year if we really wanted to. But could you imagine the ramifications of such a policy? Most of the rural population rely on farming as their main source of income. As poppy is the main cash crop, you'd alienate the vast majority of the rural popualtion across the entire country. That isn't going to make GIRoA look particular good in the eyes of the population is it?!

 

 

Nothing will. The whole exercise has been a wholesale disaster from  practical, military and political objectives.

 

When the west pulls out with its tail between its legs, the Taliban will once again take over and heroin will continue to flood into the USA and Europe.

 

So many lives and limbs lost, a futile jingoistic exercise that we entered  just to massage Blair's ego.

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Fair point. But what about birth certificates etc? Yes it would be a monumental organisational task but on an issue so important, is it not right to consult all Scots (+ other nationalities living in Scotland)? I know many people who are Scottish but live elsewhere who want to have a vote on the issue.

Basically they don't live in Scotland but would like to tell those who do what to do. Understandable but the result wouldn't impact them in the same way that it would somebody living in Dundee.

 

Hey I'd like a vote too.

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Nothing will. The whole exercise has been a wholesale disaster from  practical, military and political objectives.

 

When the west pulls out with its tail between its legs, the Taliban will once again take over and heroin will continue to flood into the USA and Europe.

 

So many lives and limbs lost, a futile jingoistic exercise that we entered  just to massage Blair's ego.

 

Just because you see bad news on the TV doesn't necessarily mean the whole adventure has been an unmigitating disaster... Plenty of practical, military and political objectives have been achieved and may very well last when NATO/Coalition combat troops leave. We aren't also completing pulling out; large numbers of training staff and advisors will stay to continue training Afghan forces, which are gradually becoming a rather compotent and battle-hardened force. Anyone who thinks the Taliban are literally going to walk into central Kabul and return to power are very much misguided and don't understand the dynamics of the insurgency, population or the country itself. 

 

I'd argue hunting and killing Al Qaeda post-9/11 was entirely justified. That said, I am not justifying the decision to try and rebuild the country. People can argue the benefits and costs of that decision until they were blue in the face (or popped!). I am just stating it is not as black and white as some people think. Oh and yes, that your original statement was incorrect! :)

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Basically they don't live in Scotland but would like to tell those who do what to do. Understandable but the result wouldn't impact them in the same way that it would somebody living in Dundee.

 

Hey I'd like a vote too.

 

It's not that simple though is it?! People have links back to Scotland from all over the UK. What about students currently studying in England but will move back to Scotland once they have finished their studies. Just one example...

 

That said, it obviously makes the process easier of course. :tongue:

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It's not that simple though is it?! People have links back to Scotland from all over the UK. What about students currently studying in England but will move back to Scotland once they have finished their studies. Just one example...

Everybody has some link to Scotland even if they are completely English (or Welsh etc). There is no such thing as Scottish nationality so we can only go on who can legally vote in a Scottish election. Otherwise we allow one side or the other to rig the vote e.g. (in my admittedly anecdotal experience), Scots living in England would mostly vote "No". Scots at English universities might well be the opposite (they are young). Best not to allow politicians to pick and choose arbitrarily who can vote.

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GS

 

You know more about soldiering and Afghanistan than I ever will, but you're too close to the exercise to be wholly objective.

 

I would guess that most of the rest of people in this country:-

 - doesn't give a monkeys whether Al Quaeda or the Taliban runs the drug trade. It does care that we have done nothing to stop the drug supply.

 - can see that we are not 'withdrawing',we have been beaten. We are running away because we can't win and we can't afford to keep trying.

 - Al Quaeda hasn't been eradicated; it's moved its training bases and activities to Africa. Congratulations, you've been the agent to make it expand its operations.

 - If we really wanted to take on Al Quaeda, Saudi Arabia would be a god place to start.

- all the war-disabled soldiers will get wholly unsatisfactory treatment from the UK government over the next fifty years.

 -

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 Otherwise we allow one side or the other to rig the vote e.g. (in my admittedly anecdotal experience),

 

Aren't the SNP attempting to do that anyway by lowering the voting age to 16?

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GS

 

You know more about soldiering and Afghanistan than I ever will, but you're too close to the exercise to be wholly objective.

 

I would guess that most of the rest of people in this country:-

 - doesn't give a monkeys whether Al Quaeda or the Taliban runs the drug trade. It does care that we have done nothing to stop the drug supply.

 - Al Quaeda hasn't been eradicated; it's moved its training bases and activities to Africa. Congratulations, you've been the agent to make it expand its operations.

 - If we really wanted to take on Al Quaeda, Saudi Arabia would be a god place to start.

I do give a money's who runs the drug trade. I'd far rather there wasn't one but if there has to be one, I'd prefer that it doesn't fund Islamic terrorism.

 

Al Qaeda has always been in Africa, this is nothing new e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_United_States_embassy_bombings

 

Invading Saudi Arabia, alas, would that it was possible. We wouldn't just be fighting Al Qaeda if we occupied Mecca and Medina.

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Aren't the SNP attempting to do that anyway by lowering the voting age to 16?

Yes, they are. Salmond has few morals. Cameron shouldn't allow him to. Even if I want them to vote "yes", this is despicable.

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GS

 

You know more about soldiering and Afghanistan than I ever will, but you're too close to the exercise to be wholly objective.

 

I would guess that most of the rest of people in this country:-

 - doesn't give a monkeys whether Al Quaeda or the Taliban runs the drug trade. It does care that we have done nothing to stop the drug supply.

 - can see that we are not 'withdrawing',we have been beaten. We are running away because we can't win and we can't afford to keep trying.

 - Al Quaeda hasn't been eradicated; it's moved its training bases and activities to Africa. Congratulations, you've been the agent to make it expand its operations.

 - If we really wanted to take on Al Quaeda, Saudi Arabia would be a god place to start.

- all the war-disabled soldiers will get wholly unsatisfactory treatment from the UK government over the next fifty years.

 -

 

I think you are a bit injust to me on the objectivity issue! :D I am probably less militant or indoctrinated on issues than most people on this forum. :D

 

If that is what the UK population think, well:

 

1. They would entirely justified in those thoughts.

2. We could win but would need (which we have never had!) the political and public to allow us to succeed. That of course will and never was going to happen in the first place.

3. Al Qaeda in Afghanistan and the leadership has been eradicated. They were already in Africa pre-9/11 (just changed names!) and are being hunted and defeated in Africa as you and I talk ###### on a website!

4. The Saudi authorities do a good enough job at eradicating Al Qaeda as a terrorist threat in their own country. The funding through Saudi for Al Qaeda has been massively hindered but could always clamped down further.

5. Can't really comment on that other than say the current care is very excellent.

 

Shall we discuss something else before NS tells us we are both wrong?!

 

P.S. Looks like he beat me to it... :D

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Yes, they are. Salmond has few morals. Cameron shouldn't allow him to. Even if I want them to vote "yes", this is despicable.

 

Well at least they'll be closer to discovering Aliens!

 

N.B. If you didn't see the programme last night, that was one of the reasons for Independence by one young Scot.

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Shall we discuss something else before NS tells us we are both wrong?!

 

P.S. Looks like he beat me to it... :D

I was going to agree with you actually aside from the bit about Saudi. They may clamp down on Al Qaeda (as Al Qaeda are trying to overthrow the monarchy that's not surprising) but they fund extremist Islam worldwide and Al Qaeda feed off that.

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I was going to agree with you actually aside from the bit about Saudi. They may clamp down on Al Qaeda (as Al Qaeda are trying to overthrow the monarchy that's not surprising) but they fund extremist Islam worldwide and Al Qaeda feed off that.

 

Just trying to keep the debate light-hearted! ;)

 

I was talking direct action rather than indirect consequences. But yes, you are definitely right in your assertion about Al Qaeda feed off Saudi's form of Islam being spread around the world.

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5. Can't really comment on that other than say the current care is very excellent.

On that single point, I'd like to substantially differ.  The UK has by far the worst post-discharge care of any NATO nation that I know, if by "current care is very excellent" you mean they don't throw you in a skip then I suppose I can see your point, even the US has better healthcare for their veterans and they routinely chuck their civilians into a skip if they can't afford healthcare.  Critical healthcare for soldiers injured in the line of duty should never have to be funded by charity yet without such charity in the UK it would all fall apart.

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Back on topic though... all the debates on Question Time last night about Scotland's independence were based on half-truths at best on both sides backed up by self-righteous ranting.  If anyone wanted to hear any of the real facts then that programme would have just sent them entirely the wrong way.

 

If they opened the vote up to the entirety of the UK and made it a condition that if the "yes" vote won that George Galloway would be deported to Scotland then I think that would help gather a few percentage points alone...

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Back on topic though... all the debates on Question Time last night about Scotland's independence were based on half-truths at best on both sides backed up by self-righteous ranting.  If anyone wanted to hear any of the real facts then that programme would have just sent them entirely the wrong way.

 

Isn't that basically any topic on any edition of Question Time these days?

 

Russell Brand is on the panel next week. JohnM will be thrilled!

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why are Farage and Galloway not included in the class "comedians"?  

 

but now the Scottish Greens (isn't that oxymoron?) are't happy. see http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-news/7578-scottish-greens-lodge-complaint-with-bbc-over-question-time

 

I really enjoyed QT last night. The most logical panel member was in my view Galloway. I also liked the confidence, certainty and untainted idealism of the young audience, and especially the way that Dimbleby controls the panel. 

 

Ultimately, though, the comedy duo of Angus Robertson and  the harpie Leslie Riddock will look back at the show and realise how much harm they did to Scotland's legitimate quest for independence with their bizarre arguments and stupid assertions.

 

If that's the best they can do, their already slim hopes are doomed, which is a shame, as England, Wales, Northern Ireland, The Isle of Man, the Isle of Lucy, Rockall, sod all and all have so much to gain from the Jocks clearing off for once and for all...especially if they were to take that no-mark Russell Brand with them!

 

 

 

 

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why are Farage and Galloway not included in the class "comedians"?

but now the Scottish Greens (isn't that oxymoron?) are't happy. see http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-news/7578-scottish-greens-lodge-complaint-with-bbc-over-question-time

I really enjoyed QT last night. The most logical panel member was in my view Galloway. I also liked the confidence, certainty and untainted idealism of the young audience, and especially the way that Dimbleby controls the panel.

Ultimately, though, the comedy duo of Angus Robertson and the harpie Leslie Riddock will look back at the show and realise how much harm they did to Scotland's legitimate quest for independence with their bizarre arguments and stupid assertions.

If that's the best they can do, their already slim hopes are doomed, which is a shame, as England, Wales, Northern Ireland, The Isle of Man, the Isle of Lucy, Rockall, sod all and ###### all have so much to gain from the Jocks clearing off for once and for all...especially if they were to take that no-mark Russell Brand with them!

I thought Galloway was restrained and rational last night

I also thought that farage whom I detest had a point regarding the way he was treated and the snp's attitude to that.

The snp guy and the woman in the white hair were a disgrace.

My eyes now automatically gaze at the ceiling when I hear the phrase "in an independent Scotland"

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Unfortunately scientists won't give the pithy soundbite nor the rage inducing non-answering of questions. Plus, unless the subject is in the field of their speciality they could well be as annoying/bigotted/mysoginistic as the person sitting next to them.

That latter point is definitely true. Hopefully it might mean they'd have at least one area of actual knowledge though which would put them well ahead of a lot of QT guests.

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it's not just about knowledge...its about process, logic etc....

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I actually think Dimbleby makes QT pretty much unwatchable.

As for the point about half truths, unfortunately as somebody who will be voting in the referendum the debates drive me mad. This is a very important vote and as usual the discussions are just petty bickering with people refusing to answer normal questions that are important to normal people.

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