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bedlam breakout

the death penalty

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We have come a long way from burning at the stake and hanging drawing and quatering to the abolition of capital punishment.Apart from it being uncivilised, there must have been any innocents hung.No its gone forever

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So we get kicked out of the EU if we bring it in? Hang on a sec i am phoning UKIP with a policy idea....

 

:)

 

Ok back to the issue of the thread:

 

Sure bring it back. While were at it why not bring in torture for suspects being investigated for these sort of crimes where there is no doubt in the Police mind as they are going to get the death penalty anyway....

See you start heading down a slippery slope. 

I'm not in favour of capital punishment but one thing I really hate is the "slippery slope" argument.

 

Applied the opposite way, it runs like "So we can't execute them 'cos that would be cruel and life sentences don't necessarily mean a life spent inside prison, how long is it before murderers are given day release on security tags and not sent to prison at all - it's a slippery slope I tell thee - hang them all before the liberal scumbags get a chance to set them back on the streets again".

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We have come a long way from burning at the stake and hanging drawing and quatering to the abolition of capital punishment.Apart from it being uncivilised, there must have been any innocents hung.No its gone forever

Question; how many innocent people have been killed by murderers released from prison? I dont know the figure but don't they count as innocent lives lost? (Ie had the perpetrator been executed those people would still be alive)

As I say, I don't think I actually support the death sentence but don't buy the argument that murderers lives are sacrosanct and we become as bad as them. I could go out tonight and get stabbed, die but the person who did it is guaranteed to be safe. Why? Is it civilised to say to me 'you can go out but you risk someone stabbing you' but to have the perpetrators life safeguarded? I'm sorry but that isn't fair in my eyes.

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True enough: there is a lot that is not fair in and around the criminal justice system especially in the victim/criminal balance and sadly I don't think much is going to change any time soon.

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I see what you mean. so here's an idea then.  Work out the cost of the crime and if the cost of a prison sentence for it is greater, kill the criminal.  However, If the cost of the penalty is less than the cost of the crime then let the criminal go free.

 

Some US evidence.
A comparison of the annual number of murders in death penalty states and in non-death penalty states from 1990 to 2007 shows that there are consistently more murders in states which use the death penalty. The  percentage difference ranged from a low of 4% in 1990 to a high of 46% in 2006. In other words, in 2006  there were 46% more murders in states with the death penalty than in states which do not use the death  penalty. In 2007, the difference was 42%.
 
 
so by introducing the death penalty, there is a real risk that more innocent people will be killed.

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I'm old enough to remember the death penalty. I was always opposed to it.  As has been said there have been too many mistakes in the past.  The argument is that we now have scientific evidence. The Birmingham "bombers" were put away on false scientific evidence - and would have been hung.  There are cases - Cregan is one - where the death penalty would be the best solution.

I think Peter Sutcliffe should have faced the death penalty for what he did. I don't think such creatures are fit to live. But who draws the line between those who deserve to die and those who don't? Bentley and Craig were involved on the same criminal act.  Bentley who was unarmed and under arrest at the time of the murder hung because he was over 18. Craig who actually shot the copper was under 18 and wasn't hung.  Coppers there at the scene said Bentley said "Let him have it Chris" but it was only the coppers who heard this statement, none of the other witnesses heard it.  The police had (have?) a culture - one of theirs for one of ours.  Bentley paid the price.  There are plenty more examples from the days of the death penalty of anomalies costing someone their life. 

On the whole we're better off without it. And as has been said on here already, some states in the US have it, some don't, the murder rate seems to be similar whether they have it or don't, so it's not a deterrent.  Killing is wrong no matter who does it ( I include abortion and euthenasia in that statement) 

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to keep that "one" child killer in prison for 30 years costs over a million pounds, a syringe however costs pennys - old people, no sorry honest old people die in their homes because they cant afford to put the gas fire on while the money goes in to toasting the toes of absolute ####.

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So why are re offending rates so high today then? Clearly they aren't scared of going back.

Part of the problem is that so many prisoners 'know their rights' thus making it extremely difficult for prison staff to do their jobs for fear of not following the letter of the law.

reoffending rtes are high for a few reasons

 

you'll find that reoffending rates are high for some crime and not for others

for those crimes you'll find tat there are common denominators-drug abuse and the criminal activity associted with it, alcohol, social inadequacy, personality disorders, mental illness and so on. Reoffending amongst tax avoiders, corrupt politician, embezzlers and so on is very low.

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to keep that "one" child killer in prison for 30 years costs over a million pounds, a syringe however costs pennys - old people, no sorry honest old people die in their homes because they cant afford to put the gas fire on while the money goes in to toasting the toes of absolute ####.

This is not true. The legal costs of execution are very high, they might not be the same as a child killer but it certainly isn't pennies. If you read this article http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jun/20/california-death-penalty-execution-costs, it states that each execution in California costs $300m each. Amnesty international points out that the costs regularly outweigh incarceration.

The death penalty is simply revenge, it has no place as a deterrent. I can't imagine that there is anybody about to kill someone thinking "well if I'm caught I'll only get 15 years in prison."

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to keep that "one" child killer in prison for 30 years costs over a million pounds, a syringe however costs pennys - old people, no sorry honest old people die in their homes because they cant afford to put the gas fire on while the money goes in to toasting the toes of absolute ####.

Would you have killed this "child killer"?

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to keep that "one" child killer in prison for 30 years costs over a million pounds, a syringe however costs pennys - old people, no sorry honest old people die in their homes because they cant afford to put the gas fire on while the money goes in to toasting the toes of absolute ####.

yes let's base our justice system on cost that's the mark of a civilised society. In  Fact it's started already with the proposed changes to the legal aid system which I'm sure you are in favour of. How much do you think it costs to fund appeals for instance which we've seen in the US usually go on for years.

old people of which I am one don't die of cold because money is spent keeping people in prison, but becayse the government takes separate decisions on funding.

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those lessons of the past have been learnt, you can not live in the past- if you did what is the point of all the scientific research and advancement techniques used in forensics? we might just as well get regan and carter on the case and get em banged up according to that argument.

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yes let's base our justice system on cost that's the mark of a civilised society. In  Fact it's started already with the proposed changes to the legal aid system which I'm sure you are in favour of. How much do you think it costs to fund appeals for instance which we've seen in the US usually go on for years.

old people of which I am one don't die of cold because money is spent keeping people in prison, but becayse the government takes separate decisions on funding.

funding the welfare of ####

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those lessons of the past have been learnt, you can not live in the past- if you did what is the point of all the scientific research and advancement techniques used in forensics? we might just as well get regan and carter on the case and get em banged up according to that argument.

No, they haven't.  If you think miscarriages of justice are a thing of the past then I have some snake oil I'd like to sell you.  All it needs is one simple human error of misplaced or mis-marked evidence and you could easily have the wrong person identified as a criminal by forensic tests.  The cuts to police forensic teams' budgets and pressure on police to use fewer of their resources means that human error is still a serious risk to justice.

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funding the welfare of ####

I entered this discussion unwillingly

your level of discourse along with some of the comments you've made about people who migt disagree with you-although there are some who quite legitimately consider being called liberal a compliment is the reason fr that unwillingness.

You agree with the death penalty: fine

others don't and have said why

 

Thi debate has been dug up and dusted off more times than I care to remember

 

other members agree with you but have conducted themselves a little better than you.

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No, they haven't.  If you think miscarriages of justice are a thing of the past then I have some snake oil I'd like to sell you.  All it needs is one simple human error of misplaced or mis-marked evidence and you could easily have the wrong person identified as a criminal by forensic tests.  The cuts to police forensic teams' budgets and pressure on police to use fewer of their resources means that human error is still a serious risk to justice.

so cregan, Huntley, the two woolwich terrorists , sutcliffe, etc all could be totally innocent then -sorry my mistake -lets find 10 million quid to keep em comfy just in case.

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I entered this discussion unwillingly

your level of discourse along with some of the comments you've made about people who migt disagree with you-although there are some who quite legitimately consider being called liberal a compliment is the reason fr that unwillingness.

You agree with the death penalty: fine

others don't and have said why

 

Thi debate has been dug up and dusted off more times than I care to remember

 

other members agree with you but have conducted themselves a little better than you.

what comments have I made about "anyone who disagrees with me?"

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so cregan, Huntley, the two woolwich terrorists , sutcliffe, etc all could be totally innocent then -sorry my mistake -lets find 10 million quid to keep em comfy just in case.

 

 

 

I doubt that I'd be able to change your mind on this so won't bother any more.  The death penalty is just wrong in my opinion and, as mentioned by others, is all about vengeance rather than justice, a very nasty path for a country to go down.

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I doubt that I'd be able to change your mind on this so won't bother any more.  The death penalty is just wrong in my opinion and, as mentioned by others, is all about vengeance rather than justice, a very nasty path for a country to go down.

if it was vengeance my friend they would be tortured everyday for a year 1st , its not vengeance its justice and economic sense

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Question; how many innocent people have been killed by murderers released from prison? I dont know the figure but don't they count as innocent lives lost? (Ie had the perpetrator been executed those people would still be alive)

As I say, I don't think I actually support the death sentence but don't buy the argument that murderers lives are sacrosanct and we become as bad as them. I could go out tonight and get stabbed, die but the person who did it is guaranteed to be safe. Why? Is it civilised to say to me 'you can go out but you risk someone stabbing you' but to have the perpetrators life safeguarded? I'm sorry but that isn't fair in my eyes.

I don't think anyone sent to prison is guaranteed to be safe. Notorious killers like Ian Brady and that one who killed those two girls in Soham are often assaulted (or worse) in prison.

 

The other thing is that anyone who committed a murder deemed bad enough to be worthy of execution would certainly get a life term that actually means life.

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No one said that. However, miscarriages of justice do still occur and the point is that by their very nature, we don't know what they are..yet. There are also (potential) denials of justice, somedeathe in police custody are highly controversial and death by dangerous driving penalties seem remarkably low at time. And what about this guy?  see http://m.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/10431051.Killer_jailed_for_life_over_murder_of_Asian_van_driver_in_Easingwold/  Kill him?

 

And this guy? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-22728927

 

According to the ONS, there were 847 deliberate killings in England and Wales in 2001  reducing slightly each year to 552 in 2012.

 

over the same period they reduced from 115 to 90 in Scotland.

 

you can also see more figs here: http://www.murderuk.com/misc_crime_stats.html

 

see here also: http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/hanging1.html

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I don't think anyone sent to prison is guaranteed to be safe. Notorious killers like Ian Brady and that one who killed those two girls in Soham are often assaulted (or worse) in prison.

 

The other thing is that anyone who committed a murder deemed bad enough to be worthy of execution would certainly get a life term that actually means life.

more publicity for them

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yes let's base our justice system on cost that's the mark of a civilised society. In Fact it's started already with the proposed changes to the legal aid system which I'm sure you are in favour of. How much do you think it costs to fund appeals for instance which we've seen in the US usually go on for years.

old people of which I am one don't die of cold because money is spent keeping people in prison, but becayse the government takes separate decisions on funding.

Hang on a sec, we decide which cancer patients (to use just one illness of many) can live or die based on cost, so how come we can ring fence money to look after #### like Cregan? How many old people are sat rotting in a 'care' home as we speak due to no carers because of cuts?

Yet money to keep such people alive and in comfort is beyond question? What on earth is civilised about that? Effectively letting people who live a blameless life rot whilst ensuring criminals who have willingly killed in cold blood are ok.

I think it f******n stinks.

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