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Pottsy

Yorkshire v Lancashire really 'failed' didn't it?

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Cumbria vs Exiles is a far more appealing fixture; it gives the people of Cumbria the chance to see Super League stars and also battle hardens to Exiles ahead of the England game.

Realistically, a team representing the South would consist solely of Broncos players, lads from the Championships who didn't make it at the Broncos and one or two players who progressed beyond Broncos. It'd be more of a high school reunion than a rep game.

Midlands v Northeast is great but it'd realistically be a community level game.

Maybe the Exiles could play Wales or France then?

I think if we're going to have English regions playing, they should be playing other English regions. I think that should be the whole point of the weekend.

Yeah, the South may be mainly Broncos players (but not exclusively), but it may grow.

And yeah the Midlands vs North East would start off as mainly semi-pro and amateurs for now, but again something to grow and something that completes the cycle of games.

NZ v Eng is viable mid season because half out stars are based in the NRL. England Knights would be better staying at home and playing France; flying half of Super League Down Under when there are suitable alternatives closer to home hardly smacks of financial prudence.

I think the idea would be to get all the players in the same training camp and getting that experience of touring together. Getting used to playing at the other side of the world.

In fact, I'd change it to New Zealand Maori vs England Knights actually. That'd be far better for the players to get used to a tough fixture away from home in front of a hostile atmosphere where the result wouldn't be known.

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Hmmm....... SOO was a massive concept when it first started.....NOT.....BUT they stuck with it (OK tweaked it here and there) to make it what it is today.

We bin ideas after two or three years and never give them time to grow.

 

 

After Queensland lost the first two interstate matches in 1980 (35–3 and 17–7, the second game in front of only 1,638 Sydneysiders.

The first two games in 1980 were played under the old rules whereby Queenslanders playing in Sydney represented NSW. The final game of 1980 was the first ever SoO match and was played in front of a sell out crowd of 33,210. Hardly a good example of a slow burning concept.

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I'm sorry but it doesn't follow that the Exiles is a failure but because the Roses clashes got a few hundred more for the final game that they were not a failure.

 

The only thing that can be drawn from the Exiles game is the remarkable parallel that it has created with the Roses clashes. It started at Headingly with a moderate crowd, was expanded to two games that didn't work and then went back down to one game. It was also noted for its lack of intensity and atmosphere. It says a lot that there was no outcry when it was dropped.

 

I'm not a huge fan of the Exiles, I didn't watch it all last night for the reasons many people didn't. However, it actually serves a purpose. England get a warm up game against a team that are better than France or Wales but worse than the Kiwis or the Australians. One of our problems is that we have no preparation for the much higher level of intensity. Our players are up against it already but have to counter the fact that they don't play together often enough against high quality opposition.

 

Obviously, the Exiles is starting to lose its usefulness as the quality of imports decrease. Last night we scored tries we would never score against the Kangaroos and didn't have repeat set after repeat set on their line where we had to try and find a way to score against a well organised defence. That is our problem, playing France, Wales and now the Exiles results in tries where we don't need to unpick a tough defence.

 

The Roses clashes don't even have this usefulness. They will never be Origin, they have had every opportunity in the past to develop into a genuine rivalry and never did. There is also the giant elephant in the room that we have no big clubs in Lancashire anymore. I'm not a Lancastrian despite being told I should be, I'm from Cheshire. Widnes hasn't been in Lancashire for over 40 years and that's not going to get any better. Each generation will get less and less attached the idea that we are really from Lancashire.

 

It's funny how over 10 years on, the negative aspects and obvious flaws are forgotten and all its ills are blamed on the perennial excuses of poor marketing and giving up too early as if time is all something magically needs. Every bad RL crowd is blamed on marketing from the World Cup in 2000 to the failure of London to draw a crowd.

 

I look forward to the thread in 2023 calling for a return of the Exiles concept that was marketed badly and then dropped too early in its previous guise.

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People are absolutely obsessed with this notion that the Exiles are on this downward trajectory: why not just concern ourselves with the here and now, for now? There are plenty of options for strengthening the Exiles. For one, they should have let French players participate from day one and they can still introduce that.

30-10 was not a flogging and Scubby needs to give his head a shake for that one. Almost Lobby-esque.

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How about if Yorkshire win, England play in their white kit in the international series that year and if Lancashire win England play in their red kit?

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I doubt very much that the RFL is going to fly in 30-40 players for one-off games. It's not like it'll be a 'training camp' more a case of hit & run, dir to the travel, jet lag etc.

The only reason a one off Test involving the full England team is looking slightly more viable is that so many of our very best players now play in the NRL.

Anyway, let's not get too bogged down debating the merits of things that aren't actually going to happen.

There'll probably be another Exiles game; it'll probably draw a poor crowd; we'll probably scrap it; and we'll then probably try something else.

Meanwhile the world keeps turning. Get yourself off the computer, out of the house and start living life, Wellsy lad ;)

The city of Kingston Upon Hull is your oyster!

Or, as John Lennon nearly once sang: "Life is what happens whilst Wellsy's busy making rugby league plans..."

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Perhaps it is hard for the players to raise their game and the intensity in front of half empty stadiums?

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The first two games in 1980 were played under the old rules whereby Queenslanders playing in Sydney represented NSW. The final game of 1980 was the first ever SoO match and was played in front of a sell out crowd of 33,210. Hardly a good example of a slow burning concept.

 

It jumped from a crowd of 1,638 to a crowd of 33,000 purely because they persisted with the 3rd game.

 

It's worth pointing out that the biggest ever crowd for a Roses clash was 18,000 in 1900 and the next biggest was 15,000.

 

Before the interstate series became uncompetitive, NSW-QLD clashes used to regularly get 30, 40, 50k attendances. State of Origin didn't come from nowhere.

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People are absolutely obsessed with this notion that the Exiles are on this downward trajectory: why not just concern ourselves with the here and now, for now? There are plenty of options for strengthening the Exiles. For one, they should have let French players participate from day one and they can still introduce that.

30-10 was not a flogging and Scubby needs to give his head a shake for that one. Almost Lobby-esque.

 

I think it's more to do with the history of RL. I think a lot will depend on the World Cup. If it's had no impact and we still fall at the usual hurdle, then I think its 95% sure to be dropped.  

 

30-10 wasn't a flogging but it should have been. This Exiles side didn't look as motivated as previous sides and were defensively quite weak at times.

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IMO part of the problem was that Yorks v Lancs was billed as a competitive trial, but when Yorks stuffed Lancs none of them got picked for GB at the end of the year anyway. I got the impression that David Waite had a say in the selection of both teams as well, which is completely contrary to what happens in Australia.

I also hated that they called it 'County of Origin' or something naff like that. 'War of the Roses' was much better as a name and could have helped in the publicity. Using the word 'origin' over here just reinforces how the games are a pale imitation of Australia's 'origin'.

I agree that the concept was set up to fail, albeit probably by bad planning rather than design.

 

 

But they did call the series of games in the 80's "The Rodstock War of the Roses"  problem was that Mal Reilly then coach of GB said he wasn't going to take any notice of the result when selecting the test team - so the whole idea of it being a test trial was negated. And I believe that Lancashire stopped taking them seriously. I recall watching a Yorkshire side that contained Ellery, Kevin Ward, Paul Newlove, Garry Schofield, David Hobbs and Andy Goodway destroy Lancashire at Central Park in 1989.  I think this was the point when Lancashire packed in taking it seriously. 

Union used to have "Probables v Possibles" trials and I wonder if there is any mileage in a similar idea being tried in RL. After all if we do aspire to be a national game, doesn't  Yorkshire v Lancashire as our premier representative fixture below test level rather undermine that aspiration?

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People are absolutely obsessed with this notion that the Exiles are on this downward trajectory: why not just concern ourselves with the here and now, for now? There are plenty of options for strengthening the Exiles. For one, they should have let French players participate from day one and they can still introduce that.

30-10 was not a flogging and Scubby needs to give his head a shake for that one. Almost Lobby-esque.

Spot on. We shouldn't go for the tried & tested formula of scrapping something that isn't an immediate success.

As you say, it needs tweaking and enhancing, rather than ditching.

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I'm sorry but it doesn't follow that the Exiles is a failure but because the Roses clashes got a few hundred more for the final game that they were not a failure.

The only thing that can be drawn from the Exiles game is the remarkable parallel that it has created with the Roses clashes. It started at Headingly with a moderate crowd, was expanded to two games that didn't work and then went back down to one game. It was also noted for its lack of intensity and atmosphere. It says a lot that there was no outcry when it was dropped.

I'm not a huge fan of the Exiles, I didn't watch it all last night for the reasons many people didn't. However, it actually serves a purpose. England get a warm up game against a team that are better than France or Wales but worse than the Kiwis or the Australians. One of our problems is that we have no preparation for the much higher level of intensity. Our players are up against it already but have to counter the fact that they don't play together often enough against high quality opposition.

Obviously, the Exiles is starting to lose its usefulness as the quality of imports decrease. Last night we scored tries we would never score against the Kangaroos and didn't have repeat set after repeat set on their line where we had to try and find a way to score against a well organised defence. That is our problem, playing France, Wales and now the Exiles results in tries where we don't need to unpick a tough defence.

The Roses clashes don't even have this usefulness. They will never be Origin, they have had every opportunity in the past to develop into a genuine rivalry and never did. There is also the giant elephant in the room that we have no big clubs in Lancashire anymore. I'm not a Lancastrian despite being told I should be, I'm from Cheshire. Widnes hasn't been in Lancashire for over 40 years and that's not going to get any better. Each generation will get less and less attached the idea that we are really from Lancashire.

It's funny how over 10 years on, the negative aspects and obvious flaws are forgotten and all its ills are blamed on the perennial excuses of poor marketing and giving up too early as if time is all something magically needs. Every bad RL crowd is blamed on marketing from the World Cup in 2000 to the failure of London to draw a crowd.

I look forward to the thread in 2023 calling for a return of the Exiles concept that was marketed badly and then dropped too early in its previous guise.

So you couldn't be bothered to attend last night's game (despite it taking place in your beloved county of Cheshire!) and you couldn't even spare the time to watch it on telly, yet you think that the sport ought to schedule its blue chip events according to your preferences.

Perhaps a Cheshire vs The Rest of the World 'Origin' match played in your back garden would be the best way forward?

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I doubt very much that the RFL is going to fly in 30-40 players for one-off games. It's not like it'll be a 'training camp' more a case of hit & run, dir to the travel, jet lag etc.

The only reason a one off Test involving the full England team is looking slightly more viable is that so many of our very best players now play in the NRL.

Maybe two tests then? I'd say it's important that our players learn to play down under as early as possible. It's not like we've got a great record down there!

Anyway, let's not get too bogged down debating the merits of things that aren't actually going to happen.

There'll probably be another Exiles game; it'll probably draw a poor crowd; we'll probably scrap it; and we'll then probably try something else.

Meanwhile the world keeps turning. Get yourself off the computer, out of the house and start living life, Wellsy lad ;)

The city of Kingston Upon Hull is your oyster!

Or, as John Lennon nearly once sang: "Life is what happens whilst Wellsy's busy making rugby league plans..."

I don't have a computer, I use the iPhone! And I'm doing that outside in the Sun whilst being massively hungover ;)

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Maybe two tests then? I'd say it's important that our players learn to play down under as early as possible. It's not like we've got a great record down there!

I don't have a computer, I use the iPhone! And I'm doing that outside in the Sun whilst being massively hungover ;)

Michael, you're pushing 30, you need to put aside these crazy schemes of yours and get out and get yourself a nice girlfriend :)

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So you couldn't be bothered to attend last night's game (despite it taking place in your beloved county of Cheshire!) and you couldn't even spare the time to watch it on telly, yet you think that the sport ought to schedule its blue chip events according to your preferences.

Perhaps a Cheshire vs The Rest of the World 'Origin' match played in your back garden would be the best way forward?

 

I didn't go last night - but then I live in Yorkshire. If the RFL want games like this to be well attended they should play them at a reasonable time on either a Saturday or Sunday.  Anyone who works would find it almost impossible to get from (say) Hull or even Leeds to Warrington in time to watch the game.  In fact no one with any sense tries to travel on Leeds-Manchester stretch of the M62 between 4-00pm and 7-00pm if they have a choice. My choice was to watch it on TV

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I didn't go last night - but then I live in Yorkshire. If the RFL want games like this to be well attended they should play them at a reasonable time on either a Saturday or Sunday. Anyone who works would find it almost impossible to get from (say) Hull or even Leeds to Warrington in time to watch the game. In fact no one with any sense tries to travel on Leeds-Manchester stretch of the M62 between 4-00pm and 7-00pm if they have a choice. My choice was to watch it on TV

Couldn't agree more. I travel from Leeds to watch Salford and it's a nightmare on Friday evenings

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So you couldn't be bothered to attend last night's game (despite it taking place in your beloved county of Cheshire!) and you couldn't even spare the time to watch it on telly, yet you think that the sport ought to schedule its blue chip events according to your preferences.

Perhaps a Cheshire vs The Rest of the World 'Origin' match played in your back garden would be the best way forward?

 

What a brilliant reply. Where did I even indicate that the sport should schedule its blue chip events according to my preferences?

 

I'm an example of somebody who is supposed to support Lancashire because my town used to be in Lancashire 40 years ago. I'm pointing out that I don't, not because I'm boycotting anything but because I'm not from Lancashire. This is unlikely to get better resulting in just as artificial a concept as the Exiles is.

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What a brilliant reply. Where did I even indicate that the sport should schedule its blue chip events according to my preferences?

I'm an example of somebody who is supposed to support Lancashire because my town used to be in Lancashire 40 years ago. I'm pointing out that I don't, not because I'm boycotting anything but because I'm not from Lancashire. This is unlikely to get better resulting in just as artificial a concept as the Exiles is.

Ok, so assuming you're right and we have to write off anyone from Widnes, that still leaves us with a fairly large constituency of people who can still identify themselves with Lancashire. Or are you going to try telling me next that people from Wigan, Oldham, Leigh, Salford etc are all proud 'Greater Mancunians?'

Let's face it, rugby league events are hardly reliant on the patronage of the people of Widnes these days, are they?

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It jumped from a crowd of 1,638 to a crowd of 33,000 purely because they persisted with the 3rd game.

 

It's worth pointing out that the biggest ever crowd for a Roses clash was 18,000 in 1900 and the next biggest was 15,000.

 

Before the interstate series became uncompetitive, NSW-QLD clashes used to regularly get 30, 40, 50k attendances. State of Origin didn't come from nowhere.

I never suggested SoO came from nowhere. It was Yanto who intimated that SoO came to be what it is today from crowds in Sydney that had declined to less than 2,000. The old NSW v QL concept had declined to that but SoO started with a bang (in more ways than one) not a whimper.

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Ok, so assuming you're right and we have to write off anyone from Widnes, that still leaves us with a fairly large constituency of people who can still identify themselves with Lancashire. Or are you going to try telling me next that people from Wigan, Oldham, Leigh, Salford etc are all proud 'Greater Mancunians?'

Let's face it, rugby league events are hardly reliant on the patronage of the people of Widnes these days, are they?

 

It's a fact that none of those places are in Lancashire.

 

Whether or not they are proud Greater Mancunians or not has no effect on whether they are proud Lancastrians. What affinity do people really feel for their county in most of England nowadays? I lived in Ireland where they have a genuine affinity and will often state their county of birth before their town.

 

I made the genuine point that a concept built on historical county boundaries has problems ones that are only likely to get worse as the length of time gets longer. I suspect if you went into a secondary school in Salford, Wigan, St Helens, Warrington etc there would be a large percentage who weren't even aware that their town used to be in Lancashire. These are the people that we will be expecting to get passionate about being from Lancashire in a Roses concept.

 

It's often an admittance of defeat when somebody cannot engage in an actual conversation without resorting to personal insults.

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I never suggested SoO came from nowhere. It was Yanto who intimated that SoO came to be what it is today from crowds in Sydney that had declined to less than 2,000. The old NSW v QL concept had declined to that but SoO started with a bang (in more ways than one) not a whimper.

 

I know, I was referring to the earlier post and agreeing with what you were saying. The implication of Yanto was that it had declined but was persisted with and improved. As you pointed out, it was reinvented based on a genuine greivance and this had an instant effect.

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I know, I was referring to the earlier post and agreeing with what you were saying. The implication of Yanto was that it had declined but was persisted with and improved. As you pointed out, it was reinvented based on a genuine greivance and this had an instant effect.

Sorry, I read it the wrong way.

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