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weloveyouwakefield2

Super League Restructure Discussion (Many Merged Threads)

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Why are people coming out with the 'RL is going to die' nonsense. It's not going to die. It'll be here next year, it'll be here in 5 years and it'll be here in 10 years and the foreseeable future after that.

We don't know if the changes are going to make the game worse or better. We can have logical guesses but at the end of the day we don't know what's going to happen. You can't state a fact about the future. To be honest we don't even know if the changes are definite.

You'd of thought the RFL have sold Wigan, Leeds, Wire and Saints to the RFU for some magic beans judging by the opening few posts on here.

"You'd of thought the RFL have sold Wigan, Leeds, Wire and Saints to the RFU for some magic beans judging by the opening few posts on here."

you know something don't you ;)

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I said this a few months ago, I'm sure you commented. It's a worry

I probably did. It was mental then too.

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Very poor effort form Eddie on this topic. Jon Wells fed him the line, but Eddie totally missed the point. The obvious questions to ask Ralph Rimmer was "How much money do the SL clubs get between them now?", & "How much will they get under the new structure?" & "If there is a difference (ie the top 12 take less than the 14 SL clubs take now), what will happen to the surplus?".

 

Still at least Boots 'n' All was better than Backchat last night. Stevo ranted on about what an absolute mess the game is in (under the current system) and then when Rod said Denis Betts reckons bringing back P&R, then clubs would go bust, Stevo said Denis is right and P&R would be a disaster.

 

So no P&R has left the game in an absolute shambles, and bringing back P&R will be an absolute shambles, but Stevo reckons the RFL should just get on and make a decision.  I wasn't quite sure, which absolute shambles he wanted the RFL to choose!

Two and a half million quid was mentioned, not by Rimmer granted, but John Wells..

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how would this change affect your club?

Difficult to say Chris until we know which system it's going to be. My hope is that the game as a whole will benefit, not just Featherstone Rovers. A revised distribution of funding across the divisions will be a good starting point.

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Wigan, Warrington, Leeds, Saints, Huddersfield and Catalan will probably tighten their grip on the top end of the game (being consistently in the top 7 for the last few years)

Hull, Hull KR and Bradford will go hell for leather after the middle and the clubs below that will slowly lose the ability to compete with the rest

Hey doesn't this sound familiar?

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Would like to know what Community Game Club's have been consulted that Mr.Rimmer kept on mentioning?

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It's like a "workplace consultation" in that the decision has been made and now the poor sods being shafted by it have to decide how to take it

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What we have now is the worst structure we've had, and it is killing pro RL outside SL. One more licensing cycle would have seen crowds fall further to below 1k averages or worse in the second tier. 2015 would have been my last following RL. Its also making lower end SL games unpalatable. I've stopped watching London SL games because there is nothing to play for.

I want to see something new tried which can try and meet the needs of all clubs and enable a healthy pyramid structure which can give hope for all fans. If 3x8 doesnt work we can try something else

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It's like a "workplace consultation" in that the decision has been made and now the poor sods being shafted by it have to decide how to take it

Oh the irony! Who's been shafted by it and how? Championship fans have long been ridiculed and castigated on here for having such views and now, the first time something happens to disturb their cosy little set up the SL fans are at it.

The game obviously can't carry on as it is otherwise these changes wouldn't have been muted in the first place. Cant you see that It's the SL clubs that are leading the way on this presumably because some of them cant hack it financially for much longer? The RFL haven't instigated this and anyone who thinks its being done just to help a few ambitious Championship clubs is frankly deluding themselves.

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Thought that Rimmer came across exceptionally poorly last night. No charisma, no enthusiasm, no real answer to any question. If this is the RFL COO then we really are in trouble. He didn't seem the sort of person capable of running a corner shop.

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He didn't seem the sort of person capable of running a corner shop.

 

Yet he's COO of RFL and people still wonder WHY our game is'nt flourishing? 

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Re-posted from another thread, but very relevant and is more like what is required if the sport is to move forward.
 
What is absolutely clear is that the distribution of funds needs to be more appropriate across the Pro game if we are going to create a stronger, more stable and intense competition that can produce a platform with which clubs can operate successfully and deliver the opportunity to embrace and expand the existing British player talent pool.
 
Taken from the Watkins report.....................
 
"The central television contract is split 16 ways: - each Super League club receives a share, one share is paid to the Championship clubs and one share is received by the RFL (as a contribution towards the Sport’s central costs). In addition, the Super League and the two divisions of the Championships share equally a further £2million per annum. SLE retains all revenues net of direct costs from its Play-offs, its title sponsorship and other commercial income generated by its competition. Historically SLE also shared the profit from the World Club Challenge match each year, although in the past two years this has been retained by the competing clubs".
 
In a nutshell there is £27 Million a year available, plus a further £2 Million, so why not create the following structure?
 
 
Currently I think each SL club gets £1,687,500 per season plus an equal share of the other £2 Million, with £1,687,500 going to the RFL and £1,687,500 being split between all 23 Championship clubs, giving you the 135 Million over the next 5 years.

If the SLE/RFL had anything about them they would restructure the Leagues and then broker a deal that benefited the sport as a whole instead of just the top end.

For example............................

SL 1 - 10 teams getting £1,687,500 each (Plus a further £67,000 from the share of £2 Million)

SL 2/Championship - 10 teams getting 75% of the remaining £9,767,500 (£8,437,500 + £1,330,000)...........so that's £732,562.50 each

Championship 1 - 2 Divisions of 10 Teams (North & South) getting the remaining 25% between them £2,441,875.00...........So that's £106,168.00 each
 
** Please Note - The amounts currently received by Championship and Championship 1 Clubs if far less than allocated above **

Championship 1 clubs would also save on travel costs as it would be regionalised to an extent, also meaning players would be less effected in their professional work lives by their participation in Semi pro sport, plus lots of other common sense benefits and solutions to problems faced by Championship 1 clubs and their players.

Play offs for Championship 1 would be top 4 North & Top 4 South, 8 team format, i.e......1 (N) v 4 (S), 2 (S) v 3 (N) etc, straight knockout, Q-Finals , Semi - Finals & Final with GF Winner getting a home tie in a P & R playoff against Bottom placed Championship Team, Whoever wins either remains in, or joins Championship.

Championship Play offs - Top 6 - GF winner gets promotion to SL

SL Play offs - Top 6 (Similar to current format of 8 but with 6)

Challenge Cup to remain as it currently is.

SL1 & SL2/Championship to have an additional Cup Competition to include all teams in both Leagues with fixtures to be played from 1st April - 31st July

Format - 4 Pools of 5 to be drawn giving 8 fixtures per team per group (Alternate draw to be used - SL club then C/ship club per group), 4 home and 4 away. 
 
** All SL 1 teams in this competition must name a minimum of 9 British born U23's in their 19 man match day squad **
 
The principle is simple, SL1 Clubs by having to name a minimum of 9 British born U23's in their 19 man squad will assist in promoting the development of the home grown talent pool, it also allows senior players to be rested and rotated without having any direct bearing on the SL League table, creates a more balanced competition for the SL2/Championship teams and supporters, whilst also delivering a minimum of 26 intense fixtures (18 League & 8 Cup) for the top 20 teams in the competition.

Top 2 teams at the end of each Group stage to compete in Q-Finals, ie G1 winner v G4 Runner Up etc, Semi- Finals are open Draw and to be played at Neutral Venue, same for the Final.

Championship 1 to have an additional Cup Competition to include all teams in both Leagues played from 1st April - 31st July

Two groups of 5 from North - Two Groups of 5 from South giving 8 fixtures per team per group, 4 home and, 4 away. 

Top 2 teams at the end of each Group stage to compete in Q - Finals, ie G1 winner v G4 Runner Up etc, Semi- Finals are open Draw and to be played at Neutral Venue, same for the Final.

Again, minimum fixtures for any Championship Club in any division is 26.

This would produce a much more balanced competition all round, be more cost effective in many areas, be financially for more viable for most clubs and see revenue being generated and distributed more effectively to the benefit of the game as a whole.

It would also create a competition for 40 teams, open up opportunities for more players to develop at an appropriate level, particularly if SL clubs run Academies at U17s & U19's, Championship clubs ran an U21's reserves competition and Championship 1 clubs just focus on a first grade squad.

SL Clubs, whilst not running U21's/Reserve teams would be granted the opportunity to retain up to 8 players in total at any one time from their academies on intermediate contracts for a maximum of 3 years (if coming out of the U19's) or until they turned 21 years of age. These 8 players would not form part of the first team quota of 30 players, but would train full time and be part of the first team squad as "project players" and could be part of any dual registration agreement between the SL club and a SL2/Championship Club in order to give them regular game time in an environment which will assist their development and they can be monitored.

All too straight forward I know, but it would be a much better option and close the gap between clubs looking to play SL1 from SL2/Championship status.

So based on this year it could potentially look something like this...............

Super League

Wigan Warriors
Warrington Wolves
St Helens
Catalan Dragons
Leeds Rhinos
Hull FC
Huddersfield Giants
Wakefield Wildcats
Bradford Bulls
Hull KR

Championship

Salford City Reds
London Broncos
Castleford Tigers
Widnes Vikings
Featherstone
Leigh Centurions
Halifax
Sheffield
Batley
Whitehaven

Championship 1 - North

Dewsbury
Oldham
Rochdale
Hunslet
York
Barrow
Workington
Keighley
Gateshead
Swinton

Championship 1 - South

London Skolars
Crusaders
South Wales
Doncaster
Oxford
Hemel Hempstead
Gloucester
Northampton (Example)
Coventry (Example)
Nottingham (Example)

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What we have now is the worst structure we've had, and it is killing pro RL outside SL. One more licensing cycle would have seen crowds fall further to below 1k averages or worse in the second tier. 2015 would have been my last following RL. Its also making lower end SL games unpalatable. I've stopped watching London SL games because there is nothing to play for.

I want to see something new tried which can try and meet the needs of all clubs and enable a healthy pyramid structure which can give hope for all fans. If 3x8 doesnt work we can try something else

  If 3x8 doesnt work we can try something else.

 

Just not good enough Can't go round "trying" things just to see if they work. There has to be some basis  and for me and the hundreds and thousands ( and growing)  who follow the game at the elite level both SuperLeague and licencing are sound . It may be at the end of the season when al the sums are done, that club incomes are down, but we will have to wait and see. No point in trying to jump to conclusions mid term after one of the coldest and wettest springs on record. The long term trend of attendances and viewers  is clearly up That is why Featherstone and Leigh and no doubt other have been working so hard to achieved SL status through licencing.  The fans of these aspirant clubs would have been sold short and would still be standing on uncovered cinder terraces had it nor been for the fact they have to meet the licencing requirements.

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Thought that Rimmer came across exceptionally poorly last night. No charisma, no enthusiasm, no real answer to any question. If this is the RFL COO then we really are in trouble. He didn't seem the sort of person capable of running a corner shop.

 

It is fair to say that you are a balanced and impartial observer?

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Apologies if this has already been stated on here but as Martyn Sadler says this week, Huddersfield and Catalans are both top 8 sides yet produced a very poor game.

These things happen and why we can't accept this as just one of those things that will happen regardless of how many teams we have. Even in the hallowed 10 team comp this would have happened.

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Rugby league obviously won't die if we move to 3x8 however ridiculous an idea it is. The game's survived in spite of itself since 1895 after all.

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I think there's an element of Wood and Rimmer believing they know better than any of us what's best for the game and they'll do what THEY want whether we like it or not. There's also an element of both Wood and Rimmer searching for some kind of legacy in the game, they seem to want to revolutionise everything with new fangled systems that they beleive they'll be remembered and revered for over the next century ie. 'The Woods/Rimmer System' that saved the game in the early 21st century.

Obviously the perilous state of the SL clubs is also a driving factor and there is without doubt there is the same feel as 1995 when clubs were culled from the top flight and others were elevated without merit or reason. We are in real danger of throwing the baby out with the bath water in this relentless search for an innovation that will rescue Rugby League. There is no reason to totally reinvent the wheel though, we don't have to totally regress back to the old P&R system but a modern version of it might move us toward a more secure game and might also be acceptable to everyone involved, Broadcasters, Fans and Administrators.

I've said before on here:

Create a parachute payment to relegated clubs, the money is to stabilise the club not sign players

Have an experienced RFL staff that would supplement the administrational team of any newly promoted club

Promoted clubs to have a 1 season exemption from relegation, if they finish 14th then 13the gets relegated. This would allow a club to acclimatise in SL (See Widnes last season and this)

As with Premier League football, fans might have to accept that promotion isn't a one time deal it's a process that might take 5 or 6 years and you may be promoted/relegated/promoted/relegated and promoted again before finding your feet in the higher level. Soccer has a number of clubs in the midst of that exact process at any one time, they learn and grow from each season in the process and eventually acclimatise or fall out of the process but do so without imploding.

It's not rocket science it really isn't!

The way the RFL (Wood/Rimmer) are going about things brings an Old Brian Clough quote to mind.

"I sit down with the player, we discuss the issue for 10 minutes then decide I was right"

Substitute the RFLs consultation process with the fans for the player.

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Oh the irony! Who's been shafted by it and how? Championship fans have long been ridiculed and castigated on here for having such views and now, the first time something happens to disturb their cosy little set up the SL fans are at it.

What irony? The licensing system was the best thing to happen to championship clubs and their fans, it gives a clear & followable path into the top flight that isn't predicated on an all or nothing approach to the game, where a club can build within its means to achieve promotion rather than bankrupting itself on the hopes of winning a roll of the dice.

As a fan of a club that's seen both sides I'll take licensing over any other system yet put forward!

The game obviously can't carry on as it is otherwise these changes wouldn't have been muted in the first place. Cant you see that It's the SL clubs that are leading the way on this presumably because some of them cant hack it financially for much longer? The RFL haven't instigated this and anyone who thinks its being done just to help a few ambitious Championship clubs is frankly deluding themselves.

No the game can't continue as it is, but this isn't the answer by any measure if logic.

Moreover the present system is yielding genuine results on and off the pitch for many clubs, including those at the top of the championship - who will now have all their hard work over the last few years undone in a stroke

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Merged the 'boots n all' thread with this.

 

Same old same old...

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Since when? I wish they would stop moving the boundaries. Ulverston used to be in Lancashire along with Barrow and then in 1974 they were moved in to the new County of Cumbria and I haven't heard of any further boundary changes. All current players born in the Barrow in Furness area will have all been born in Cumbria.

County boundaries were never moved. Just the council areas.

There have been many - far too many - council boundary changes since 1974. Mostly in Wales where the whole situation has been a dog's breakfast.

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since the advent of licensing clubs have been able to develop more young players through their academies, a great example are london broncos. they were always filled to the gunwales with imports but now the majority of their first team squad is home grown, my own club widnes have had the chance to build a side rather than throw good money at over the hill antipodeans just to stay up,

and the best case for licensing was the dessie johnson led barrow who deliberately cheated on the cap and made illegal payments to players just to finish as champions, in the dark distant past they would have been promoted to the top flight, taking the place of another team who may well have played by the rules, but were denied a place in the top flight by flagrant cheating from another club.

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1,The licensing system was the best thing to happen to championship clubs and their fans,

2,it gives a clear & followable path into the top flight that isn't predicated on an all or nothing approach to the game, where a club can build within its means to achieve promotion rather than bankrupting itself on the hopes of winning a roll of the dice.

1, I think fans of Championship clubs are the best judge of that, and many if not the majority of them don't think licensing has been the best thing to happen to them.

2, Being promoted based on winning games or being relegated for not winning games is a much clearer path to SL and from it. Clubs have gone bust pre and post licensing. The argument about bankrupting themselves to achieve promotion doesn't really stack up. Leigh nearly went belly up last year and this year, and there isn't any promotion. Salford, Wakefield and Bradford went the same way...and this was with licensing.

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If it helps, I will have some good news for you all on LoveRugbyLeague.com tomorrow...

 

:)

what be this?

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