Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

l'angelo mysterioso

Harry Sunderland

233 posts in this topic

I think it is wrong that there is a trophy named in his honour

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

why?

Because of reasons. That's why.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Isn't the MoM of the grand final awarded the Harry Sunderland medal?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Isn't the MoM of the grand final awarded the Harry Sunderland medal?

the Harry Sunderland Trophy is awarded to the man-of-the-match in the European Super League Grand Final. In addition, the Harry Sunderland Medal is the award given to the best Australian player in each home Ashes series.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Isn't the MoM of the grand final awarded the Harry Sunderland medal?

in Aus, in the UK it's a trophy

and when Jason Robinson collected it, the irony was perfect

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

correct

and when Jasn Robinson collected it, the irony was perfect

think I get your point, was he racist?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

think I get your point, was he racist?

Roy Francis is a legend in rugby lesgue

He was at Wigan when Sunderland took over as manager

He was forced to leave the club because as Geoffrey Moorhouse says in 'A People's Game'- silly title I know; "he had no time for blacks"

Of course that kind of racism was more acceptable then, but nevertheless it goes against everything we hold dear in the values of the game. There are more worthy people that we could dedicate the trophy/medal to

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Roy Francis is a legend in rugby lesgue

He was at Wigan when Sunderland took over as manager

He was forced to leave the club because as Geoffrey Moorhouse says in 'A People's Game'- silly title I know; "he had no time for blacks"

Of course that kind of racism was more acceptable then, but nevertheless it goes against everything we hold dear in the values of the game. There are more worthy people that we could dedicate the trophy/medal to

In that case you have a valid reason.Have you just read this recently?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In that case you have a valid reason.Have you just read this recently?

Yes

I've read the book many times

Edit: I quoted directly from the book

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In that case you have a valid reason.Have you just read this recently?

I think there are other references to his attitudes to black players elsewhere

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

and when Jason Robinson collected it, the irony was perfect

Leon Pryce then, too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Leon Pryce then, too.

absolutely

 

 

rugby league already had a tradition of accepting people of different races at the time, that was why Francis was playing for Wigan in the first race. For Francis to have to leave because of the colour of his skin was scandalous even then.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd have to know more about him before agreeing he should be erased from history. Was he he racist or is it possible that he was taken out of context? (sort of)

Very different times and people often said stuff like that without really thinking about it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On the plus side of the ledger he was credited for being at the forefront of the rise of the game in Queensland, and later played a huge role in developing and introducing the sport in France.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd have to know more about him before agreeing he should be erased from history. Was he he racist or is it possible that he was taken out of context? (sort of)

Very different times and people often said stuff like that without really thinking about it.

who said anything about him being erased from history

it wasn't what he said it was what he did.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On the plus side of the ledger he was credited for being at the forefront of the rise of the game in Queensland, and later played a huge role in developing and introducing the sport in France.

and that stays on the record

it doesn't buy him the right to be a racist and for a prestigious award given to outstanding players no matter what their race

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

and that stays on the record

it doesn't buy him the right to be a racist and for a prestigious award given to outstanding players no matter what their race

I'm not condoning anything he did in that regard, but neither do I have a "guilt by proxy" complex that you seem to have. Many people held those views at that time and he was from Australia which, in my experience, is still one of the most racist countries in the world - certainly far in excess of the UK - so god knows what it was like in those days.

I'm sure if you dig hard enough you'll find skeletons in the closets of Lance Todd or Dally Messenger too, things which are considered unsavoury today but were acceptable at the time. Sometimes its best just to let sleeping dogs lie.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

who said anything about him being erased from history

it wasn't what he said it was what he did.

Well if the award was sacked he would slowly dissappear so its effectively the same thing.

I don't know what he did - what was it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I'm not condoning anything he did in that regard, but neither do I have a "guilt by proxy" complex that you seem to have. Many people held those views at that time and he was from Australia which, in my experience, is still one of the most racist countries in the world - certainly far in excess of the UK - so god knows what it was like in those days.

I'm sure if you dig hard enough you'll find skeletons in the closets of Lance Todd or Dally Messenger too, things which are considered unsavoury today but were acceptable at the time. Sometimes its best just to let sleeping dogs lie.

Indeed. I'd imagine that most of the great players / coaches / administrators of the distant past were racist / homophobic/ snobbish / misogynist / xenophobic / religiously bigotted etc by today's standards. Should we have no memorials to people of that era?

 

Not to forget that it's hard to say how we'll all be viewed by a society that might exist in say 60 years' time. I daresay that most of us would probably be summed up as "He probably wasn't a bad bloke but he had ~ist views though to be fair they were commonly held in his day".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mungo Jerry once sang 'have a drink, have a drive' unacceptable today but everyone thought nothing of it at the time. It doesn't mean everyone was pro drink driving.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Indeed. I'd imagine that most of the great players / coaches / administrators of the distant past were racist / homophobic/ snobbish / misogynist / xenophobic / religiously bigotted etc by today's standards. Should we have no memorials to people of that era?

 

Not to forget that it's hard to say how we'll all be viewed by a society that might exist in say 60 years' time. I daresay that most of us would probably be summed up as "He probably wasn't a bad bloke but he had ~ist views though to be fair they were commonly held in his day".

but the point is that his actions were contrary to the fundamentals of the sport

 

and yet he has a major trophy named after him when there are more deserving people who are representative of those fundamentals

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

but the point is that his actions were contrary to the fundamentals of the sport

 

and yet he has a major trophy named after him when there are more deserving people who are representative of those fundamentals

I think he is honoured for his achievements / efforts not because he was representative.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I'm not condoning anything he did in that regard, but neither do I have a "guilt by proxy" complex that you seem to have. Many people held those views at that time and he was from Australia which, in my experience, is still one of the most racist countries in the world - certainly far in excess of the UK - so god knows what it was like in those days.

I'm sure if you dig hard enough you'll find skeletons in the closets of Lance Todd or Dally Messenger too, things which are considered unsavoury today but were acceptable at the time. Sometimes its best just to let sleeping dogs lie.

I don't have a guilt by proxy complex, whatever one of those is

 

my point is that Sunderland's attitudes-ones that he acted upon were against the ethos of the sport even then and that there are better people to dedicate a trophy to.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.