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Marto

Fans to be consulted on Super League structure changes

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I don't want to see that again

It will set RL in this country back a decade

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The divide between SL and Championship funding (Sky/TV Money) has to be addressed, by creating 2 SL Divisions of 10 this could be achieved giving SL2 Teams a realistic chance of being in a position player and infrastructure wise to cope far better with promotion to SL1.

 

SL 1 - 10 teams getting £1,687,500 each (Plus a further £67,000 from the share of £2 Million)

SL 2/Championship - 10 teams getting 75% of the remaining £9,767,500 (£8,437,500 + £1,330,000)...........so that's £732,562.50 each

 

Championship 1 - 2 Divisions of 10 Teams (North & South) getting the remaining 25% between them £2,441,875.00...........So that's £106,168.00 each

 

At least that way you can create an opportunity for 20 full time clubs and a SL2 competition that can deliver clubs able to cope far better with a P & R system than previous and a regionalised semi pro competition in which each club receives far more than any Championship 1 club does currently from the system.

 

Unfortunately, for the greater good of the game it needs certain existing SL clubs to accept that in order to take two steps forward long term they need to take one step back short term.

 

But now you've just created a divide between SL2/Championship and Championship 1 to replace the current one between Super League and the Championship. I don't there is any way in which Championship clubs could bridge that gap.

And we're fooling ourselves if we think competitions based largely on M62-land can support 20 fulltime clubs.

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We moan when we haven't a say we moan when we do. The 8x8x8 will kill the game off at many levels. Tis farcical. I van't believe it is even being considered.

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But now you've just created a divide between SL2/Championship and Championship 1 to replace the current one between Super League and the Championship. I don't there is any way in which Championship clubs could bridge that gap.

And we're fooling ourselves if we think competitions based largely on M62-land can support 20 fulltime clubs.

 

Relative to the current money a Championship 1 club gets it is a significant improvement and will allow them to operate in a better manner on a number of fronts, plus the regional structure will reduce the impact on travel costs, player availabilty etc.

 

I doubt, considering the infrastructure required within a club to meet criteria for SL1 when moving up from SL2/Championship, Championship 1 clubs would need to the to be in a position to meet equivalently stringent criteria to move from Championship 1 up to SL2/Championship, they also only have 1 team to cater for in Championship 1, where as Clubs in SL2/Championship would have a first grade and U23's.

 

A well run Championship 1 club would comfortably make the transition providing it was proactive early in identifying players for the following season and spent wisely given the considerable playing budget it would then have.

 

SL1 gates would average upwards of 7,000 and I think that would be a suitable figure to make it viable to all 10 SL1 clubs, some would obviously get regular gates well in advance of that figure, but overall 7,000+ for all fixtures as a minimum in SL1 would make it work IMHO.

 

If you say average crowds for SL2 would be 3500 - 5000 given the likely interest in a strong, intense and balanced competition and the fact they have an opportunity through the 8 match Cup competition to take on SL1 teams, I think SL1 & 2 would be more than capable of housing 20 Full time teams.

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Lets do the maths for SL2/Championship clubs

 

 

13 Home fixtures averaging a gate of 3,500 = 45,500 spectators through the gate each season.

 

50% as full paying adults @ £15 per head = £341,250.00

50% as Concessions @ £5 per head = £113,750.00

 

Total home gate revenue of £455,000.00

 

TV Money £732,562.50 + £455,000.00 = £1,187,562.50

 

You can then take in to account merchandise, commercial opportunities, match day hospitality revenue, sponsorship etc etc, giving you a stable foundation to build a solid club if managed appropriately on and off the field in preparation to compete at a higher level should the opportunity present itself.

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SL1 gates would average upwards of 7,000

So you're advocating a system that would see crowds at the top level decrease.

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So you're advocating a system that would see crowds at the top level decrease.

 

Lost me now, "average upwards of 7,000" is nothing more than a statement to suggest as a minimum, given the crowds over the past seasons in SL, the very least you can expect are gates of 7,000 + within the top tier of the competition.

 

Further supported by "some would obviously get regular gates well in advance of that figure, but overall 7,000+ for all fixtures as a minimum in SL1 would make it work IMHO".

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The OP was raised and discussed 26 June in the 'If you could ask Nigel Wood 1 question, what would it be?' thread - I did email the RFL about it - the most relevant part to the OP and posts here...

 

"Please be aware that whilst the RFL is happy to listen to the views of the RLSA, they are a non-representative, unelected body: the views aired at next week’s meeting will carry no more or any less weight than those put forward by individuals directly to their clubs or the RFL.

The ultimate decision on league structure will be decided by the RFL’s independent Board of Directors, whose job it is to find a solution that is in the best interests of the whole sport – clearly whatever they decide will not please everybody!"

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I don't want to see that again

It will set RL in this country back a decade

Getting rid of it has set the game back 20 years. If your club hadnt stayed up I doubt youd be happy stuck in the CC

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^ You are a complete buffoon.

 

Lost me now, "average upwards of 7,000" is nothing more than a statement to suggest as a minimum, given the crowds over the past seasons in SL, the very least you can expect are gates of 7,000 + within the top tier of the competition.

 

Further supported by "some would obviously get regular gates well in advance of that figure, but overall 7,000+ for all fixtures as a minimum in SL1 would make it work IMHO".

The season average this year is close to 9,000, and that is significantly down on the last few years. In fact you'd have to go back to 2003 to find an average crowd below 8,000. So in effect, a competition with an average of 'upwards of 7,000' would literally be setting the sport back 10 years.

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No they don't. It is only deeply unpopular with a few.  But not as many as those of us who don't like , support, want  automatic single-season points-based P and R

So how would you decide which SL clubs are relegated to get the number down to 12 or 10? Is that not going to be decided by a points based relegation system?

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^ You are a complete buffoon.

 

The season average this year is close to 9,000, and that is significantly down on the last few years. In fact you'd have to go back to 2003 to find an average crowd below 8,000. So in effect, a competition with an average of 'upwards of 7,000' would literally be setting the sport back 10 years.

 

I think you will find that my figures of 7,000 minimum were to highlight the worst case scenario and outline that if that was the case it would still be a viable competition. Again I think you will find that I went on to state that clubs would get gates well in advance of that, so it is more likely that they will be far better off when operating with gates of 9K, 10K, or in some instances 15K plus, making it a very strong financial concept.

 

Curb your tone fella, its a discussion forum for debate.

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The OP was raised and discussed 26 June in the 'If you could ask Nigel Wood 1 question, what would it be?' thread - I did email the RFL about it - the most relevant part to the OP and posts here...

 

"Please be aware that whilst the RFL is happy to listen to the views of the RLSA, they are a non-representative, unelected body: the views aired at next week’s meeting will carry no more or any less weight than those put forward by individuals directly to their clubs or the RFL.

The ultimate decision on league structure will be decided by the RFL’s independent Board of Directors, whose job it is to find a solution that is in the best interests of the whole sport – clearly whatever they decide will not please everybody!"

So, basically, it's a talking shop.

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Letting the lunatics take over the asylum?

 

Interesting. ;)

Are you referring to rugby league fans and/or supporters trusts here?

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Aren't they the same thing?

 

Aren't they the same thing?

Not quite. Many Supporters Trust members tend to be RL  fans who are looking to have a say or exert some kind of influence on their club, and in many cases look to have a share in the ownership, and at places like Bramley, Hunslet and Rochdale, for example, actually own the club. Football has embraced the concept  much more than RL but it  is growing in RL, witness developments at Hemel Stags and Mancunians. But the meeting organised by Supporters Direct is I understand open to all RL fans, whether members of Supporters Trusts or not.   

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Are you referring to rugby league fans and/or supporters trusts here?

 

The fans Cliff, but it was also a light hearted joke too...

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The fans Cliff, but it was also a light hearted joke too...

Fair enough Gav. I was probably being a bit over sensitive and missed the smiley. There are a few in the game, perhaps more so than in football, who see Supporters Trusts as a kind of "reds under the beds" socialist fifth column. Equally there are those who see fans as having greater ownership, or a democratic vote as ok for the very small, but irrelevant to larger clubs, to which my answer is usually a loud Barcelona or Bayern Munich! ;)  Anyway look forward to my next visit to the Knights. 

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Fair enough Gav. I was probably being a bit over sensitive and missed the smiley. There are a few in the game, perhaps more so than in football, who see Supporters Trusts as a kind of "reds under the beds" socialist fifth column. Equally there are those who see fans as having greater ownership, or a democratic vote as ok for the very small, but irrelevant to larger clubs, to which my answer is usually a loud Barcelona or Bayern Munich! ;)  Anyway look forward to my next visit to the Knights. 

 

I think its Supporter's Trusts are a great way to go for a lot of clubs, a mate of mine applied for a job at the RFL to help develop them a few years ago so I got to learn a fair bit while helping him research the role.

 

I look forward to having a beer with you soon Cliff, either at the Knights or the Akkies! :)

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Lets do the maths for Championship clubs

 

13 Home fixtures averaging a gate of 3,500 = 45,500 spectators through the gate each season.

 

50% as full paying adults @ £15 per head = £341,250.00

50% as Concessions @ £5 per head = £113,750.00

 

Total home gate revenue of £455,000.00

 

TV Money £732,562.50 + £455,000.00 = £1,187,562.50

 

You can then take in to account merchandise, commercial opportunities, match day hospitality revenue, sponsorship etc etc, giving you a stable foundation to build a solid club if managed appropriately on and off the field in preparation to compete at a higher level should the opportunity present itself.

 

Sorry you were insulted by the poster above.

 

As you invited discussion could you note that the 2 bottom SL clubs and the 10 championship clubs below them averaged just over 2,000 fans last season.

 

Your gate money is optimistic.

 

I don't understand your SKY money because AFAIK Sky will only pay £180K to championship clubs in the proposed set up. If you revise your figures to these realities then SKY & gate money for Championship clubs = £440K

 

Of course add other revenues but the clubs turnovers are likely to be under £1,000,000 a year which they are now.

 

Superleague clubs turnovers are in the range of £3,200,000 to £6,500,000.

 

In reality the gulf is massive

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"Please be aware that whilst the RFL is happy to listen to the views of the RLSA(A)........The ultimate decision on league structure will be decided by the RFL’s independent Board of Directors(B)".

 

Back on topic, what price A influencing B more than C the big superleague clubs?

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So how would you decide which SL clubs are relegated to get the number down to 12 or 10? Is that not going to be decided by a points based relegation system?

 

Why would anyone want to do anything that daft? 

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I think you are wrong on this. Everyone i know who is interested in RL wants a return to P&R, whether or not they are a fan of a SL club or a Championship club.

Where is you evidence up suggest that the majority of people don't want a return to single season P&R?

 

 I certainly  don't want a return to P and R. I am interested in Rugby League, though I do doubt that you know me. 

 

The flaw in the argument is that I do not need to provide evidence. The original assertion, a bit like yours, is the one that need suppotting by evidence.

 

in post #8, Lobby boldly asserted, without a shred of evidenceClubs and fans outside SL hate the current system! It is deeply unpopular - far more so than any system prior to 2008.. I dont recall a massive hatred of automatic P&R. The only person I can think of who didnt like it was Stevo, but then he is obsessed by the Australian system.

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Back on topic, what price A influencing B more than C the big superleague clubs?

 

C will have their way or cause a big stink if they don't - IMO

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