The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)

[thundergaz]

Mate - I can see a time - a good number of years into the future, admittedly - where professional sport is only played at the highest level (apart from soccer, probably). It's driven by the customer's refusal to accept nothing but constant success. On top of that the Government and the RFL are driving standards up at a time when income is falling, leaving directors to fund gaps from their own pockets.

Sport's different to other industries. You need an opposition. Look after the losers because, without them, there can be no winners.

Spot on Richie mate.

[The Parksider]

I think the DR system as saved a few champ clubs from going under. I could be wrong but I think a few in the champ are in financial decline.

If money comes from fans at Championship clubs then all you need is the numbers of fans who used to support the championship clubs and the number that do now. From 2,500 a club down to 1,800 and down again to 1,100 i.e. for many gates have more than halved.

Financial decline has been reflected by the closure of York and Rochdale and the near closure of Hunslet because there was no interest and no money. Coming back as a "supporters trust" club is laudable but just a method to prevent closure that still haunts such clubs.

I think the astute Griff has it spot on. If you don't support the championship who will be left to replace the SL clubs who go bust. The return of P & R IMHO won't revitalise the championship clubs but will be a good way of making sure the way is smoothed for a return to 12 SL clubs, and ensuring that anyone with any money is not stifled from chucking it into the top 24 clubs.

The key question for me remains will the RFL carry on with "standards" under the new arrangements because it looks like most clubs can't afford them. I'm sure however your not at all wrong.

[Griff]

There'll always be standards to be met. Maybe RFL driven or government driven.

Edited July 22, 2013 by Griff

[Bomb Jack]

In fairness, I think they should choose the 12 Clubs for 2015 by a licensing process.

 

Otherwise you'll have certain teams signing all and sundry to stay up rather than putting their money into their exsisting infastructure.

 

That's the fairest way to me.

 

Plus Widnes would be a shoe-in. 

[Griff]

In fairness, I think they should choose the 12 Clubs for 2015 by a licensing process.

 

Otherwise you'll have certain teams signing all and sundry to stay up rather than putting their money into their exsisting infastructure.

 

That's the fairest way to me.

 

Plus Widnes would be a shoe-in. 

It's shoo-in.

Hope that was tongue in cheek.

[Bomb Jack]

It's shoo-in.

Hope that was tongue in cheek.

 

Nope, a spelling mistake i'm afraid.

 

It's not an every day term is it? 

[Griff]

Nope, a spelling mistake i'm afraid.

 

It's not an every day term is it? 

It's becoming one. But I meant the whole post. Surely you canNOT be serious ....

[Scubby]

I haven't taken that much notice of the re-structure TBH and have just let the debate fall out. But am I right that the following would happen:

 

The team at the bottom of 12x1 could be W0 L23 by the time of the  split and then by joined by a club W23 L0 at the top of 12x2 but they go to 0pts. The W0 L23 team can then go onto win the second tier competition by winning say 6 out of 9 games? This would be an overall W6 L26.

 

The club in 12x2 (W23 L0) then wins 3 out of 7 but misses the play-offs (top four). Finishes with a season of W26 L4 and doesn't even get play-off football for its efforts at the end of the season?

 

They part waves destined to meet again in a groundhog day scenario every season. Nice.

Edited July 25, 2013 by Scubby

[thundergaz]

I haven't taken that much notice of the re-structure TBH and have just let the debate fall out. But am I right that the following would happen:

The team at the bottom of 12x1 could be W0 L23 by the time of the split and then by joined by a club W23 L0 at the top of 12x2 but they go to 0pts. The W0 L23 team can then go onto win the second tier competition by winning say 6 out of 9 games? This would be an overall W6 L26.

The club in 12x2 (W23 L0) then wins 3 out of 7 but misses the play-offs (top four). Finishes with a season of W26 L4 and doesn't even get play-off football for its efforts at the end of the season?

They part waves destined to meet again in a groundhog day scenario every season. Nice.

Don't know to be honest but if SL2 is a full time league which by the looks of it that's what the RFL want is 2 full time leagues I can't see any team in any of the leagues going unbeaten all season it will be too competetive I reckon.

[gingerjon]

I haven't taken that much notice of the re-structure TBH and have just let the debate fall out. But am I right that the following would happen:

 

The team at the bottom of 12x1 could be W0 L23 by the time of the  split and then by joined by a club W23 L0 at the top of 12x2 but they go to 0pts. The W0 L23 team can then go onto win the second tier competition by winning say 6 out of 9 games? This would be an overall W6 L26.

 

The club in 12x2 (W23 L0) then wins 3 out of 7 but misses the play-offs (top four). Finishes with a season of W26 L4 and doesn't even get play-off football for its efforts at the end of the season?

 

They part waves destined to meet again in a groundhog day scenario every season. Nice.

 

There is a partial way round this but it may fry the brains of all but the most loyal.

 

In some handball tournaments (this may happen in other sports too, I don't know) you often have two group stages.  What happens is that the second group is a merger of the qualifiers from two first round groups.  Teams carry forward the points gained against the teams that qualified and are now in the second round with them and then add to their tally by playing the teams from the other group.

 

Something like that might be possible.

[Scubby]

There is a partial way round this but it may fry the brains of all but the most loyal.

 

In some handball tournaments (this may happen in other sports too, I don't know) you often have two group stages.  What happens is that the second group is a merger of the qualifiers from two first round groups.  Teams carry forward the points gained against the teams that qualified and are now in the second round with them and then add to their tally by playing the teams from the other group.

 

Something like that might be possible.

 

Jon, you are getting too clever for your own good. This could send some of the posters on here over the edge. However, I think the plan is for the blocks of 8s to play each other once which will skew this somewhat.

 

I genuinely think you could have a club like Castleford being 3x champions of Tier 2 but having only won around 30% of total games over that period. If that is the case will their fans even want to turn up to the finals - seeing as they have qualified back to SL after, say, 5 of the 7 extra 3x8s games.

Edited July 25, 2013 by Scubby

[Just to be clear]

In some handball tournaments (this may happen in other sports too, I don't know) you often have two group stages.  What happens is that the second group is a merger of the qualifiers from two first round groups.  Teams carry forward the points gained against the teams that qualified and are now in the second round with them and then add to their tally by playing the teams from the other group.

Just to be clear, because I am lost with all those groups and rounds, are you saying "just carry forward results against common opponents, just like they do in the super 6s and super 8s in cricket world cups"?

If we are worrying about the need to counter the minuscule possibility of a winless team going undefeated and an undefeated team going winless we might as well stop playing the game altogether because freak occurrences can happen in any sport, and we are not nor do not have to be an exception. Once you start designing structures based on preventing unlikely extremes they are going to fail because they are disproportionately biased.

Currently we could have the top of Super League go undefeated with 54 points (W27 L0), teams 2nd to 4th all finish on 46 points (W23 L4), and the team in 5th finish on 19 points (W9 L15 D1). Yet everyone still thinks the top 5 playoff the fairest system even though it would let Leeds win the Grand Final against an undefeated Wigan after winning only a third of their games all season.

Even now the gulf between the top of the Championship and bottom of Super League is not so great to make that defeated v undefeated situation likely, let alone after the increased funding to top Championship clubs being proposed. The bigger problem would be the first 23 games because and the gap between top and bottom of the Championship due to the different levels of funding.

But to be on the safe side, we should make a rule permanently banning Leeds for the playoffs just in case.

[Griff]

Don't know to be honest but if SL2 is a full time league which by the looks of it that's what the RFL want is 2 full time leagues I can't see any team in any of the leagues going unbeaten all season it will be too competetive I reckon.

How is SL2 going to be full time on an extra £100,000ish a year ?

[Scubby]

Just to be clear, because I am lost with all those groups and rounds, are you saying "just carry forward results against common opponents, just like they do in the super 6s and super 8s in cricket world cups"?

If we are worrying about the need to counter the minuscule possibility of a winless team going undefeated and an undefeated team going winless we might as well stop playing the game altogether because freak occurrences can happen in any sport, and we are not nor do not have to be an exception. Once you start designing structures based on preventing unlikely extremes they are going to fail because they are disproportionately biased.

Currently we could have the top of Super League go undefeated with 54 points (W27 L0), teams 2nd to 4th all finish on 46 points (W23 L4), and the team in 5th finish on 19 points (W9 L15 D1). Yet everyone still thinks the top 5 playoff the fairest system even though it would let Leeds win the Grand Final against an undefeated Wigan after winning only a third of their games all season.

Even now the gulf between the top of the Championship and bottom of Super League is not so great to make that defeated v undefeated situation likely, let alone after the increased funding to top Championship clubs being proposed. The bigger problem would be the first 23 games because and the gap between top and bottom of the Championship due to the different levels of funding.

But to be on the safe side, we should make a rule permanently banning Leeds for the playoffs just in case.

 

It is not the case. That was an extreme example. What is more likely to happen is that a club like Wakefield, Castleford or London will realise with 5 games of the 1x12 to go that they will drop into 2x8. Therefore, they will play kids and reserve graders for the last few fixtures giving their first choice players a break.

 

They will then go into 2x8 and win their first 3/4 games - guaranteeing that they are back in SL next year by finishing in the top 4 of 8. Then, in effect, it is job done and the season is over. Will they be that bothered about winning 2x8 when they have guaranteed full funding back in SL with 4/5 weeks of the season still to go? Not sure. They will probably be busy signing players and planning for SL next year and how to spend their full funding.

 

If people think this won't turn into the cynical example shown above then they are in for a shock. The fans will also soon twig and attendances could fall away for the last third of the season (against what this radical change is trying to be achieved).

Edited July 25, 2013 by Scubby

[thundergaz]

How is SL2 going to be full time on an extra £100,000ish a year ?

I thought that's what the RFL were working towards Richie.. But if you are correct then their will only be 5 max full time clubs in SL2. If that is the case then them 5 will be fighting it out for the 4 places year in year out.

Edited July 25, 2013 by thundergaz

[Pottsy]

I thought that's what the RFL were working towards Richie.. But if you are correct then their will only be 5 max full time clubs in SL2. If that is the case then them 5 will be fighting it out for the 4 places year in year out.

Bingo. 2x10 provides the opportunity to fund 20 full time clubs. Do the maths.

[gingerjon]

Jon, you are getting too clever for your own good.

 

It is a risk I run.

 

I wasn't being entirely serious but it's a possible solution to a potential problem.

[Griff]

I thought that's what the RFL were working towards Richie.. But if you are correct then their will only be 5 max full time clubs in SL2. If that is the case then them 5 will be fighting it out for the 4 places year in year out.

I can't see there being as many as five. I'd like to see some closing of the gap between SL1 and what may become SL2 at which point we could have a sensible P+R system. However, the gap really needs to be closed by folk through the gate and I can't see that happening.

[thundergaz]

I can't see there being as many as five. I'd like to see some closing of the gap between SL1 and what may become SL2 at which point we could have a sensible P+R system. However, the gap really needs to be closed by folk through the gate and I can't see that happening.

I would of thought their would be 5 Richie. The 2 SL clubs that come down, us, fax then either yourselves, Toulouse or Leigh. But agree totally that the gap needs closing maybe full time might help a bit towards this factor.

[Griff]

I would of thought their would be 5 Richie. The 2 SL clubs that come down, us, fax then either yourselves, Toulouse or Leigh. But agree totally that the gap needs closing maybe full time might help a bit towards this factor.

You could be right - lot of water to flow under the bridge before 2015.

[Keith T]

You could be right - lot of water to flow under the bridge before 2015.

From the figures quoted in League Weekly then the top four clubs in SL2 will certainly have the best chance of going full-time. The figures were for the top four - £650k, £600k, £550k and £500k. From 5th down to 12th the figures are £200k down to £150k depending on finishing position. The £450k imbalance between top and 5th both working to the same salary cap merely widens the gap between the top four and the rest.

[Griff]

From the figures quoted in League Weekly then the top four clubs in SL2 will certainly have the best chance of going full-time. The figures were for the top four - £650k, £600k, £550k and £500k. From 5th down to 12th the figures are £200k down to £150k depending on finishing position. The £450k imbalance between top and 5th both working to the same salary cap merely widens the gap between the top four and the rest.

Thereby creating another divide.

Great stuff. All this is well thought out, innit ?

[The Parksider]

I would of thought their would be 5 Richie. The 2 SL clubs that come down, us, fax then either yourselves, Toulouse or Leigh.

The two relegated clubs may implode financially as mr. Sadler suggests.

Toulouse are reported as being financially stuffed if they end up in SL2

Sheffield's crowds are so low even £650K will see them hundreds of thousands off the mark.

Leigh reckon they're skint and can't manage full second tier cap now.

It may only be Fev and Fax who can stretch to full time

[Ponterover]

The two relegated clubs may implode financially as mr. Sadler suggests.

Toulouse are reported as being financially stuffed if they end up in SL2

Sheffield's crowds are so low even £650K will see them hundreds of thousands off the mark.

Leigh reckon they're skint and can't manage full second tier cap now.

It may only be Fev and Fax who can stretch to full time

 

Mr Sadler does appear to be a doom monger on this subject, one would hope that the parachute payment will prevent the clubs imploding.

 

If it's true that Toulouse are in SL2, then they must have been party to the discussions, they will know their finances better than any of us keyboard warriors

 

Sheffield probably won't manage it, although they are the leading team and already do it with far less money than Fev and Fax.

 

Leigh do appear to have better backing than recently, but full time may not be possible straight away.

 

Fev and Fax are almost certain to go near fulltime, if not actually full time.

[robinson2]

Mr Sadler does appear to be a doom monger on this subject, one would hope that the parachute payment will prevent the clubs imploding.

 

If it's true that Toulouse are in SL2, then they must have been party to the discussions, they will know their finances better than any of us keyboard warriors

 

Sheffield probably won't manage it, although they are the leading team and already do it with far less money than Fev and Fax.

 

Leigh do appear to have better backing than recently, but full time may not be possible straight away.

 

Fev and Fax are almost certain to go near fulltime, if not actually full time.

If we're to believe those in the know, Toulouse were sold a place in the top tier without any mention of widespread restucturing.