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The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)

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Liabilities are only negative if you can't afford to pay them, and that is the point I was making. The club, like any other club, needs to ensure that it can continue to do so, in the face of the increased financial pressure that the new structure will bring.

Thanks Martyn, that clears that up a bit. The same goes for all member clubs then?  I still think that it was unfair to focus on Featherstone's worse case scenario.

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Hi Parky, either Martyn is lying or our board is telling fibs. http://featherstonerovers.net/article.php?id=11501

 

Well done Mr Sadler for highlighting our so called financial problems, it just shows how peeved he his with the recent developments which makes me soo happy :P

 

Didn't get chance to respond yesterday but yes I am looking forward to proper on field Rugby debates. 

 

Hi Ian,

 

The accounts show BOTH massive "liabilities" and also a small "profit". Good old accountants they are so confusing.

 

A bit like KPMG who really confused me about how downgrading SL clubs into a second tier will increase attendances significantly. The do have odd ways of looking at money. Bit like the bankers I suppose.

 

All along I have been waiting for Griff to comment as he has a great handle on accounts and knows Rovers accounts inside out. We did discuss in the summer if Mr. Nahaboos input may put the clubs land assets at risk and I think something had been done about this.

 

Anyway "Calling Griff" where are you??

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No they didn't. They lost to Salford in the Championship grand final and both went in on a licence. I think it was when they expanded SL to 14 maybe.

Except that appearing in the Grand Final was one of the criteria for securing a licence at that time.  And prior to that point they had obtained promotion from each division by means of winning the respective leagues.

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The likes of Huddersfield, St.Helens, Wigan and Leeds would have had the stadium and structures anyway with or without the licensing system which was an absolute joke by the end anyway

 

Joke or not your right about clubs being the master of their own destiny's rather than any "system" under P & R clubs went down because they were skint and up because they were rich enough. Under licensing clubs went out because they were skint and came in when they were rich enough.

 

The most "bankrupt" thing is arguing between P&R and licensing. Neither are really relevant when the record is clear money is the only mechanism relevant. This is the main reason 2x12=3x8 is irrelevant IMVHO.

 

KPMG know it's about money hence they said loads of fans will flood to the games to justify their suggestions. I've two years to wait now to see if that was disingenuous or not!

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For me this is the nub of it. I have been a fan of RL for 23 years, and as a southerner watched with great interest the creation of SL. It had such promise. Yet this promise, one of a pan European competition with such stellar names as PSG (who had wonderful promise - and yes, they did- I lived in Paris at the time and can vouch for the attention they attracted - they were simply managed poorly) and the hope for a greater footprint in the UK, has not been actualised. Instead, the sport has, if anything, regressed in terms of print profile, sponsorship, innovation, and certainly a southern awareness (another bugbear of mine - people making assumptions about how much RL is known down south - it is simply virtually non-existent in the lives and day to day experience of many here). Admittedly,the sport has 'regressed' in many respects because of the manner in which football and RU have improved their standing within broader UK culture in this time period. Nevertheless, what we are being left with is a sport that is becoming increasingly marginalized, and unfortunately, more culturally located than ever in certain northern communities. And please, do not remind me of the growth of the community game in the south. I could just as easily quote other sports, largely considered to be non mainstream ones, that have high participation levels in the south and yet still do not register in terms of national consciousness. Actually, I will give a couple of examples: American football and handball. So in sum, the sport of RL seems to be regressing. And a particularly harsh or cynical view of this might put forward the idea that it could end up abou as culturally relevant in this country as an emerging sport such as handball.

I think you may be confusing actual expansion - it is an actual fact that rugby league is now played in more places than ever before - with perception of expansion.  You don't have to go down south to find an almost total ignorance of rugby league.  Just try Liverpool or Manchester, or come to work with me here in St Helens for a day!

 

Soccer is everywhere, in part because kicking a ball is introduced to children almost as soon as they can walk, but in part because it is in the media to a mind numbing degree every day of the year.  RU isn't that far behind.  If RL was in the media to the same degree then even if it wasn't played in your area you would be aware of it.  Being aware of something and something actually happening are two different things, surely?

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So in your humble opinion Martyn , do Featherstone Rovers deserve a chance at Super League ?

I would be delighted to see Featherstone having a crack at Super League, as long as the club can retain its financial stability.

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fev balance sheet will reflect work on ground which will see capacity increase, income streams increase via rent on business units. also invested in centre of excellence, which wil reep its own rewards.

so overall our deficit shows value for money. wonde if

other clubs deficits show the same investment gains.

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I think you may be confusing actual expansion - it is an actual fact that rugby league is now played in more places than ever before - with perception of expansion. You don't have to go down south to find an almost total ignorance of rugby league. Just try Liverpool or Manchester, or come to work with me here in St Helens for a day!

Soccer is everywhere, in part because kicking a ball is introduced to children almost as soon as they can walk, but in part because it is in the media to a mind numbing degree every day of the year. RU isn't that far behind. If RL was in the media to the same degree then even if it wasn't played in your area you would be aware of it. Being aware of something and something actually happening are two different things, surely?

I would agree with that. I am unaware of anyone locally playing squash or badminton but am pretty certain that there are people playing it round here.

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Thanks Martyn, that clears that up a bit. The same goes for all member clubs then?  I still think that it was unfair to focus on Featherstone's worse case scenario.

The reason for focussing on Featherstone is that they own the freehold of their stadium, and all credit to them for doing so.

 

Their immediate rivals - Halifax, Leigh and Sheffield - don't.

 

So if those clubs were to go into administration it wouldn't affect their stadia, whereas if the same fate befell Featherstone, their stadium would be under threat.

 

Sadly we have seen many clubs over the years lose their stadium as their major asset, and I would hate to see the same thing happen to Featherstone.

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Thanks Martyn, that clears that up a bit. The same goes for all member clubs then?  I still think that it was unfair to focus on Featherstone's worse case scenario.

As I understand it the club doesn't have liabilities or loans wih any banks Ian. It doesn't even have an overdraft and pays it's wages and VAT on time and certainly under the current stewardship has never asked the RFL for it's monies to be paid early,

As mentioned many times the club owns it's own stadium, various educational premises, state of the art training and conditioning facilities and 18 acres of land. Every penny the club generates goes directly to the club. Barring Leeds I'm not sure if there are any other clubs that have this facility.

Stangely, none of this is focussed upon????

 

I'm not saying everyone should be loud hailing rovers achievements either. Just some balance.

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Strange how you did not focus on our £10,046 and only chose to show negative aspects

 

This cannot be allowed to go unchallenged.  The forum is replete with posts congratulating Featherstone on their ambition, solid achievements and the progress they are making.

 

Read post #3580 again.

 

For example.

the truth is that it has actually made very good progress in the licensing era, not least in developing the stadium.....The lodged accounts don't, of course, show the details of these liabilities, and I'm sure the club is on top of them

 

It it wrong for posters, including me, who have seen things go wrong at a number of clubs in the past, to caution care and offer advice on how to avoid disappointment.? No its not.

 

As for censorship on TRL, that is a complete and utter nonsense. 

 

One thing, though, comes over clearly. Whenever ANYONE mentions Featherstone even in a positive way, you wade in defensively, crying "unfair"  and playing the victim card., and then you wonder why you get such robust responses.

 

 It really is time in my view that you remove the shoulder chips.

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Hi Ian,

 

The accounts show BOTH massive "liabilities" and also a small "profit". Good old accountants they are so confusing.

 

A bit like KPMG who really confused me about how downgrading SL clubs into a second tier will increase attendances significantly. The do have odd ways of looking at money. Bit like the bankers I suppose.

 

All along I have been waiting for Griff to comment as he has a great handle on accounts and knows Rovers accounts inside out. We did discuss in the summer if Mr. Nahaboos input may put the clubs land assets at risk and I think something had been done about this.

 

Anyway "Calling Griff" where are you??

I know that Griff is obsessed with our accounts, lol but I also know that he understands them better than me and you as it turns out.

 

I think the key here is Mark Campbell, we are lucky enough to have a chairman who really does have our interests at heat.  He as put so much into the club that I believe he would have guarded against any risk with land assets.

 

With any risk and with any club there is always a risk.

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The reason for focussing on Featherstone is that they own the freehold of their stadium, and all credit to them for doing so.

 

Their immediate rivals - Halifax, Leigh and Sheffield - don't.

 

So if those clubs were to go into administration it wouldn't affect their stadia, whereas if the same fate befell Featherstone, their stadium would be under threat.

 

Sadly we have seen many clubs over the years lose their stadium as their major asset, and I would hate to see the same thing happen to Featherstone.

In our favour though all the bar and refreshment takings along with the other money making from facilities goes directly back to the club, has Robin pointed out.  This gives us a distinct advantage financially over our rivals.

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Actually the profit was £10,046, according to the accounts lodged at Companies House, which are open to all to view.

And well done to the club.

But the club still has the liabilities that I referred to earlier in this thread. There is nothing inconsistent in making a profit but also having significant liabilities, as any accountant will tell you.

The club has been very well run over the last five years, which I fully acknowledge, and the main hope for everybody is that it continues to be so.

Martyn, all clubs have liabilities. Featherstones are pretty insignificant when compared to the likes of Wigan, St. Helens, hull etc yet there is no talk of impeding doom from you about any other clubs. I'm sure featherstone will face struggles along the way just like pretty much any other club, maybe like the long list of clubs already in super league.

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KPMG know it's about money hence they said loads of fans will flood to the games to justify their suggestions. I've two years to wait now to see if that was disingenuous or not!

 

I stated in a previous post that KPMG's consultancy is frankly a waste time and resources.

Edited by GeordieSaint

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And John, as a former moderator on the Rovers, i have known you moderate that forum, as this is the reason i stopped doing it, i banned a person off the forum an within 2 hours you re-instated him

 

The current club forum moderators don't seem to have a problem with the way the site functions. If they do, they can raise any issues with me and I'm happy to discuss them.

 

The TotalRL general Terms & Conditions of Use apply to all sections of the forum, though. If any moderator wants to ban anyone from any part of the TotalRL forum, that person would have to be in breach of those Terms & Conditions. If they weren't, then I'd reinstate them. Disagreeing with a moderator is not against the Terms & Conditions.

 

Ultimately, yes, it is my overall responsibility as Site Admin to oversee all sections of the forum and ensure that the site's rules are applied fairly but, and I would hope all the current moderators of all our club based forums would back me up on this, I do not interfere in the way they moderate their forums so long as they are applying the general Terms & Conditions of Use of TotalRL.

 

There have been circumstances in which people I have banned under the T&Cs from the forums as a whole for repeated breaches of the rules have been reinstated to individual forums at the request of a local club moderator, so these things can work both ways (though I doubt you would ever acknowledge that and are probably unaware of the circumstances anyway because I try not to make a song and dance about such things). Give and take, tolerance and understanding, etc, all essential qualities in a good moderator, and incredibly hard to find in my experience.

 

It's a tough job, being Site Admin on here, you can't please everyone all the time, but I stand by the actions I have taken in this thread to remove a lot of personalised drivel that has threatened to drag the debate off topic and into an ever-decreasing catfight amongst individuals who want to grind an axe rather than debate the subject under discussion.

 

For anyone who seriously cannot stand the way TotalRL is moderated, the internet is a big place and other forums are available.

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This cannot be allowed to go unchallenged.  The forum is replete with posts congratulating Featherstone on their ambition, solid achievements and the progress they are making.

 

Read post #3580 again.

 

For example.

the truth is that it has actually made very good progress in the licensing era, not least in developing the stadium.....The lodged accounts don't, of course, show the details of these liabilities, and I'm sure the club is on top of them

 

It it wrong for posters, including me, who have seen things go wrong at a number of clubs in the past, to caution care and offer advice on how to avoid disappointment.? No its not.

 

As for censorship on TRL, that is a complete and utter nonsense. 

 

One thing, though, comes over clearly. Whenever ANYONE mentions Featherstone even in a positive way, you wade in defensively, crying "unfair"  and playing the victim card., and then you wonder why you get such robust responses.

 

 It really is time in my view that you remove the shoulder chips.

Morning John, first of all thanks for being positive on the game even though you disagree with the new structure.

 

As for your comments on the above, as usual I totally disagree.

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In our favour though all the bar and refreshment takings along with the other money making from facilities goes directly back to the club, has Robin pointed out.  This gives us a distinct advantage financially over our rivals.

Absolutely, and you would be foolish to put any of that at risk.

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Martyn, all clubs have liabilities. Featherstones are pretty insignificant when compared to the likes of Wigan, St. Helens, hull etc yet there is no talk of impeding doom from you about any other clubs. I'm sure featherstone will face struggles along the way just like pretty much any other club, maybe like the long list of clubs already in super league.

For a club to own its own stadium gives it a tremendous advantage, but also a tremendous responsibility.

 

I keep making the point that a club that owns its own stadium can't afford to go into administration, whereas it's not such a disaster for a club that doesn't.

 

So any club that owns its own stadium has to tread very carefully.

 

Featherstone is one of a reduced number of clubs in this position, but if the club is going to convert from employing part-time players to employing full-time ones, the potential risks should be obvious to anyone.

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The current club forum moderators don't seem to have a problem with the way the site functions. If they do, they can raise any issues with me and I'm happy to discuss them.

 

The TotalRL general Terms & Conditions of Use apply to all sections of the forum, though. If any moderator wants to ban anyone from any part of the TotalRL forum, that person would have to be in breach of those Terms & Conditions. If they weren't, then I'd reinstate them. Disagreeing with a moderator is not against the Terms & Conditions.

 

Ultimately, yes, it is my overall responsibility as Site Admin to oversee all sections of the forum and ensure that the site's rules are applied fairly but, and I would hope all the current moderators of all our club based forums would back me up on this, I do not interfere in the way they moderate their forums so long as they are applying the general Terms & Conditions of Use of TotalRL.

 

There have been circumstances in which people I have banned under the T&Cs from the forums as a whole for repeated breaches of the rules have been reinstated to individual forums at the request of a local club moderator, so these things can work both ways (though I doubt you would ever acknowledge that and are probably unaware of the circumstances anyway because I try not to make a song and dance about such things). Give and take, tolerance and understanding, etc, all essential qualities in a good moderator, and incredibly hard to find in my experience.

 

It's a tough job, being Site Admin on here, you can't please everyone all the time, but I stand by the actions I have taken in this thread to remove a lot of personalised drivel that has threatened to drag the debate off topic and into an ever-decreasing catfight amongst individuals who want to grind an axe rather than debate the subject under discussion.

 

For anyone who seriously cannot stand the way TotalRL is moderated, the internet is a big place and other forums are available.

In my opinion, a nice way of putting what I say goes.  I reported a post to you back in July where some members were off topic slating Featherstone people.  Compared to my recent posts I have done nothing wrong but guess what mine were removed.

 

I suppose if you want a one way opinion on the state of the game then people like me can use other forums, after all that's exactly what you want us to do.

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For a club to own its own stadium gives it a tremendous advantage, but also a tremendous responsibility.

 

I keep making the point that a club that owns its own stadium can't afford to go into administration, whereas it's not such a disaster for a club that doesn't.

 

So any club that owns its own stadium has to tread very carefully.

 

Absolutely.  I'm sure if anyone were to discuss this with, say, Saints management they would say the same thing.  Owning your own stadium is great in theory but it also comes along with the headache of making the stadium pay for itself.

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Martyn,

Would any club who rent a stadium, be automatically allowed to continue using it after entering administration ?

Administration means you cannot pay your bills, which would almost certainly include ground rent.

Would the owners of a rented ground simply say OK carry on using it and risk further loss of revenue ?

Would you say that the position Wakefield are in regarding who owns Belle Vue is preferrable to what we see at Featherstone ?

I am confident that the present Rovers BOD have got their fingers firmly on the pulse and would politely suggest they do not need your advice.

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im pretty sure rovers posted a profit last year

 

Indeed they did ..... was Zak Hardaker involved in that ?  Impossible to say from the filed accounts.

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