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The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)

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In my mind the game is only as strong as all of it's parts regardless of where they sit at any given time and in RL we do not have 14 fit players so what you need are mechanisms for recovery and improvement, use and sharing of best practice. At this given point in time, there are too many weakened teams being relied on to keep getting up off the canvas. Under those circumstances you are in danger of killing them off altogether as more and more subscribers get fed being taken advantage of. The trick is to have a stable Super League of professional RL clubs capable of competing with one another without going bust.

 

Indeed it is, so I invite you good sir to set out how we get there?

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Indeed it is, so I invite you good sir to set out how we get there?

Like you i can see the sense ( and fairness ) to all that, but i also am interested to learn how it could be funded.

Incidently having just read the squad thread and seen the strength of the squads, I'm not suprised the annual cost exceeds £3 million.

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The impression it is a closed shop comes from Les Cats, Gateshead and PSG getting in, whilst the likes of Hunslet were excluded.  This shows that selection is happening based on new markets, it does not follow that the right decision will always be made.  PSG was half-baked, Gateshead were supposed to run on a shoe string compared to everyone else, and Crusaders were a bad bet from the off (I posted along the sames lines myself).

 

I do not think it was "pick and choose whose face fits, and kick out whose doesn't... in our opinion", merely a poor judgement call.

 

The only two that have come along that look reasonable are Catalans and Toulouse.  We can either say no to these markets, and concentrate solely on England.  Otherwise, they can work out the best way of assessing them.  Halifax have a strong case, with the licensing approach.

 

Wellsey, I also agree that starting a team from scratch is hugely ambitious.  An understanding of the local market and local power brokers is essential the presence of a commercially orientated club there already is irreplaceable for this.  I also think that dropping Toulouse in at short notice is setting them up for failure, in contrast to the time Les Catalans were granted.

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Catalans finished rock bottom in their first SL season and a club above them, not in a relegation spot were demoted because Catalans were exempted from relegation. So you stop spouting rubbish.

You quoted widnes, it was not

You quote cas was unfairly relegated which again was agreed what would happen

It looks like you can't be arsed checking the facts and you are quite clearly making things up!

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You lose 5 clubs plus cats source there own tv deal with Toulouse, that creates £7.8m, extra 200k to 8 uk SL1 clubs and 700k per club in sl2 - no extra funding required

700k won't fund a full time team a ten year old could work that out!

Also to be successful you need a full time setup try closer to 6million!

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Bob - I can see what you are saying however there is the likelihood that we will lose parts of our existing markets by not having replacing existing participants because fans/subscribers of clubs in the towns being denied any access to SL, will eventuall give up. I got rid of sky sports largely due to the reason but will renew my subs when p and r returns. I would like the RFL to expand (by bringing in French clubs asap) and consolidate. With luck some of the non heartland clubs will get promoted to SL in the near future thus bringing new markets but keeping the heartlands happy

So you dont want to watch clubs other than leigh.....but if SL moves away from licensing you will be quite happy to watch eeerrrmmm the exact same club's ( not leigh)

Very odd......

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700k won't fund a full time team a ten year old could work that out!

Also to be successful you need a full time setup try closer to 6million!

A squad of 20 could be funded for £1M per year on the assumption that each player is on £25k per year (this is SL2!) and the NI and pension contributions doubled that estimate per person (likely to be a tad overestimated). Of course this does not account for off the pitch stuff and academy but shows what can be done at the bottom end of the funding spectrum. Therefore for about a million you could easily put a small full time squad on the park.

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So you dont want to watch clubs other than leigh.....but if SL moves away from licensing you will be quite happy to watch eeerrrmmm the exact same club's ( not leigh)

Very odd......

Its not odd at all. The fact that we might go up keeps me happy and interested enough.

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Its not odd at all. The fact that we might go up keeps me happy and interested enough.

Sorry you will have to spell this one out. ....

You don't want to watch SL as leigh don't play in it but if next season the structure changes you will be happy to watch SL with leigh not in it?

Also which aussies will come over for 25k??

Which relegated clubs players will be happy to drop to 25k earnings?

You also aren't factoring in coaches and other staff?

Who will operate the training facilities cook the food....all the other jobs associated with Full time training!

You open a facility FT you need the staff!

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Its not odd at all. The fact that we might go up keeps me happy and interested enough.

And should you get the chance , good luck to you, But in all truth does having to face squads like those posted ( on the squad thread ) not fill you with a bit of doubt about the abillity to compete

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Looking at the Salfords, HKR , London's, Widnes, Cas wakeys and Bradford's I would fancy my chances with a FT squad with them in a mid eight

Even more so with 4 of them in SL2!

Do you think a promoted championship club in soccer benchmarks itself agains Manu man c or chelsea etc??

Some folk on here really worry me

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A squad of 20 could be funded for £1M per year on the assumption that each player is on £25k per year (this is SL2!) and the NI and pension contributions doubled that estimate per person (likely to be a tad overestimated). Of course this does not account for off the pitch stuff and academy but shows what can be done at the bottom end of the funding spectrum. Therefore for about a million you could easily put a small full time squad on the park.

 

You can indeed Sir.

 

After 22 bruising rounds in CC, do you think this thin squad, including part time players taking a chance on full time, will be competitive with larger, better paid squads, of seasoned professionals, hardened by Superleague Rugby?

 

Just asking!

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Looking at the Salfords, HKR , London's, Widnes, Cas wakeys and Bradford's I would fancy my chances with a FT squad with them in a mid eight.....

 

London I can understand, as well as a skint Bradford, but let's be honest Craiq, those two are set to be underdogs (if they even make it)  in the middle 8 anyway?

 

Indeed Featherstone and Sheffield who both comfortably did the double over you last season are set to be the ones fancying their chances, not Leigh.

 

Take care over boasting about beating Widnes (10 SL wins last year inc wins over Wire and Saints) or HKR (They did Wire, Saints, Fartown and Leeds) Cas did Leeds and Wigan, and Wakey got 10 SL wins, but no big scalps. They have however found some money and have been signing players to strengthen their side for the next couple of years. Who have Leigh signed for their assault on SL BTW??

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Looking at the Salfords, HKR , London's, Widnes, Cas wakeys and Bradford's I would fancy my chances with a FT squad with them in a mid eight

Even more so with 4 of them in SL2!

Do you think a promoted championship club in soccer benchmarks itself agains Manu man c or chelsea etc??

Some folk on here really worry me

Well don't let me be one of them,  I care diddly about football, and comparison to football in any way means nothing to me. The reason i was asking you was because i worry that a season of tonkins ( should that happen ) could have a very poor effect on future years at the club.

You on the other hand seem to concentrate solely on your own club with what seem to me very inflated claims, and based on other clubs being willing to donate some of their earnings. I don't condemn you for this It's quite common in Rugby League, But  I am old enough to realise that what is best for one club is not necessarily what the game needs.

 Some people out there worry me a bit as well, Thats the ones who seem to believe the game is not about money like any other.

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I seem to be going round in circles with a few, so I'm going to put that to one side now.

The issues we face in restructuring the league are that we don't seem to know what direction we want to go in. We don't have an end goal. We keep going one way or another and upsetting everyone whilst at the same time creating a horrible feel with supporters of the game as things are not being made clear. The system is unfair. People are unhappy.

What most people I've encountered want is a clear and fair system. I don't think I've ever spoken to a casual sports fan who has thought dropping in random teams for no good reason has been a good idea (that doesn't mean it isn't, but it doesn't paint a good image of the game).

The need for expansion is important, but it needs to be done fairly. That to me doesn't mean thy have to come through the Championship. There's more than one way to skin a cat. The Championships are there for British clubs to progress, but start asking a club to fly a part-time squad during the week to another country and talk of "fairness" goes out the window.

So we are left with a European competition that needs to look at different ways of entry if it wants to keep P&R in to satisfy the numerous hungry British clubs (which I think is a good thing all these clubs want to work their way in to the top league and we should find an open way to let them, P&R being one way) whilst at the same time look to admit new clubs from new countries (ie. French clubs).

Catalans entry in 2006 was a successful model that has never been followed. There were still a few issues with it that needed clarity to satisfy those who thought they were done an injustice because of this, but all in all it's difficult to argue that Catalans inclusion into SL has been a bad thing.

So how do we balance the two?

Personally, and people might not agree with this, I think we need to (metaphorically) break SL up. Other European competitions in other sports often have a certain allocation of clubs attributed to each country/governing body and that country/governing body picks what clubs go into that competition (correct me if I'm wrong). In football, there are four PL clubs that are entered into the Champions League. The FA decides that certain positions qualify, and could decide to change that, if they wanted to, to top 3 and the FA Cup winners if they wished. In rugby union, the Heineken Cup has certain teams from RFU, from WRU, SRU, etc. Those countries decide how they pick who enters.

So what I'm suggesting is that we make a clear distinction about how many British teams we want in SL and how many French teams, and that be decided by a European RL commission. For the sake of argument, I'm going to say it is decided as 10 British clubs and 2 French clubs. The 10 British clubs are then decided by the RFL and 2 French clubs by the FFR13. If the FFR13 decide that they want to franchise their two spots (presumably to Toulouse and Catalans), that's their choice. It's their two spots. They may find later on that Toulouse are failing and Avignon are a better bet. That guarantee that they have two French spots may be enough to help drive TV negotiations.

On the flip side, the RFL may decide that they want P&R for their 10 clubs, so the worst performing British club is replaced by the best performing Championship club. It's open, straightforward, and their choice. What happens with the French is if no concern to the British clubs in the British RL system. They need to finish above the British clubs or get relegated into the next level of the British tier.

Later negotiations of the European RL commission may see an increase in the number of French clubs or British clubs. It may see a separation of the British clubs into English (RFL) and Welsh (WRL), although all Welsh clubs are playing in RFL competitions currently which is why I've left it as British.

The Long Term Plan would be to see enough clubs enter outside of the RFL to start their own league (whether that be just a French league or a combined nations league) where they are secure franchises, leaving an RFL elite competition that can clearly promote and relegate sides. If a rich man wants to parachute an expansion side in, they can negotiate with the ERLC and find a place in that European league.

Personally, I think that's the only way you'll be able to keep P&R and expand into other nations in a clear cut "everyone knows the score" manner. None of this "exempt from relegation for two years" when we know they're only saying that because they know licensing will kick in so effectively giving them a franchise during the P&R era. If they want to expand into the French market, give the French more of a say.

I gladly await someone to rip into some parts of that as I have most likely overlooked some important facts (and opinions), but it can always be tweaked.

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You quoted widnes, it was not

You quote cas was unfairly relegated which again was agreed what would happen

It looks like you can't be arsed checking the facts and you are quite clearly making things up!

Fact 1. Catalans finished bottom.

Fact 2. A club that did not finish bottom were relegated.

I never said it wasn't agreed. I said it was wrong and unfair and a reward for failure.

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Like you i can see the sense ( and fairness ) to all that, but i also am interested to learn how it could be funded.

 

 

Everyone agrees clubs should spend to their means.

 

The spending has been two fold - all the spending to meet licensing requirements, and the subsequent attempt to spend another £1.65 to hit the salary cap.

 

Result £68,000,000 debt. I haven't got the figures but at some point there is a balance. If you are one business you can easily calculate that balance of income and expenditure.

 

Across 10,12,14 clubs that's harder but to get to that balance SL has to cut losing clubs. They have suggested cutting 2, the more likely balance is to cut 4. After that budgets on peripheral items need cutting, things that licensing called for. Cut academies, cut marketing cut whatever - I don't  have the figures.

 

Even cut the salary cap to £1.5M. Then look at how the SKY money is distributed to enable income to meet expenditure, radical yes, but clubs need each other.

 

Then look at how to increase income. Look at only having one club in certain areas that can grow off the demise of their neighbours. A 10 club SL could accommodate this this. Bring Toulouse in for their alleged wealth.

 

Exactly where we would get to once the "five year plan" financially balanced I don't know. A profit sharing 10 club SL set in stone with a lower salary cap perhaps??.

 

I'm not championing it, just answering the question as to how to fund the type of league suggested. Look forward to others answering it.

Edited by The Parksider

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I never said.........

 

How HKR and Hull benefit each other, or how P & R would have helped Superleague advannce by promoting Sheffield and relegating Widnes at the end of 2012??

 

Are you going out today?

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I seem to be going round in circles with a few, so I'm going to put that to one side now.

The issues we face in restructuring the league are that we don't seem to know what direction we want to go in. We don't have an end goal. We keep going one way or another and upsetting everyone whilst at the same time creating a horrible feel with supporters of the game as things are not being made clear. The system is unfair. People are unhappy.

What most people I've encountered want is a clear and fair system. I don't think I've ever spoken to a casual sports fan who has thought dropping in random teams for no good reason has been a good idea (that doesn't mean it isn't, but it doesn't paint a good image of the game).

The need for expansion is important, but it needs to be done fairly. That to me doesn't mean thy have to come through the Championship. There's more than one way to skin a cat. The Championships are there for British clubs to progress, but start asking a club to fly a part-time squad during the week to another country and talk of "fairness" goes out the window.

So we are left with a European competition that needs to look at different ways of entry if it wants to keep P&R in to satisfy the numerous hungry British clubs (which I think is a good thing all these clubs want to work their way in to the top league and we should find an open way to let them, P&R being one way) whilst at the same time look to admit new clubs from new countries (ie. French clubs).

Catalans entry in 2006 was a successful model that has never been followed. There were still a few issues with it that needed clarity to satisfy those who thought they were done an injustice because of this, but all in all it's difficult to argue that Catalans inclusion into SL has been a bad thing.

So how do we balance the two?

Personally, and people might not agree with this, I think we need to (metaphorically) break SL up. Other European competitions in other sports often have a certain allocation of clubs attributed to each country/governing body and that country/governing body picks what clubs go into that competition (correct me if I'm wrong). In football, there are four PL clubs that are entered into the Champions League. The FA decides that certain positions qualify, and could decide to change that, if they wanted to, to top 3 and the FA Cup winners if they wished. In rugby union, the Heineken Cup has certain teams from RFU, from WRU, SRU, etc. Those countries decide how they pick who enters.

So what I'm suggesting is that we make a clear distinction about how many British teams we want in SL and how many French teams, and that be decided by a European RL commission. For the sake of argument, I'm going to say it is decided as 10 British clubs and 2 French clubs. The 10 British clubs are then decided by the RFL and 2 French clubs by the FFR13. If the FFR13 decide that they want to franchise their two spots (presumably to Toulouse and Catalans), that's their choice. It's their two spots. They may find later on that Toulouse are failing and Avignon are a better bet. That guarantee that they have two French spots may be enough to help drive TV negotiations.

On the flip side, the RFL may decide that they want P&R for their 10 clubs, so the worst performing British club is replaced by the best performing Championship club. It's open, straightforward, and their choice. What happens with the French is if no concern to the British clubs in the British RL system. They need to finish above the British clubs or get relegated into the next level of the British tier.

Later negotiations of the European RL commission may see an increase in the number of French clubs or British clubs. It may see a separation of the British clubs into English (RFL) and Welsh (WRL), although all Welsh clubs are playing in RFL competitions currently which is why I've left it as British.

The Long Term Plan would be to see enough clubs enter outside of the RFL to start their own league (whether that be just a French league or a combined nations league) where they are secure franchises, leaving an RFL elite competition that can clearly promote and relegate sides. If a rich man wants to parachute an expansion side in, they can negotiate with the ERLC and find a place in that European league.

Personally, I think that's the only way you'll be able to keep P&R and expand into other nations in a clear cut "everyone knows the score" manner. None of this "exempt from relegation for two years" when we know they're only saying that because they know licensing will kick in so effectively giving them a franchise during the P&R era. If they want to expand into the French market, give the French more of a say.

I gladly await someone to rip into some parts of that as I have most likely overlooked some important facts (and opinions), but it can always be tweaked.

 

Makes a lot of sense that, good idea.

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.....

Catalans entry in 2006 was a successful model that has never been followed. There were still a few issues with it that needed clarity to satisfy those who thought they were done an injustice because of this, but all in all it's difficult to argue that Catalans inclusion into SL has been a bad thing.

....

I think this is a key point.  Most people on here could see that Crusaders were dodgy (including expanazis like myself).  However, many expansion clubs seemed to be set for failure.  

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But Parky, p and r does not eliminate an elite top tier league. In fact it strengthens it by removing not so elite failing teams and replacing them with successful ambitious newcomers. One of these finished top last season. What ring fencing does is support mediocrity, a far cry from elitism. It's a prop for failure.

I can't think of one poster on here who is advocating cancelling the Sky contract. Most people would like it to be bigger

Yes it worked brilliantly for over twenty years didn't it

 

The last time we had it Castleford were replaced by a club weaker than them in every aspect of performance on and off the field and were immediately relegated...joke, farce, laughing stock: take your pick

 

 

Is that how it is supposed to work?

 

 

 

Rugby league has been dealt a lousy hand right from 1895

It has had issues with growth, finance, perception by the general public via negative stereotyping and a massive conflict between its tradition of progressiveness and a small minded self interested reactionary element within it

 

Having 'divisions' where clubs progress up and down them isn't something God handed down on a tablet of stone from on high. There is no law says that sports have to do this.

 

This was introduced originally to solve a problem for the bigger clubs who were losing money by having to play poorly supported small clubs on their own side of the pennines. It meant that big games would be more frequent. The issue was only partly addressed because of the effect of marginal clubs destroying themselves by going up one year and down the next on a frequent and regular basis, and limiting the opportunity to expand the game at elite level and the intention of attracting big attendances was not realised and that includes in fact that especially includes the the much onanised over relegation battles...which rarely happened and weren't that well attended. Hard information has been provided for people like you by people like me and others but you take no notice. Touching even take sufficient notice to construct a credible meaningful counter argument.

We bring back auto prom and the

We go back to that nightmare of the yo yo syndrome

Once say Catalans have a bad season and go down we retreat into our enclave once more with clubs just up the road from each other play each other and clubs like toulouse who really could expand the games horizons are excluded forever

I can imagine, sadly a lot of people liking that idea

 

Rugby league is not soccer it is not rich, powerful enough, or widespread enough to support auto prom and reg

 

It is not cricket where the sparsely attended elite county competition is subsidised by other competitions played using different versions of the game

 

It is not rugby union which has wealth, influence and geographical spread and incidentally has the wherewithal to attract a 70,000+ audience for a club game in a competition where as it happens there is no automatic promotion to or relegation from its elite competition

 

Do people  with an eye for the future of the game really think that statements like

"We can manage to spend full salary cap on attendances of 5,000" or whatever is a genuine, recipe for frostbite whatever club is being referring to or for the elite competition in general? Clutching at straws? The straw doesn't even exist

 

People invoke 'fairness' and 'justice' just how pathetic is that. They need Robison their eyes and look at the real unfairness and injustice that is going in around them, and at the same time open their minds to the issues that rugby league faces and that people are trying to address those issues

 

No don't bother

Concentrate on what you want, what your narrow self interest dictates 

Edited by l'angelo mysterioso

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Yes it worked brilliantly for over twenty years didn't it

The last time we had it Castleford were replaced by a club weaker than them in every aspect of performance on and off the field and were immediately relegated...joke, farce, laughing stock: take your pick

So you're going to pick one year where a promoted side immediately failed and call that proof?

Come on, you're usually better than that.

What about Widnes in 2002? Nearly finished in the playoffs.

Hull KR in 2007 have gone from strength to strength.

Relegated SL sides like Hudds and Salford kicked on for a while (Salford hitting the play offs at one point before having a stinker and going down).

You can't write off P&R (or Leigh) because Leigh had a bad season once.

And for others, you can't blame P&R for Haliifax getting into bother. That's bad management that got them into bother.

Having 'divisions' where clubs progress up and down them isn't something God handed down on a tablet of stone from on high. There is no law says that sports have to do this.

Nobody has said there is. It's just a preference for many.

This was introduced originally to solve a problem for the bigger clubs who were losing money by having to play poorly supported small clubs on their own side of the pennines. It meant that big games would be more frequent. The issue was only partly addressed because of the effect of marginal clubs destroying themselves by going up one year and down the next on a frequent and regular basis, and limiting the opportunity to expand the game at elite level and the intention of attracting big attendances was not realised and that includes in fact that especially includes the the much onanised over relegation battles...which rarely happened and weren't that well attended. Hard information has been provided for people like you by people like me and others but you take no notice. Touching even take sufficient notice to construct a credible meaningful counter argument.

As opposed to the great wooden spoon battles that nobody noticed, or the many great attendances at clubs with nothing to play for from round 18?

Things may not always go down to the wire, but things certainly have people a reason to play for for longer than now.

We bring back auto prom and the

We go back to that nightmare of the yo yo syndrome

Again... one club. Only Castleford yoyoed during SL. It's not an argument. They very nearly survived both times as well. And very nearly didn't get promoted.

Once say Catalans have a bad season and go down we retreat into our enclave once more with clubs just up the road from each other play each other and clubs like toulouse who really could expand the games horizons are excluded forever

I can imagine, sadly a lot of people liking that idea

See my solution.

Rugby league is not soccer it is not rich, powerful enough, or widespread enough to support auto prom and reg

I disagree. We can improve what we have to help clubs, but I don't think we can't support it.

Do people with an eye for the future of the game really think that statements like

"We can manage to spend full salary cap on attendances of 5,000" or whatever is a genuine, recipe for frostbite whatever club is being referring to or for the elite competition in general? Clutching at straws? The straw doesn't even exist

And yet people want to give licenses to random expansion sides with rich backers as an alternative? This is hardly an argument against P&R.

People invoke 'fairness' and 'justice' just how pathetic is that. They need Robison their eyes and look at the real unfairness and injustice that is going in around them, and at the same time open their minds to the issues that rugby league faces and that people are trying to address those issues

No don't bother

Concentrate on what you want, what your narrow self interest dictates

Again, just because there's unfairness and injustice going on around you doesn't mean you shouldn't strive for it yourself. If anything, to say we shouldn't is pathetic.

If this was a debate about child poverty, we wouldn't be saying "well let's feed the more likely to survive kids, it's unfair but there's injustice going on everywhere anyway." I'm not using this as a metaphor for spreading the money around the leagues by the way (rugby clubs aren't starving children!), but you can see how poor an argument it is to dismiss unfairness because there is other unfairness going around.

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Having 'divisions' where clubs progress up and down them isn't something God handed down on a tablet of stone from on high. There is no law says that sports have to do this.

 

This was introduced originally to solve a problem for the bigger clubs who were losing money by having to play poorly supported small clubs on their own side of the pennines. It meant that big games would be more frequent.

 

Isn't that just the truth.

 

Bramley were appalled at their loss of fixtures against Leeds, Leeds were delighted to be playing Wigan and Saints every year.

 

Isn't that just the ultimate irony that people at small clubs are calling for the re-introduction of a system designed to keep them out!!!

 

Still waiting to hear how anyone thinks replacing bottom place Widnes with Sheffield 2012 would have improved Superleague? Or replacing Les Catalans with a second Hull club in 2007 or Hunslet and Dewsbury dislodging Hull and Huddersfield 1999.

 

The cry is always against "money" being the deciding factor in promotion. Another tremendous irony given that virtually all sides who have been promoted under auto P & R did so not because their clubs "grew" as businesses, but because their chairmen found a few quid to buy better players. How about promoting the grass roots expanded Barrow of 2009??

 

Would P & R have done a great job there???

 

Still to hear why P & R is such a great "mechanism"??

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of course if we had a exciting,constructive and competitive league beneath super league then the 23 clubs ( or 30 clubs in my 4 leagues of 10 idea) outside of super league could benefit from their own "cash" tv deal....

 

Championship Club games are broadcast on Premier Sports, Question:-

 

  • Who does Premier Sports have the contract with?
  • How much is it for?
  • How is the money shared out?

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Championship Club games are broadcast on Premier Sports, Question:-

 

  • Who does Premier Sports have the contract with?
  • How much is it for?
  • How is the money shared out?

 

 

  • The RFL
  • Nothing
  • It isn't

From what I've heard, can't 100% vouch for it's accuracy

Edited by Ponterover

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League Express - Mon 10th April 2017

Rugby League World - April 2017