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The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)

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It is important that the re-structuring of the game takes into account the championship clubs.If licencing had been a resounding success and we had 14 financially stable and successful clubs I would be pleased on one count but to counter that we have the demise of the championship.As it is we have aSL in name at only 8 or 9 clubs and still a slow decline at semi pro level.What can we do to re-ignite that enthusiasm in Leigh,Halifax,

Oldham,Workington,Barrow and Whitehaven - all of which are amongst the strongest areas of the amateur game?

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It is important that the re-structuring of the game takes into account the championship clubs.If licencing had been a resounding success and we had 14 financially stable and successful clubs I would be pleased on one count but to counter that we have the demise of the championship.As it is we have aSL in name at only 8 or 9 clubs and still a slow decline at semi pro level.What can we do to re-ignite that enthusiasm in Leigh,Halifax,

Oldham,Workington,Barrow and Whitehaven - all of which are amongst the strongest areas of the amateur game?

 

I'm afraid the strongest areas of our amateur game are actually in Leeds, Hull, Wigan and St.Helens, Calder and Pennine.

 

Having a club in SL tends to support and grow the amateur/junior game. It also grows crowds. As you say if the local club is semi-pro then there's a decline. Both my statements are from looking at where top players come from, where most junior clubs are based and looking at attendances over the years. Fact based opinion?

 

There isn't the money to "enthuse" every last area based on the historical small town clubs. I think the only answer (a highly theoretical one) is JUST have Superleague clubs, say one in Hull, One in Cumbria, One in Calder, One in Cheshire, One in Wigan, One in Bradhuddersfax etc.

 

Put all resources into them and give all the fans a Superleague club to support and to grow the game in those areas. I know it's thinking outside the box and very radical..........

Edited by The Parksider

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No they were horribly in debt.

 

However it was said there were big investors waiting for Keighley to get into SL whereupon those funds would have been unleashed. The same story was told recently by Craiq who told us if Leigh get in they will also have big investors move in.

 

To be fair Toulouse have also pulled that one, the Aerospace industry will apparently mega finance the club but didn't show a penny of it in the Championship. It's arguable that Featherstone Rovers are pulling the same con trick, if admitted to SL Mr. Nahaboo will apparently "fund full cap year on year". Please deposit £10,000,000 at RL headquarters then Mr. N.

 

He's popped a hundred grand in hasn't he? is that signal of intention enough or not???

 

In the debate of Licensing.v.P & R with "Fairness and Justice" added what people don't like is that some "commitee" say who is in and out, and that's not fair or just because who IS to say Nahaboo won't spend £millions or the French Aerospace Industry won't buy up all Wigans best players for Toulouse?

 

Whose to say Keighley didn't have those investors waiting and nor do Leigh??

 

If we want real justice and fairness IMHO we give clubs the chance no matter what. It's not for a "panel" or an "accountant" to pre-judge whether clubs can step up, find the finance, get the fans rolling in etc etc.

Is it really a tolerable position to say we will be fair to you if we think your club may make a fist of it in Superleague.

 

I'm happy for P & R or licensing, but the half way house is as all half way houses are - a compromise to suit nobody at all. I'm for and end to licensing in it's current form and so am delighted to welcome back automatic P & R. The only problem with it will remain the dreaded "gap" where one club vying for an SL spot is £1,000,000 in front of another (unfair) one club will have a bigger squad of better players than another (an injustice).

 

Now that gap - that's really "unfair".......

Wasn't one of those investors a major drug dealer?

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Ok so you are all for prom and the with conditions. There's still a large self serving constituency who are in favour of auto p and r nd so my comment was relevant to the issue

Anyway. What would be the conditions you speak of? Stable finances? Are you serious...there is no such thing, but we'll go with it anyway. How would you define 'stable finances'? Anyway a club might not have a pot to loss in but still have 'stable finances'. Prescott Panthers never made a loss, maybe we could resurrect them.

If Prescott Panthers can win the Championship without making a financial loss, wouldn't that say a lot about their business plan?

You can't keep using the "self-serving" argument as a stick to beat people with. Argue the points, not the messenger. I'm calling for the same things, yet it serves my club no different. If we're talking self-serving from a personal point of view, then isn't everything everyone argues self-serving in a way?

Let's just leave the self-serving part out of it and argue why you think P&R isn't the best way forward.

But surely there must be other conditions. What should they be?

How would your conditional p and r affect the introduction of European clubs into what is after all a European super league? The idea of yet another club from the Wakefield met area being admitted st the expense of say Toulouse bothers me.

In my suggestion, this wouldn't happen.

As much as I agree that it would annoy me if Catalans were relegated for small club, it would equally annoy me (if not more so) if failing SL clubs were kept in SL year after year.

Where have I said that justice and fairness are unimportant? Please don't put words into people's mouths especially if they are untrue.

You said that the people arguing against the people trying to address the issues that RL faces are pathetic because they don't think it's fair or just.

If you'd have argued why you think it is fair and just instead of calling them pathetic, people wouldn't have the impression that they are unimportant to your views.

Where have I said divisions aren't necessary? Super league isn't a 'division' it's a competition in its own right

Super league isn't ring fenced nor should it be. I don't think I've said that it should. Far from it.

SL is effectively ring-fenced for the clubs that the people in the RFL believe faces fit the most. There are clubs who will never get in no matter what under current proposals. You may disagree, but others will agree and it's this grey area that causes the unrest of fans as no one can really prove otherwise yet there is plenty of arguments for both.

Like I keep saying, it needs to be clear, black and white. Not grey.

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In reply to- Parksider-Halifax and Oldham are in the Pennine areas and in an amateur sense Leigh is attached to Wigan.Surely no-one would not include Cumbria in this list.

Your point about SL developing amateur teams in their area has not happened in Huddersfield- a far weaker area than Halifax and Oldham.All that happens in these areas is that a large number of amateur players and supporters only watch the game on a Saturday and don,t attend professional games in great numbers.

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In reply to- Parksider-Halifax and Oldham are in the Pennine areas and in an amateur sense Leigh is attached to Wigan.Surely no-one would not include Cumbria in this list.

Your point about SL developing amateur teams in their area has not happened in Huddersfield- a far weaker area than Halifax and Oldham.All that happens in these areas is that a large number of amateur players and supporters only watch the game on a Saturday and don,t attend professional games in great numbers.

 

I did a study of the first XV11's of the SL clubs last year. I will be the odd player out but there were 25 Wigan born senior pro's and 22 Leeds born senior pro's. For Bradford born 7, Huddersfield born 7 and Halifax born 4.  Oldham were 4 and Cumbria 5. Hull was 13. Fev/Ponte/Cas/Wakey/Normanton was 25.

 

I'm looking forward to checking this years figures out.

 

I think markets drive businesses and I find it clear that the Market for Superleague is very strong. At the start of it 5543 watched the top division, the figure today has been as much as 9431.Conversely the market for Championship rugby has declined, almost halved

 

If I were to guess I think more people want top class RL or conversely top class amateur RL which is great for those clubs after all they create the players.

 

Sadly the championship clubs just seem to exist in the middle. The market seems to have polarised the game??

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Isn't that just the truth.

 

Bramley were appalled at their loss of fixtures against Leeds, Leeds were delighted to be playing Wigan and Saints every year.

 

Isn't that just the ultimate irony that people at small clubs are calling for the re-introduction of a system designed to keep them out!!!

 

Still waiting to hear how anyone thinks replacing bottom place Widnes with Sheffield 2012 would have improved Superleague? Or replacing Les Catalans with a second Hull club in 2007 or Hunslet and Dewsbury dislodging Hull and Huddersfield 1999.

 

The cry is always against "money" being the deciding factor in promotion. Another tremendous irony given that virtually all sides who have been promoted under auto P & R did so not because their clubs "grew" as businesses, but because their chairmen found a few quid to buy better players. How about promoting the grass roots expanded Barrow of 2009??

 

Would P & R have done a great job there???

 

Still to hear why P & R is such a great "mechanism"??

Isn't that just the truth.

 

Bramley were appalled at their loss of fixtures against Leeds, Leeds were delighted to be playing Wigan and Saints every year.

 

Isn't that just the ultimate irony that people at small clubs are calling for the re-introduction of a system designed to keep them out!!!

 

Still waiting to hear how anyone thinks replacing bottom place Widnes with Sheffield 2012 would have improved Superleague? Or replacing Les Catalans with a second Hull club in 2007 or Hunslet and Dewsbury dislodging Hull and Huddersfield 1999.

 

The cry is always against "money" being the deciding factor in promotion. Another tremendous irony given that virtually all sides who have been promoted under auto P & R did so not because their clubs "grew" as businesses, but because their chairmen found a few quid to buy better players. How about promoting the grass roots expanded Barrow of 2009??

 

Would P & R have done a great job there???

 

Still to hear why P & R is such a great "mechanism"??

When the league split into divisions, Bramley were in the 1st division so they got their reward for finishing in a high league position in the 30 club table the previous season. So they got their fixture against Leeds.

If we ditch this fixed and weighted 3 x 8 nonsense and go back to straight p and r, the system is not designed to keep small clubs out, nor is it designed to get them in. It merely creates an opportunity for them to get to the top if the are able to grasp it.

Those clubs who would have been promoted and those relegated would have been reaping the rewards for their success or failure a the case may be. Dewsbury had previously been in the top division and were quite a decent side with decent attendances for some seasons. A second club in Leeds would not be a bad thing IMVHO. Sheffield is an expansion area. They are a well run club, they have had success on the field, there is a new purpose built ground proposed for them. If their finances could handle it, what's not to like. I bet Sky would relish a new market in a city the size of Sheffeld. My point is that these clubs would have been rewarded for their success and the relegated clubs penalised for their failure. As some on here like to constantly state. Life ain't fair.

Hull, Widnes and Huddersfield have all been relegated at various times and survived, luckily for them because p and r was in place and they had the opportunity to bounce back.

It strange you are championing Widnes, a small time team adjacent to a SL colossus, on well less than 10,000 crowds. These are exactly the criteria you claim are a recipe for disaster and a negative factor in the larger neighbour's prospects.

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This sounds wonderfull, and indeed would be if it could be made to work, But unfortunatly you again use Soccer to demonstrare  it desirability, When a sport is completely awash with Money you could probably make anything work.

League has a very accute shortage of Money , And what there is, is being generated by clubs ( like your own ) the so called Elite, The horrible truth is, That is what is causing the problem, The so called smaller clubs see what the big clubs have and think I want some of that, They are incabable of creating the kind of Money required ( unless they are lucky as my club have been ) so a system has to be found to give them their earned chance, Even if it sets them back for years.

 

The other side of the coin is the Elite clubs who themselves are short ( some far more than others ) are having to invest a lot of their own money to stay competitive and keep up, or try to increase standards, So quite understandable they are not going to be forming a que to support any system that will reduce their incomes. on a promise it will be the making of the game, Listening to clubs talking about what they can do on a shoe string, will cut no ice whatever with them, Nor would it with you or me , if we were the ones putting in the millions.

 

I see all the merit in your Idea, as i say it would be great if it could be made to work, but i don't see how it would increase money coming into the sport ( in the heart lands )

 

Fev are a club who are mentioned a lot on here , because they have done a great job, and have earned their chance, I'm sure they would do ok in some fancy league system on the field,  What i want to know is Whatever that system is, Even one as good as yours might well be, What is going to swell their coffers to over 3 million a year,  The point i'm trying to make is that whatever the system in operation, The cream will still rise to the top either through benefactors or big crowds , Or at the very top clubs both. But whatever it will be Money behind it, because it's behind everything .

 

Imo The CC needs to be lifted to a higher standard, ( not big news ) but also in my opinion that is going to take a lot of money and just tinkering about with formats , just like the past , or promoting clubs to be slaughtered won't deliver, and any format or system that effectively reduces money to the Elite clubs is like to have a very detremental effect, IMO The money coming into league at the moment needs to be doubled at least, Then there may indeed be a chance to go down your route.

 

The RFL don't really seem to me to have their finger on the pulse when it comes to bringing money into the game .

This sounds wonderfull, and indeed would be if it could be made to work, But unfortunatly you again use Soccer to demonstrare  it desirability, When a sport is completely awash with Money you could probably make anything work.

League has a very accute shortage of Money , And what there is, is being generated by clubs ( like your own ) the so called Elite, The horrible truth is, That is what is causing the problem, The so called smaller clubs see what the big clubs have and think I want some of that, They are incabable of creating the kind of Money required ( unless they are lucky as my club have been ) so a system has to be found to give them their earned chance, Even if it sets them back for years.

 

The other side of the coin is the Elite clubs who themselves are short ( some far more than others ) are having to invest a lot of their own money to stay competitive and keep up, or try to increase standards, So quite understandable they are not going to be forming a que to support any system that will reduce their incomes. on a promise it will be the making of the game, Listening to clubs talking about what they can do on a shoe string, will cut no ice whatever with them, Nor would it with you or me , if we were the ones putting in the millions.

 

I see all the merit in your Idea, as i say it would be great if it could be made to work, but i don't see how it would increase money coming into the sport ( in the heart lands )

 

Fev are a club who are mentioned a lot on here , because they have done a great job, and have earned their chance, I'm sure they would do ok in some fancy league system on the field,  What i want to know is Whatever that system is, Even one as good as yours might well be, What is going to swell their coffers to over 3 million a year,  The point i'm trying to make is that whatever the system in operation, The cream will still rise to the top either through benefactors or big crowds , Or at the very top clubs both. But whatever it will be Money behind it, because it's behind everything .

 

Imo The CC needs to be lifted to a higher standard, ( not big news ) but also in my opinion that is going to take a lot of money and just tinkering about with formats , just like the past , or promoting clubs to be slaughtered won't deliver, and any format or system that effectively reduces money to the Elite clubs is like to have a very detremental effect, IMO The money coming into league at the moment needs to be doubled at least, Then there may indeed be a chance to go down your route.

 

The RFL don't really seem to me to have their finger on the pulse when it comes to bringing money into the game .

The cream will rise to the top so, eventually, in theory, all the current SL behomoths will still be n SL. However, some of the "others" might want to produce their own cream and might be better at rising than current incumbents, e.g. London and Bradford. That is why there is a need for p and r. Money is crucial and will win out in the end. The end might not be exactly what the ring fencers want though because a Fev or a Halifax might just do a better job than a formerly ring fenced team. That s all I want. A chance for upward mobility. If it doesn't happen and the status quo remains largly as it is then that's fine as well. The lower orders will have had heir chance.

I absolutely agree that the RFL don't seem to chase the TV money as aggressivlely as they might but, to be fair, that's only my perception from the outside looking in. The reality might be quite the oppsoite

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Noone predicted Dr Kash pulling Salford from the mire, so to say any club gets into debt to achieve success has no grounds. Keighley invested in the rise of optimism in the town, when it came to nothing then the inevitable happened. Somehow I can't reconcile that Keighley made a indefensible mistake and yet when SL clubs run out of  money they have by right access to further investment without question, to save the quality and integrity of the competition. Under some form of inclusive structure, these waves of optimism and investment and cash shortages and pessimism, should be allowed to play out their course. At the end of the day Dr Kash may have turned his attentions elsewhere if there was some form of annual P&R, and Salford left to it's fate.

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When the league split into divisions............ete etc etc

Are you going to answer the ambiguity you created stating clubs should have a "chance for all" then stated they should not be automatically promoted unless they were vetted for "standards"?

Edited by The Parksider

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That s all I want. A chance for upward mobility. If it doesn't happen and the status quo remains largly as it is then that's fine as well. The lower orders will have had their chance.

Not under your standards led proposal. Clubs will be denied the chance on someones say so?

Care to deal with this please?

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Under some form of inclusive structure, these waves of optimism and investment and cash shortages and pessimism, should be allowed to play out their course.

Either that or the best clubs should be properly ring fenced, properly controlled and financially protected if that is the better model.

Not sure leaving business to chance/drift is a great strategy.

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1. Licensing or P & R as a selection method does the same job. It dictates the comings and goings of clubs in Superleague. The consequent success or failure is then down to the clubs. The odd idea you seem to float is that a club is more likely to do well if it is promoted by P & R rather than licensing.

 

Padge once said back in the Ed I Tackle mists of time "It's all about money". Clubs succeed or fail on money. I think he's repeated in 1,376 times. Don't you get the point?? I think you should study all the comings and goings in SL and you may find he's absolutely spot on.

 

2. I think you actually do get the point, given what you have said here. I find it a stunning about turn when you say if you were in charge you would give a "chance for all and when they get their chance they will sink or swim". Yet you would vet them for "stable finances" first??? You would refuse clubs a chance.

 

You never told me what you thought about how P & R would have benefited SL in 2012 when Widnes came bottom of SL and Sheffield won the CC Grand final?? Given what you have said above I suspect you would have rejected Sheffield and left Widnes in. After all financially Widnes are a far richer club, and gate income wise they have many times more spectators.

 

Can you see the ambiguity of how you would have sunk Sheffield with your money policy, which would have been at odds with your......

 

3. Justice and fairness policy. IMVHO you got into problems with your argument trying to adapt "justice and fairness" to highly competitive businesses, who will compete to make each other losers on the pitch, who will use money to steal each others players, who will stand on the head of the club in front to get past them. You are more than a little mixed up here?

 

Standards P & R is not justice, it is not fairness......

1. Licensing or P & R as a selection method does the same job. It dictates the comings and goings of clubs in Superleague. The consequent success or failure is then down to the clubs. The odd idea you seem to float is that a club is more likely to do well if it is promoted by P & R rather than licensing.

 

Padge once said back in the Ed I Tackle mists of time "It's all about money". Clubs succeed or fail on money. I think he's repeated in 1,376 times. Don't you get the point?? I think you should study all the comings and goings in SL and you may find he's absolutely spot on.

 

2. I think you actually do get the point, given what you have said here. I find it a stunning about turn when you say if you were in charge you would give a "chance for all and when they get their chance they will sink or swim". Yet you would vet them for "stable finances" first??? You would refuse clubs a chance.

 

You never told me what you thought about how P & R would have benefited SL in 2012 when Widnes came bottom of SL and Sheffield won the CC Grand final?? Given what you have said above I suspect you would have rejected Sheffield and left Widnes in. After all financially Widnes are a far richer club, and gate income wise they have many times more spectators.

 

Can you see the ambiguity of how you would have sunk Sheffield with your money policy, which would have been at odds with your......

 

3. Justice and fairness policy. IMVHO you got into problems with your argument trying to adapt "justice and fairness" to highly competitive businesses, who will compete to make each other losers on the pitch, who will use money to steal each others players, who will stand on the head of the club in front to get past them. You are more than a little mixed up here?

 

Standards P & R is not justice, it is not fairness......

As in all things complete freedom results in anarchy. You have freedom of speech but you can't shout "Fire" in a crowded theatre. You can't hurl racial epithets around with impunity because there would be blood in the streets. You can't have naked unregulated capitalism because it creates serious have and have not divisions and destabilises society. It has to be regulated.

In RL we have had unrestricted p and r and yo yo clubs and bankruptcies have destabilised the game. Whilst, in theory, I support auto p and r, in practice it has injurious effects. In the same way that just issuing a licence, just because I think such and such a team deserves it with no standards attached would do the same.

the problem is that licencing, with or without standards, is ring fencing. Any turnover by not renewing licences, if indeed it were ever to happen, is way too slow. The lower teams cannot better themselves beacusenthey are condemned to remain in the lower tier with a negative effect on finances and attendances.

So, we need a middle ground. P and r removes the ring fenced, hardly ever changing, makeup of SL and gives the lower teams a chance at the big time but, in order not to destabilise things with teams who cannot compete, having won promotion, it is necessary to ensure that they can compete at this higher level and survive as a club, not necessarily stay up, by compelling them to have finances in place that will ensure stability. this is good for the individual clubs and SL as an entity.

Moderation in all things usually ensures stability. There is a need for laws, rules and regulations to prevent chaos.

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Those clubs who would have been promoted and those relegated would have been reaping the rewards for their success or failure a the case may be. Dewsbury had previously been in the top division and were quite a decent side with decent attendances for some seasons. A second club in Leeds would not be a bad thing IMVHO. Sheffield is an expansion area. They are a well run club, they have had success on the field, there is a new purpose built ground proposed for them. If their finances could handle it, what's not to like. I bet Sky would relish a new market in a city the size of Sheffeld. My point is that these clubs would have been rewarded for their success and the relegated clubs penalised for their failure. As some on here like to constantly state. Life ain't fair.

.

 

What !!???

 

People in Sheffield are going to buy Sky boxes because Sheffield Eagles are in $uperleague ???

 

Let's keep this discussion realistic, please.

 

Incidentally, what's the record number of posts on a thread ?

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Not under your standards led proposal. Clubs will be denied the chance on someones say so?

Care to deal with this please?

No. Clubs will have been denied their chance by their own inability to meet the conditions set before promotion can be achieved.

In the same way that a licence would not be issued to an insolvent team ( or so we were told). The difference is, if the standards were met, results on the field would determine promotion not KPMG or some committee in a smoke filled back room casting votes for their co conspirators and mates.

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What !!???

 

People in Sheffield are going to buy Sky boxes because Sheffield Eagles are in $uperleague ???

 

Let's keep this discussion realistic, please.

 

Incidentally, what's the record number of posts on a thread ?

isn't it a theory that people in Wigan buy Sky boxes because Wigan are in SL. Why should Sheffield be different ?

I don't know the record. Have I broken it ? Do I get a gold star if I have. I don't see the problem. I am intersetd in this subject. I have my ideas. Other people have other ideas and challenge my points and I respond. Isn't that kind of thing the raison d'etre of this board ? I am retired and have time to play. I didn't realise a limitation on a certain number of posts was a requirement.

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If Prescott Panthers can win the Championship without making a financial loss, wouldn't that say a lot about their business plan?

You can't keep using the "self-serving" argument as a stick to beat people with. Argue the points, not the messenger. I'm calling for the same things, yet it serves my club no different. If we're talking self-serving from a personal point of view, then isn't everything everyone argues self-serving in a way?

Let's just leave the self-serving part out of it and argue why you think P&R isn't the best way forward.

In my suggestion, this wouldn't happen.

As much as I agree that it would annoy me if Catalans were relegated for small club, it would equally annoy me (if not more so) if failing SL clubs were kept in SL year after year.

You said that the people arguing against the people trying to address the issues that RL faces are pathetic because they don't think it's fair or just.

If you'd have argued why you think it is fair and just instead of calling them pathetic, people wouldn't have the impression that they are unimportant to your views.

SL is effectively ring-fenced for the clubs that the people in the RFL believe faces fit the most. There are clubs who will never get in no matter what under current proposals. You may disagree, but others will agree and it's this grey area that causes the unrest of fans as no one can really prove otherwise yet there is plenty of arguments for both.

Like I keep saying, it needs to be clear, black and white. Not grey.

 

If Prescott Panthers can win the Championship without making a financial loss, wouldn't that say a lot about their business plan?

You can't keep using the "self-serving" argument as a stick to beat people with. Argue the points, not the messenger. I'm calling for the same things, yet it serves my club no different. If we're talking self-serving from a personal point of view, then isn't everything everyone argues self-serving in a way?

Let's just leave the self-serving part out of it and argue why you think P&R isn't the best way forward.

In my suggestion, this wouldn't happen.

As much as I agree that it would annoy me if Catalans were relegated for small club, it would equally annoy me (if not more so) if failing SL clubs were kept in SL year after year.

You said that the people arguing against the people trying to address the issues that RL faces are pathetic because they don't think it's fair or just.

If you'd have argued why you think it is fair and just instead of calling them pathetic, people wouldn't have the impression that they are unimportant to your views.

SL is effectively ring-fenced for the clubs that the people in the RFL believe faces fit the most. There are clubs who will never get in no matter what under current proposals. You may disagree, but others will agree and it's this grey area that causes the unrest of fans as no one can really prove otherwise yet there is plenty of arguments for both.

Like I keep saying, it needs to be clear, black and white. Not grey.

Nobody can win the championship without financial loss. The Panthers were financially stable. They were an example of the only requirement that Keighley has put forward for his/her conditional promotion and relegation. My point being that he/ she hasn't defined what financial stability is for his/ her purposes. Important in the financially insane world of professional sport.

And again we have still to be told what the other conditions should be if any.

 

Imho there is a massive element of self interest in this discussion, hence I use the tern self serving. By far the most support for this restructure or for prom and the in whatever firm is from people who's club would in imho the very short-term Hetherington it with no benefit to the progress of the sport in actuality or potentially. I think that this is unfair and unjust on the sports elite competition.

I know of no decision taken by the governing body that has been taken in order to do a club down. People take decisions for the benefit of the sport as they see it. Not giving people what suits them or doesn't suit them is not being unfair or unjust.

I disagree with this restructure. It doesn't suit me, it isn't what I want. That doesn't make it unfair or unjust in my eyes.

 

As for arguing why p and r isn't the best way: FFS where have you been wellsy? For years myself and many others have argued against it supplying hard information to support that argument. Do I have to go over it all again? Although there is s sample on this thread if you take the trouble to look.

Nothing is ring fenced otherwise clubs wouldn't be admitted.

What do you suppose makes a clubs 'face fit'?

Edited by l'angelo mysterioso

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Imho there is a massive element of self interest in this discussion, hence I use the tern self serving.

Yet you don't use this term when supporters of clubs that would benefit from the changes not being made, post. Strange that...

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The cream will rise to the top so, eventually, in theory, all the current SL behomoths will still be n SL. However, some of the "others" might want to produce their own cream and might be better at rising than current incumbents, e.g. London and Bradford. That is why there is a need for p and r. Money is crucial and will win out in the end. The end might not be exactly what the ring fencers want though because a Fev or a Halifax might just do a better job than a formerly ring fenced team. That s all I want. A chance for upward mobility. If it doesn't happen and the status quo remains largly as it is then that's fine as well. The lower orders will have had heir chance.

I absolutely agree that the RFL don't seem to chase the TV money as aggressivlely as they might but, to be fair, that's only my perception from the outside looking in. The reality might be quite the oppsoite

 

I don't think i have ever said anywhere i am not in favor of  P&R  ( I know you are not claiming i have ).

 What worries me is a team turning up at Sts, Wigan, Leeds, Wolves any of the powerful clubs and getting tonked every week, Not only could it be very detremental to the club (as we have seen in the past ) But it is a complete turn off for fans , and would almost certainly lead to less of them turning up live , and even more from switching on.

  I say this from experiance, never mind going back decades, Just going back a few years will do, Year after year wooden spoonists, Masive beatings by some clubs Bull's, Wolves, Just about everybody, Had it not been for the determination of 1 man to see through what he had started  ,We would be long gone.

   I am not saying this is bound to happen to Fev, Fax, Sheffield whoever get's promoted, but you have to see the strong possiblity, You and i know that putting out 17 good players is just the start of it, you have to have another 10 or 15  ideally as good for when the injuries start, and thats just the players, behind this is all the coaching and marketing, and i think you know where I'm coming from, The whole thing reputably costing over 3 million per year.

 As far as i can see the only thing about Pro RL that isn't going backwards is SL, it is the major earner in the game, Surely the aim must be to keep that comp as strong as it can possibly be to keep bringing the money in  and attempt to make Clubs below that level as good and as competitive as they can be,

 

Fev, Fax, Sheffield, Leigh , all strong clubs in their comp, and indeed short of competition, and i agree they need some way to improve even more, but It's just MO that in SL playing against teams like Wigan every week who are a multi-million  club would just ( like the Giants for many years ) get them a beating and could do them some serious damage as a club.  There have been clubs who won promotion and turned it down ,for these very reasons.

 

My opinions on London and Bradford . Eventually the game will either have to spread, or it will contract and stay forever a local to Y/Lancs game( Cumbria ) London is worth persisting with, IMO because the game at lower levels appears to be going very very well, A successfull London club couls be very benificial in a few ways, If it can be seen to Work, Other areas could well want to follow the same path, with a bit of commitment.

 

Bradford to me have been one of the major successes of SL , up untill the last 4 or 5 years, The start of their troubles i would say was the Harris thing, I think It became a battle of power with Caisley and Leeds,

 

  Bradford ( having latched onto Keithley's idea) took it to the next level, and grasped the chance Summer Rugby presented, as well as anybody, They had probably some of the best ever crowds seen in SL for their Derby's with Leeds ( some of the best games ever on SL ) and right up there with the Wigan Saints games.

 My point is that this is just a few short years back, It's not back in the mists of time, Yes they have been badly mismanaged over the years, but that is no reason to lose thousands of Fans, who have proved they will turn up, even in bad times, MO is that both Bradford and Wakefield can be successful again, That said i don't think there is room in the so Calder area for more than one club, and i think that ultimately that club will be Wakefield.

 

I also think that W/Y would be  well covered with Leeds, Bradford, Huddersfield and Wakefield, Thats why i would have been happy to have seen Hudd's and Fax merge, If only that stadium had been built at Elland, But unfortunatly Town were major contributors.

 

I could see a system like Wellsy was putting forward had a lot going for it, but it suffered from the same as any other , Shortage of money, Indeed that is what plagues the game, In years gone by RL was safe in It's little enclave, when it was cheap to go and watch and your best matches were just down the road, Great days indeed, but well gone now.

 

The reallity of todays game is It has to have more Money, It has to get it's full share of sponsership, It has to increase the Sky contract, It has to up It's profile, Exactly like Union has done, and exactly like Oz has done, It has to get stadiums and facillities that people are prepared to go to, I know that Oz doesn't have to compete with soccer, but it does have Union and Aussie rules, The point is they have got out there and got there share of whats available. 

 

I don't see endlessly tinkering with Formats and Systems is going to somehow magically swell crowds to double and trebble their size, The game needs something along the lines Wellsy was promoting, but firstly It needs more money to allow that, Anything that has a diluting effect on SL to me will be a backward step, whether my club is in it or not.

 

You have to wonder if the Game can ever progress, Lindsey had a vision ( so to speak ) but most people derided him and thought it was all about Wigan, We have posters on here who state quite openly They would pack the game in before they would watch another team, And i do undestand the reasons , Their club is more important than the game to them, But somewhere down the line some people are going to have to face some unpleasant truth's.

 

I was really intested  in the thread about where the young players are being produced, it was enlightening in some ways, Wigan trained or born players spread all over the game, same with Leeds , These are the beacon clubs , they are what we should be aiming at, The same numbers came from the whole of the Calder area, and this is one of the better areas, The difference is that they leave Calder for better clubs, or their clubs have to sell them, The Wigan's and Leeds kids leave cause they can't get in the side,

 

We need those clubs and others like them to remain strong because there are other area's like mine that lag very badly ( even if improving ) we have been one club who have benefitted from Wigan's system particularly, and if League's best players are going to keep getting Poached , we need clubs like those .

 

I may seem to have wandered a bit , but i am trying to show that  weak clubs have a much better chance to grow, off big vibrant clubs , Thats why i am in favor of keeping the elite clubs elite.

 

Sorry if that's a bit drawn out.

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Yet you don't use this term when supporters of clubs that would benefit from the changes not being made, post. Strange that...

The clubs that would benefit are the clubs I'm talking about

 

Imho that benefit would be brief fraught and the inevitable disastrous outcome would no doubt be someone else's fault; the powers that be, wood, they might even dig Lindsay and caisley up

Edited by l'angelo mysterioso

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The clubs that would benefit are the clubs I'm talking about

 

Imho that benefit would be brief fraught and the inevitable disastrous outcome would no doubt be someone else's fault; the powers that be, wood, they might even dig Lindsay and caisley up

 

Hard to disagree with that.

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When the league split into divisions, Bramley were in the 1st division so they got their reward for finishing in a high league position in the 30 club table the previous season. So they got their fixture against Leeds.

If we ditch this fixed and weighted 3 x 8 nonsense and go back to straight p and r, the system is not designed to keep small clubs out, nor is it designed to get them in. It merely creates an opportunity for them to get to the top if the are able to grasp it.

Those clubs who would have been promoted and those relegated would have been reaping the rewards for their success or failure a the case may be. Dewsbury had previously been in the top division and were quite a decent side with decent attendances for some seasons. A second club in Leeds would not be a bad thing IMVHO. Sheffield is an expansion area. They are a well run club, they have had success on the field, there is a new purpose built ground proposed for them. If their finances could handle it, what's not to like. I bet Sky would relish a new market in a city the size of Sheffeld. My point is that these clubs would have been rewarded for their success and the relegated clubs penalised for their failure. As some on here like to constantly state. Life ain't fair.

Hull, Widnes and Huddersfield have all been relegated at various times and survived, luckily for them because p and r was in place and they had the opportunity to bounce back.

It strange you are championing Widnes, a small time team adjacent to a SL colossus, on well less than 10,000 crowds. These are exactly the criteria you claim are a recipe for disaster and a negative factor in the larger neighbour's prospects.

 

The irony there is that they wouldn't have got relegated so the lucky was also unlucky?

With P & R any club can overspend and make it to the top.....its when they are on the way back down the damage is caused......

If you look at the latest financial report for Bolton Wanderers it becomes clear the true effects of P & R (and they had a parachute payment)!

 

P & R is fine if the clubs are on a level playing field but you need to split into divisions of current ability....This model does not work in the 21st century!

 

The tier system in RL was to address this and works to a degree....At the lower end it is deemed sensible and is championed.........

 

tier 4 has P & R but once you hit the top division you need to apply and meet criteria to join tier 3,

 

Tier 3 has P & R and again you hit a plateau where you then need to apply and meet criteria to advance to tier 2,

 

once this championed logic is applied to Tier 2-1 it causes outrage!

 

Part of the issue is when tier 1 was expanded to 14 and 2 clubs failed they should have immediately shrunk back to 12.....

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What !!???

 

People in Sheffield are going to buy Sky boxes because Sheffield Eagles are in $uperleague ???

 

Let's keep this discussion realistic, please.

 

Incidentally, what's the record number of posts on a thread ?

 

Well apparently leigh fans will buy sky boxes if P&R returns........

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No. Clubs will have been denied their chance by their own inability to meet the conditions set before promotion can be achieved.

In the same way that a licence would not be issued to an insolvent team ( or so we were told). The difference is, if the standards were met, results on the field would determine promotion not KPMG or some committee in a smoke filled back room casting votes for their co conspirators and mates.

 

In the 21st century (a few people on here are still in the 20th/19th....) you cannot smoke inside public places......

 

Unless you are thinking 19th century and people still have coal fires..... 

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isn't it a theory that people in Wigan buy Sky boxes because Wigan are in SL. Why should Sheffield be different ?

I don't know the record. Have I broken it ? Do I get a gold star if I have. I don't see the problem. I am intersetd in this subject. I have my ideas. Other people have other ideas and challenge my points and I respond. Isn't that kind of thing the raison d'etre of this board ? I am retired and have time to play. I didn't realise a limitation on a certain number of posts was a requirement.

 

Because people in Sheffield aren't interested in Rugby League.  Those that are probably already have them for the soccer.

 

The "record" comment wasn't aimed at you particularly.  I just noticed we'd passed 2000 posts.

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