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l'angelo mysterioso

Civil Wars

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I have just read 'Homeage to Catalonia' by George Orwell. Very interesting read and a good indicator of why the Republic/Communists faltered in their resistance to Franco.

he certainly brought home the confusion and infighting  of it all and the hoplessness of the international brigades organisation. Funnily enough, today I've beenb reading aq bit about people who were figures in rugby league and their involvement i the international brigades.

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Of the top 9 conflicts (by deaths per year) only one (Mexico) isn't in an Islamic country.

 

Hard to say that he doesn't have a point.

 

It's an interesting page.  I don't know how accurate it is but I was surprised how few actual conflicts are ongoing currently.

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It's an interesting page.  I don't know how accurate it is but I was surprised how few actual conflicts are ongoing currently.

 

I am surprised about how low the conflicts in the Democratic Republic of Congo were... slightly dubious!

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Read Villa and Zapata by Frank McLynn about the Mexican Civil War. While the death toll was very high and the warfare often barbaric, he pointed that huge swathes of the country including Mexico City were left virtually untouched by the fighting.

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I have just read 'Homeage to Catalonia' by George Orwell. Very interesting read and a good indicator of why the Republic/Communists faltered in their resistance to Franco.

 

It certainly outlines Orwell's frustrations with what he found in Spain. I'm not sure it's that relevant as to how and why the Republicans lost. I think the roots of the war were more complex than many IB volunteers understood (or wanted to understand).

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 Funnily enough, today I've beenb reading aq bit about people who were figures in rugby league and their involvement i the international brigades.

 

That'd be good. What you got?

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Late post sorry

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I thought he was talking about "current" civil wars?

 

 

I thought he was talking about "current" civil wars?

what makes you think that?

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Islamic division is the cause of most current civil wars.

 

This

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That'd be good. What you got?

 

 

That'd be good. What you got?

John Clynes of Bradford and Bramley

Dai Davies of Batley

and a guy calledJoe Latus who wasn't a player, but whi ws involved with Hull Fc

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Because his post said this:

 

"Islamic division is the cause of most current civil wars."

 

Seems pretty clear to me, does it not to you?

 

 

 

 

Because his post said this:

 

"Islamic division is the cause of most current civil wars."

 

Seems pretty clear to me, does it not to you?

 

my apologies

a mix up of my own making

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and a guy called Joe Latus who wasn't a player, but whi ws involved with Hull Fc

Any relation to Sam? That can't be a common surname.

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Any relation to Sam? That can't be a common surname.

 

 

Any relation to Sam? That can't be a common surname.

dunno

it isn't exactly a common surname

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It certainly outlines Orwell's frustrations with what he found in Spain. I'm not sure it's that relevant as to how and why the Republicans lost. I think the roots of the war were more complex than many IB volunteers understood (or wanted to understand).

 

I am not stating it was the cause but certainly had a part to play. I am currently on a course at Sandhurst and we've been discussing Mao; he very cleverly used both the Communists and Nationalists (whilst subverting their cause) in order to defeat Imperial Japan before turning on the Nationalists openly post-1945. The point I am trying to make is the 'Republican' cause had no unifying purpose or use all of its resources to achieve the aim of defeating Franco.

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dunno

it isn't exactly a common surname

According to the GBNames public profiler, Hull has the highest concentration of people with that surname in the British Isles. Still probably not very many, though.

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I am not stating it was the cause but certainly had a part to play. I am currently on a course at Sandhurst and we've been discussing Mao; he very cleverly used both the Communists and Nationalists (whilst subverting their cause) in order to defeat Imperial Japan before turning on the Nationalists openly post-1945. The point I am trying to make is the 'Republican' cause had no unifying purpose or use all of its resources to achieve the aim of defeating Franco.

they were too busy arguing amongst themselves or being subverted by the soviets.

 

a large part of their equipment was obsolete, or non standard, and the standard of training of the highly idealistic international brigades was very poor.

The germans and the italians, especially the germans were rearming and Spain was the ideal testing ground for equipment, personnel and tactics

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According to the GBNames public profiler, Hull has the highest concentration of people with that surname in the British Isles. Still probably not very many, though.

worth finding out its origin

I wonder if it's viking

 

edit: polish

 

Hull has a long history of trading with the baltic ports-maybe a sailor or sailors liked it and stayed.

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they were too busy arguing amongst themselves or being subverted by the soviets.

 

a large part of their equipment was obsolete, or non standard, and the standard of training of the highly idealistic international brigades was very poor.

The germans and the italians, especially the germans were rearming and Spain was the ideal testing ground for equipment, personnel and tactics

 

I meant people by the term resource. That said, their equipment (on both sides) was poor until the wider influences such as the Germans and Soviets began arming each side respectively. In fact, doesn't Orwell mention that on returning to Barcelona from the Aragon front, he encountered well armed rear echelon troops much to his surprise? Another example of poor use of resources and a lack of application to the main war aim of defeating Franco.

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I am not stating it was the cause but certainly had a part to play. I am currently on a course at Sandhurst and we've been discussing Mao; he very cleverly used both the Communists and Nationalists (whilst subverting their cause) in order to defeat Imperial Japan before turning on the Nationalists openly post-1945. The point I am trying to make is the 'Republican' cause had no unifying purpose or use all of its resources to achieve the aim of defeating Franco.

 

Yes but.

 

I think the first thing we have to bear in mind when analysing the republicans as a fighting force is to say that the Spanish Army, its wealth of military expertise, experience and equipment was of course staunchly nationalist. Comparing an established army to an ad hoc collection of willing fighters with, as you say, little (often no) common purpose is always going to be difficult. That said, resources were wasted. More than that, republicans really failed, for a host of reasons, to attract wider world appeal for their cause. They 'lost' the propaganda battle on the international stage. Again, hardly surprising. When you look at the intellectuals and academics who led the 2nd republic at the time of its collapse, their lack of preparation for armed conflict is obvious. At times, sheer guts and bloodymindedness prolonged the whole thing, as well as a healthy dollop of nationalist incompetence.

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I think the first thing we have to bear in mind when analysing the republicans as a fighting force is to say that the Spanish Army, its wealth of military expertise, experience and equipment was of course staunchly nationalist. Comparing an established army to an ad hoc collection of willing fighters with, as you say, little (often no) common purpose is always going to be difficult.

 

I wouldn't disagree with that at all. On the flip side of the argument, it doesn't take long for an ad hoc collection of fighters to become battle hardened veterans after a few months on the frontline. But of course, even that doesn't account for the other factors involved in the whole situation.

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