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IM2

Widnes should be dropped from SL and have failed

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well now given the hiding Hull gave Widnes last night should Widnes be under similar scrutiny.

we are in our second season in super league this time around, and we have improved on last term, trade at a profit, have a robust academy structure, get an average crown of near 5000....................so your point is what exactly????

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ok, here goes a different tack,  which team has more home grown players?

or which one trades at a profit and has a near 5000 average crowd...............

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Widnes have won 7 games, London only 3.

 

Widnes have scored 581 points and London only 411.

 

Widnes have conceeded 767 points and London 850.

 

Widnes are 11th and London are 14th.

 

I didn't need to bring up attendances.

 

Can you name a single stat that has London ahead of Widnes?

U19s?

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i dont think either should be kicked out, i was actually just highlighting how silly the london argument is. widnes as made good progress and if anyone else had been beaten by 70 I would have used them as an example

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The brutal honest truth is that Widnes, London, Hull KR, Wakefield and Castleford should probably all be dropped from Super League. 

 

The bottom four or five clubs just aren't viable.

 

Singling out Widnes though is unfair considering they are one of the better smaller clubs.

not viable? can you explain that one to me please?

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U19s?

I have already said that London have a good academy but I can't see how under-19 results are the basis for which side should be in SL:

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What's that got to do with this year?

 

Actually we're not mind readers (except that we can conclude you are likely to twist anything due to your anti London hatred)

What's promotion and relegation got to do with this season's performance? The mind boggles.

 

If you would like to highlight which stat I've "twisted" that would be just lovely.

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i dont think either should be kicked out, i was actually just highlighting how silly the london argument is. widnes as made good progress and if anyone else had been beaten by 70 I would have used them as an example

I'd say that the "London argument" is based on a number of things such as them not having a regular home, their backer looking to pull out, them not signing players for next year, dramatically falling attendances etc - none of which apply to Widnes.

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not viable? can you explain that one to me please?

Pretty obvious really. They can't support fully professional clubs without artificial financing. They should have merged back in the 1990s before the backwoodsmen got their way.

Don't worry, with the reintroduction promotion and relegation the backswoodmen are being placated again. Regressive and backward.

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Recognise that this is a sarcastic thread given the bile shown by the anti London brigade last week but cannot resist challenging DuffDuff suggesting Hull KR should be dropped from SL. Ask any team coming to Craven Park whether they expect a tough game in front of a decent and vocal crowd.

Just watched Canberra lose 68-4 at home to the Storm, illustrates how a big score can so easily crop up between competitive sides.

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Recognise that this is a sarcastic thread given the bile shown by the anti London brigade last week but cannot resist challenging DuffDuff suggesting Hull KR should be dropped from SL. Ask any team coming to Craven Park whether they expect a tough game in front of a decent and vocal crowd.

Just watched Canberra lose 68-4 at home to the Storm, illustrates how a big score can so easily crop up between competitive sides.

But do Hull KR have any prospect of becoming self sustaining, with average crowds over 10,000 and with the ability to challenge the likes of Leeds and Wigan?

That is the problem I'm afraid. Maurice Lindsay might have been a bit over the top but he was right about what the top division of British Rugby League should look like. More like the uber competitive NRL than the uncompetitive and multi tiered set up you have in Premier League soccer.

All the reintroduction of promotion and relegation will achieve is to reinforce the cartel of that the big 2 or 3 Super League clubs already have. It is a massive step backwards.

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The ability to challenge Leed, Wigan, St Helens, Warrington, Hull etc on the field...already there after relatively few years in this elite league.

That must be a major factor as we all want to watch competitive rugby but cannot all be top teams at the same time. We had our times in the 80s and have seen remarkable on field progress over the last 8 years.

 

Crowds of 10,000.....first you have to build the stadium to hold that crowd, then you have to sell the product. Why argue to destroy what you have when you are almost there. Hull and Rovers derbies average over 20,000 at the KC so the city has the potential to support 2 clubs on your spurious 10,000 criteria. Income can also be generated through sponsorship and off field activities...it would help if the RFL did their bit with selling the game.

 

uber competitive NRL with 68-4 home defeats...

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Pretty obvious really. They can't support fully professional clubs without artificial financing.

Huddersfield? Bradford? Salford?

How did Warrington get to where they are?

Does it matter as long as they are solvent?

or were you just having a cheap dig?

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ok, here goes a different tack,  which team has more home grown players?

Probably Wigan but that's not really an achievement if the home grown players are not very good.

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We beat that by more at home in 2011 (82-6), that one didn't lead to as many calls to get rid of Quins (as they then were) as they were second in the league at the time.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_league/9425926.stm

That's it in a nutshell, when Bronquins had a better side and were in better shape off the field, there was less criticism of them following a heavy defeat. A bit like Widnes now.

 

So no real "anti-London" agenda,

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Pretty obvious really. They can't support fully professional clubs without artificial financing. They should have merged back in the 1990s before the backwoodsmen got their way.

Don't worry, with the reintroduction promotion and relegation the backswoodmen are being placated again. Regressive and backward.

I note from the cross-code forum that you are a very big RU fan. Are you against premiership RU who have P&R?.

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I note from the cross-code forum that you are a very big RU fan. Are you against premiership RU who have P&R?.

 

 

I note from the cross-code forum that you are a very big RU fan. Are you against premiership RU who have P&R?.

they don't have it

hence the lagal case with the immediately relegated London Welsh

 

by the way, and there is a connection how does professional union compare with professional rugby in terms of wealth, geographical spread and demography.

My point is that even though it doesn't have auto p and r it is in a far better position to sustain it than rugby.

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I note from the cross-code forum that you are a very big RU fan. Are you against premiership RU who have P&R?.

No I don't agree with promotion and relegation in Rugby Union either.

Rugby Union struggles to support a self sustaining professional competition with the Premiership and suffers from many of the same problems that Super League suffers from. Half the clubs unable to balance their books whilst the lack of security of income leads to a lack of rational commercial investment.

The bottom line is you can't have direct promotion and relegation between a fully professional and a semi professional competition. Without a functioning fully professional pyramid like soccer promotion and relegation gives clubs false incentives, encourages irresponsible behaviour, short term thinking and is destructive.

The best analogy I can think of is County cricket where there is no promotion and relegation between the First Class and Minor Counties. The gap in terms of infrastructure, off field administration, player development structures and everything else than separates a professional club from a semi pro one is just too great. Promotion and relegation is completely unsustainable if relegation means that the playing staff have to be laid off and half the back room staff end up losing their jobs too.

The idiotic London Welsh episode from the last Union season serves an ideal case in point. A shell of a professional club with no ground, no supporters, no player development infrastructure and no prospect of being self sustaining. I would estimate that at least £5 million was wasted by the RFU, Premier Rugby and London Welsh themselves on their bid for glory. Completely irrational and there are very sound reasons why the Union Premiership had established strict minimum entry standards, unfortunately the courts of law had other ideas.

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No I don't agree with promotion and relegation in Rugby Union either.

Rugby Union struggles to support a self sustaining professional competition with the Premiership and suffers from many of the same problems that Super League suffers from. Half the clubs unable to balance their books whilst the lack of security of income leads to a lack of rational commercial investment.

The bottom line is you can't have direct promotion and relegation between a fully professional and a semi professional competition. Without a functioning fully professional pyramid like soccer promotion and relegation gives clubs false incentives, encourages irresponsible behaviour, short term thinking and is destructive.

The best analogy I can think of is County cricket where there is no promotion and relegation between the First Class and Minor Counties. The gap in terms of infrastructure, off field administration, player development structures and everything else than separates a professional club from a semi pro one is just too great. Promotion and relegation is completely unsustainable if relegation means that the playing staff have to be laid off and half the back room staff end up losing their jobs too.

The idiotic London Welsh episode from the last Union season serves an ideal case in point. A shell of a professional club with no ground, no supporters, no player development infrastructure and no prospect of being self sustaining. I would estimate that at least £5 million was wasted by the RFU, Premier Rugby and London Welsh themselves on their bid for glory. Completely irrational and there are very sound reasons why the Union Premiership had established strict minimum entry standards, unfortunately the courts of law had other ideas.

 

Perfect summary and in a nutshell of where the RFL are about to take us back to - a refreshing post Mr Duff Duff and thanks for it. Its a shame your points will not be seen or listened too where it counts.

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Perfect summary and in a nutshell of where the RFL are about to take us back to - a refreshing post Mr Duff Duff and thanks for it. Its a shame your points will not be seen or listened too where it counts.

Seconded

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No I don't agree with promotion and relegation in Rugby Union either.

Rugby Union struggles to support a self sustaining professional competition with the Premiership and suffers from many of the same problems that Super League suffers from. Half the clubs unable to balance their books whilst the lack of security of income leads to a lack of rational commercial investment.

The bottom line is you can't have direct promotion and relegation between a fully professional and a semi professional competition. Without a functioning fully professional pyramid like soccer promotion and relegation gives clubs false incentives, encourages irresponsible behaviour, short term thinking and is destructive.

The best analogy I can think of is County cricket where there is no promotion and relegation between the First Class and Minor Counties. The gap in terms of infrastructure, off field administration, player development structures and everything else than separates a professional club from a semi pro one is just too great. Promotion and relegation is completely unsustainable if relegation means that the playing staff have to be laid off and half the back room staff end up losing their jobs too.

The idiotic London Welsh episode from the last Union season serves an ideal case in point. A shell of a professional club with no ground, no supporters, no player development infrastructure and no prospect of being self sustaining. I would estimate that at least £5 million was wasted by the RFU, Premier Rugby and London Welsh themselves on their bid for glory. Completely irrational and there are very sound reasons why the Union Premiership had established strict minimum entry standards, unfortunately the courts of law had other ideas.

County cricket might not have P & R but it does have promotion from Minor Counties to first class cricket. Just not every often and on a franchise basis. 

 

I can remember Durham being "elevated" in modern times.

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County cricket might not have P & R but it does have promotion from Minor Counties to first class cricket. Just not every often and on a franchise basis. 

 

I can remember Durham being "elevated" in modern times.

 

Yes. I might not agree with annual promotion and relegation but I don't believe in professional sport being a closed shop either. In cricket Glamorgan and Durham were admitted to the County Championship for sound strategic reasons and both at various stages have thrived. 

 

Durham are now a powerhouse of English cricket, which reflects the strength of the amateur game in the North East, but would they have developed into one of the strongest clubs in the country if they had been threatened with promotion and relegation? 

 

The same applies to North Queensland, Canberra,Newcastle and Auckland in the NRL or Catalans in the Super League. Rational investors and commercial interests are deterred if the money they put in can go up in smoke just because of the bounce of a ball or a dodgy referring decision. 

 

Because of the lack of sponsors and money these issues are particularly acute in Rugby League. Promotion and relegation is a backwards step. There are other credible ways of making Super League more competitive and attractive sponsors which have are much less destructive and wasteful. Regional conferencing, placing an emphasis on the representative and international game, using the 9s format, salary exemptions for expansion teams. The options are legion.  

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I'd say that the "London argument" is based on a number of things such as them not having a regular home, their backer looking to pull out, them not signing players for next year, dramatically falling attendances etc - none of which apply to Widnes.

but the fact is that this has happened to many clubs in many sports. my view is the game needs to take more responsibility for the game at the top level in London. if you think about it the Broncos and the other Champ sides in London get very little help from HQ. NO marketing, limited PR, no recognition of the fact no northern based player of any note will move to london for a fair cost, people dont even know the CC or the WC is happening. if my company was to set up a new business in New York we wouldnt give it the same resources as our established business it would get 'investment' disproportionate to ensure it grows and succeeds. london's success and failure is down to all of us rather than some poor bloke who is losing loads of money and getting it in the neck by everyone.

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but the fact is that this has happened to many clubs in many sports. my view is the game needs to take more responsibility for the game at the top level in London. if you think about it the Broncos and the other Champ sides in London get very little help from HQ. NO marketing, limited PR, no recognition of the fact no northern based player of any note will move to london for a fair cost, people dont even know the CC or the WC is happening. if my company was to set up a new business in New York we wouldnt give it the same resources as our established business it would get 'investment' disproportionate to ensure it grows and succeeds. london's success and failure is down to all of us rather than some poor bloke who is losing loads of money and getting it in the neck by everyone.

Good post!If the other SL clubs want a presence in London they should be prepared to sacrifice something for it! How about each of them taking £100K less from Sky, so that the London club gets £1.3M more? £1M could go towards an increased salary cap for them, so that they can attract the best players, and £300K to subsidise admission prices so that locals can be virtually dragged in for free. Gradually reduce this funding over 5 years, and if they cannot maintain success thenpull the plug and forget about London forever.

It might seem an odd suggestion from a Fev fan, but my club had to forego a Super League place for them in '95, yet no-one else is prepared to sacrifice anything to make them a success!

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