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John Drake

Ukip's Godfrey Bloom defends 'bongo bongo land' comments

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Then there wod be no political parties no elected governments

And we'd have government by plebiscite

What is popular changes all the time that is one if the reasons that it is dangerous to govern this way

The idea is that political parties, individuals, groups put forward what they believe in and try to persuade the electorate to vote for it or for a candidate as an individual

Instead we are rapidly going in the other direction democracy is becoming market lead

: politicians and their parties play up increasingly to the whims and prejudices of the electorate they wish to court. It's one if the reasons for the rise of ukip

I think this leads democracy down a dangerous road

There's nothing new about it there have been some classic examples 'do you want a ###### for a neighbour' in smethwick in the sixties for instance, but increasingly political parties are being led by the nose and not by their apparent principles

But that isn't the parties fault, that's a problem with the electorate. Why should a political party work hard when a catchy soundbite will do the job for them.

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People should be very careful about writing the Liberal off come 2015. The way the elections system works they could lose 10% of their popular vote and still only lose 4 or 5 seats. People should appreciate that many Liberal voters have right wing sentiments and are more than happy with their performance in government. People like Liberal MPs and they are notoriously difficult to remove once elected.

I'm not convinced that hordes will leave the LD's in 2015 either. They've campaigned for years on policies that were just about sane enough without having to actually implement them as we've had majority governments for so long. 2010 happens and they're thrown in at the deep end. They haven't sold their soul, they've done what any political party would have done.

From 1997 to 2010 how many LD policies actually came into being? From 2010 to the present, what's the number?

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Then there wod be no political parties no elected governments

And we'd have government by plebiscite

What is popular changes all the time that is one if the reasons that it is dangerous to govern this way

The idea is that political parties, individuals, groups put forward what they believe in and try to persuade the electorate to vote for it or for a candidate as an individual

Instead we are rapidly going in the other direction democracy is becoming market lead

: politicians and their parties play up increasingly to the whims and prejudices of the electorate they wish to court. It's one if the reasons for the rise of ukip

I think this leads democracy down a dangerous road

There's nothing new about it there have been some classic examples 'do you want a ###### for a neighbour' in smethwick in the sixties for instance, but increasingly political parties are being led by the nose and not by their apparent principles

Switzerland is governed directly by a series of referenda and it is one of the most effectively governed countries in Europe.

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Political correctness is what morons cry when their offensive ram kings are branded offensive.

How on earth this guy has got through life without realising the inappropriate nature of what he said is beyond me.

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But that isn't the parties fault, that's a problem with the electorate. Why should a political party work hard when a catchy soundbite will do the job for them.

 

 

But that isn't the parties fault, that's a problem with the electorate. Why should a political party work hard when a catchy soundbite will do the job for them.

I'm not saying its anybody's fault

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Political correctness is what morons cry when their offensive ram kings are branded offensive.

How on earth this guy has got through life without realising the inappropriate nature of what he said is beyond me.

 

 

Political correctness is what morons cry when their offensive ram kings are branded offensive.

How on earth this guy has got through life without realising the inappropriate nature of what he said is beyond me.

his got through life in this way because of the world he lives in: the world of golf club bars, the rugby clubs and cricket clubs that he mentions and so on. There are lots of people like him

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Switzerland is governed directly by a series of referenda and it is one of the most effectively governed countries in Europe.

 

 

Switzerland is governed directly by a series of referenda and it is one of the most effectively governed countries in Europe.

it depends what you mean by effective government.

also Switzerland is a small insular country with kittle cultural diversity, great wealth that isn't created by industry no foreign policy to speak of

 

I'm concerned that the uk is drifting towards being an intolerant illiberal xenophobic culturally narrow country. 

If governments and political parties become driven more and more by pandering to the prejudices and narrow self interest of a section of the population then the quality of our democracy and the standards that hold the country together will be increasingly diminished.

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The opinions polls show that after the economy the second most important issue affecting people's lives is immigration and border control. Until the mainstream political parties, especially those on the left, wake up to that fact and do something about it then UKIP's support will continue to grow.

 

Not for me it isn't. Apart from threads like this and inflammatory articles in certain newspapers I never give immigration a second thought. But then I don't perceive any adverse effect of immigration on my life. And I think that's the point; it's matter of perception. Far too many have been, for want of a better word, brainwashed in to seeing all foreigners as some type of threat and people to be feared. Who can blame them as just about all tabloid newspapers seem to pursue a deliberate campaign of only ever including stories about foreigners which portray them badly. A constant bombardment of negativity works to convince many people that all immigrants are illegal/dole scroungers/criminals.

 

Also, UKIP are a party of protest; they are against things and not for things, not a healthy stance to come from. Because once they get what the want and banish the first thing they are against, the EU Then what? Do they just quietly fade away, job done? What will the turn their attention on next? 

 

To me it is the thin end of the wedge, and I am reminded of this:

 

First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.
 
Then they came for the socialists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.
 
Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.
 
Then they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak for me.

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Switzerland is governed directly by a series of referenda and it is one of the most effectively governed countries in Europe.

It's also federal and they speak German, French, Italian and Romansch.

 

Should we adopt all that too?

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Two British teenage voluntary aid workers have had acid chucked in their faces today in Zanzibar, for the crime of being young women out on the street.

 

Sounds just like Bongo Bongo Land to me.

It's good that young women are never attacked in this country.

 

Or raped and have their rapes excused because they were being provocative by people who use phrases such as 'Bongo Bongo Land'.

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Well the rise is hostility to towards high levels of immigration poses move of a long term threat to the Labour Party than anyone else. It is pretty clear that the middle class left-liberal faction that controls the Labour Party is detached from the core support base it claims to represent. UKIP aren't an anomaly. They are part of a trend that has swept Western Europe and has undermined the pro immigration parties of the left in a number of countries. Those parties of the left claim to represent the interests of th labour but at the same time they follow policies that threaten the labour force's well being.

The emergence of UKIP has shifted the public debate on a whole range of issues rightwards and the opinion polls show that the Conservatives are more in tune with the public mood on a whole range of key issues. The economy, welfare, immigration, Europe. Labour has been rooted to the spot and has merely been seen to defend the status quo. A status quo that is completely unsustainable.

UKIP and the Liberals are completely different from one another. UKIP are a centralised single issue party that focuses on the EU and its impact regarding immigration. The Liberals on the other hand are a decentralised political party that use a combination of localism and opportunism to gain support. The Liberals in Manchester, Sheffield and Leeds appeal to a completely different set of people and values to the Liberals in places like Cheltenham, Bath, Chelmsford and Kingston Upon Thames.

People should be very careful about writing the Liberal off come 2015. The way the elections system works they could lose 10% of their popular vote and still only lose 4 or 5 seats. People should appreciate that many Liberal voters have right wing sentiments and are more than happy with their performance in government. People like Liberal MPs and they are notoriously difficult to remove once elected.

I'm not convinced that hordes will leave the LD's in 2015 either. They've campaigned for years on policies that were just about sane enough without having to actually implement them as we've had majority governments for so long. 2010 happens and they're thrown in at the deep end. They haven't sold their soul, they've done what any political party would have done.

From 1997 to 2010 how many LD policies actually came into being? From 2010 to the present, what's the number?

Many people that I know would have been Liberal supporters. A mixture of students and people with left-leaning sympathies but unhappy with Labour's performance.

However most of those people would be unlikely to vote Liberal again because of their performance in this parliament. There is the perception that they have sold out their beliefs for a bit of power. I've said it before but almost anybody that voted Liberal didn't vote for this governments policies.

The Liberals were a protest vote in that many voted for them in opposition to the two main parties without being overly sure of everything they stand for. UKIP are the same although not obviously the same people, they are currently there for single issue people and people fed up with the Tories on a number of issues such as Gay marriage.

Whether people will vote for them or not is another thing, who can forget the 30% that the Liberals were gonna get in the last election?

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it depends what you mean by effective government.

also Switzerland is a small insular country with kittle cultural diversity, great wealth that isn't created by industry no foreign policy to speak of

 

I'm concerned that the uk is drifting towards being an intolerant illiberal xenophobic culturally narrow country. 

If governments and political parties become driven more and more by pandering to the prejudices and narrow self interest of a section of the population then the quality of our democracy and the standards that hold the country together will be increasingly diminished.

Little cultural diversity? It has three co equal cultures that are recognised by its canton system.

Also why is cultural diversity a good thing? Why is female genital mutilation, forced marriage, polygamy, engrained mysogny and religious extremism enriching? I fail to see the positives.

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Little cultural diversity? It has three co equal cultures that are recognised by its canton system.

Also why is cultural diversity a good thing? Why is female genital mutilation, forced marriage, polygamy, engrained mysogny and religious extremism enriching? I fail to see the positives.

You must have had some pretty bad experiences is that's all you've seen of cultural diversity.

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Little cultural diversity? It has three co equal cultures that are recognised by its canton system.

Also why is cultural diversity a good thing? Why is female genital mutilation, forced marriage, polygamy, engrained mysogny and religious extremism enriching? I fail to see the positives.

 

 

Little cultural diversity? It has three co equal cultures that are recognised by its canton system.

Also why is cultural diversity a good thing? Why is female genital mutilation, forced marriage, polygamy, engrained mysogny and religious extremism enriching? I fail to see the positives.

that's right little cultural diversity

female genital mutilation,  forced marriage, polygamy, religious extremism are illegal in the uk

ingrained misogyny: well the subject of this thread has form in that department and I dont think he's an immigrant and are you saying it doesn't exist in switzerland?

 

my point was that the for of Government that Switzerland uses is irrelevant to the uk

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Not for me it isn't. Apart from threads like this and inflammatory articles in certain newspapers I never give immigration a second thought. But then I don't perceive any adverse effect of immigration on my life. And I think that's the point; it's matter of perception. Far too many have been, for want of a better word, brainwashed in to seeing all foreigners as some type of threat and people to be feared. Who can blame them as just about all tabloid newspapers seem to pursue a deliberate campaign of only ever including stories about foreigners which portray them badly. A constant bombardment of negativity works to convince many people that all immigrants are illegal/dole scroungers/criminals.

 

Also, UKIP are a party of protest; they are against things and not for things, not a healthy stance to come from. Because once they get what the want and banish the first thing they are against, the EU Then what? Do they just quietly fade away, job done? What will the turn their attention on next? 

 

To me it is the thin end of the wedge, and I am reminded of this:

 

First they came for the communists,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

 

Then they came for the socialists,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.

 

Then they came for the trade unionists,

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

 

Then they came for me,

and there was no one left to speak for me.

Where do you live? If you live in any number of London Boroughs, the West Midlands and certain towns like Lincoln and Peterborough you have witnessed the places where you live demographically transformed over the last decade or so.

Also there are severe pressures on health care services, transport, primary schools and the housing stock in many parts of the country. It is a real problem that affects millions of people's lives. England was already a densely populated country and didn't the need importation of a great mass of unskilled labour.

If you don't acknowledge this is a huge problem then you are in the same place as the Labour Party, which isn't great.

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that's right little cultural diversity

female genital mutilation,  forced marriage, polygamy, religious extremism are illegal in the uk

ingrained misogyny: well the subject of this thread has form in that department and I dont think he's an immigrant and are you saying it doesn't exist in switzerland?

 

my point was that the for of Government that Switzerland uses is irrelevant to the uk

Switzerland is very culturally diverse. It has four official languages and a federal structure that respects the rights of German, French and Italian Swiss. In many ways Swiss national identity is completely divorced from notions of ethnicity and the nation state. If that isn't cultural diversity I don't what is. Its about as cultural diverse as Canada, Brazil or South Africa where there has been a long history of different cultural groups co-existing.

I fail to see how the importation of primitive cultures from the Third World which possess values and norms that are utterly opposed to British society's values and norms is a positive. I must have missed something.

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Where do you live? If you live in any number of London Boroughs, the West Midlands and certain towns like Lincoln and Peterborough you have witnessed the places where you live demographically transformed over the last decade or so.

 

 

 

 Yeah I used to live in a nice working class area, now its full of middle class ######s

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Switzerland is very culturally diverse. It has four official languages and a federal structure that respects the rights of German, French and Italian Swiss. In many ways Swiss national identity is completely divorced from notions of ethnicity and the nation state. If that isn't cultural diversity I don't what is. Its about as cultural diverse as Canada, Brazil or South Africa where there has been a long history of different cultural groups co-existing.

I fail to see how the importation of primitive cultures from the Third World which possess values and norms that are utterly opposed to British society's values and norms is a positive. I must have missed something.

 

 

Switzerland is very culturally diverse. It has four official languages and a federal structure that respects the rights of German, French and Italian Swiss. In many ways Swiss national identity is completely divorced from notions of ethnicity and the nation state. If that isn't cultural diversity I don't what is. Its about as cultural diverse as Canada, Brazil or South Africa where there has been a long history of different cultural groups co-existing.

I fail to see how the importation of primitive cultures from the Third World which possess values and norms that are utterly opposed to British society's values and norms is a positive. I must have missed something.

let's put it another way: how culturally diverse is switzerland compared to say the US, The UK, France, Ireland even?

 

if people come to live in the UK then they abide by the laws of the UK. What are british societies values and norms? 

Presumably you are ok with immigrants from the EU since they are not from the third world.

Those third world people you so despise have lived in this country for generations and have contributed to its economy and its culture.

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Many people that I know would have been Liberal supporters. A mixture of students and people with left-leaning sympathies but unhappy with Labour's performance.However most of those people would be unlikely to vote Liberal again because of their performance in this parliament. There is the perception that they have sold out their beliefs for a bit of power. I've said it before but almost anybody that voted Liberal didn't vote for this governments policies.The Liberals were a protest vote in that many voted for them in opposition to the two main parties without being overly sure of everything they stand for. UKIP are the same although not obviously the same people, they are currently there for single issue people and people fed up with the Tories on a number of issues such as Gay marriage.Whether people will vote for them or not is another thing, who can forget the 30% that the Liberals were gonna get in the last election?

Again where do you live?

Most of the Liberal seats are held in the south of England and a large proportion of the vote they receive in affluent towns like Cheltenham, Bath, Eastbourne, Winchester, Yeovil, Kingston, Cambridge, Colchester etc is from its community base in local government. They are localists more than anything and they take their votes from middle class people who are civic minded and want the best deal for their local area. There isn't going to be a great Liberal wipeout in these heartland areas.

As I said the Liberals could loose a lot of soft voters nationwide and a large percentage of their popular vote but they will still hang on to a lot of their seats. That is the way first past the post works.

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let's put it another way: how culturally diverse is switzerland compared to say the US, The UK, France, Ireland even?

 

if people come to live in the UK then they abide by the laws of the UK. What are british societies values and norms? 

Presumably you are ok with immigrants from the EU since they are not from the third world.

Those third world people you so despise have lived in this country for generations and have contributed to its economy and its culture.

Well Switzerland has a far longer history and tradition of cultural diversity than either the France, Ireland or England for that matter and it stretches all the way back to the 16th century. Switzerland is basically bits of Germany, France and Italy stick together and its people are a mixture of all three. It been that way for hundreds of years.

Where did I say I despised immigrants from the Third World and Eastern Europe?

What are British values and norms? I can't believe you are seriously asking that question. I assume you have lived in the UK for a long time so they are pretty self evident.

I don't have any problem with immigration as long as it is strictly controlled, is for the economic benefit of the UK and the immigrants themselves make an effort to integrate and engage with mainstream British society so their children and grand children become a seamless part of British society. I couldn't give a damn if they were black, brown, pink, yellow or blue. Look at the West Indian or Cypriot community. Second and third generation West Indians and Cypriots are just as likely to marry someone from outside their community as someone from within it. That is called integration.

What I do have a problem with is when people hold views and patterns of behaviour that are in direct conflict with the norms of British society and expect people in the UK to change their way of life to accommodate them. That is wrong in my book. If you don't agree with the British way of life the why choose to live in the UK.

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 I've said it before but almost anybody that voted Liberal didn't vote for this governments policies.

The Liberals were a protest vote in that many voted for them in opposition to the two main parties without being overly sure of everything they stand for.

Well, the first thing is NHS privatisation, it's there in the LD manifesto. As it is in the Conservative's and Labour's. All 3 dress it up in such lovely language though.

The LD's are part of this government, so if you voted for them, you've got exactly what you voted for. Claiming it was a "protest" is, quite frankly, ######, a protest vote is a vote for the bloke who says he'll sit in parliament in a mankini or something, it's not a vote for the 3rd main party who had every chance of influencing the make up of the government due to the closeness of the 2 main parties.

LD voters should be chuffed to bits, they'll have policies introduced as well as the ones they can't stand instead of watching from the sidelines while policies they can't stand are introduced.

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Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.
 
Then they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak for me.

 

Trade Unionists won't speak up for anyone not in their cosy little clubs.

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Trade Unionists won't speak up for anyone not in their cosy little clubs.

 

 

Now you're losing it, one of the reasons right wingers have criticised unions in the past is for "sticking their noses in where its nothing to do with them" 

 

Remember milions of trade unionists taking a day of action in support of the health workers a few years back?

 

Facts please, not opinons or prejudices.

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Trade Unionists won't speak up for anyone not in their cosy little clubs.

Now you're being obtuse, you can substitute any of the groups in the poem for another but its meaning remains the same.

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