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South Wakefield Sharks

Does London need a top-class Super League club? (Merged Threads)

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Listened to IM2 on Ian Ramsdale's podcast and he was talking absolute sense about the need for consolidation and centralisation of resources in the capital.

All this talk of semi pro/pro clubs in every corner of town is lovely but in real terms the game needs to be a bit more pragmatic and, as Hector says, a bricks & mortar legacy is essential.

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For arguments sake, if they had a sugar daddy who could bankroll a full spend of a doubled salary cap, would you be in favour of an increased cap for London?

I'd be in favour of an increased salary cap that was calculated from the average London weighting used in different industries.

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Listened to IM2 on Ian Ramsdale's podcast and he was talking absolute sense about the need for consolidation and centralisation of resources in the capital.

All this talk of semi pro/pro clubs in every corner of town is lovely but in real terms the game needs to be a bit more pragmatic and, as Hector says, a bricks & mortar legacy is essential.

It would be fantatic if Skolars owned their own ground and it makes sense for the RFL to base some of their operations there but I don't know how either Broncos or Skolars can expand their fanbases if they are located at the same ground.

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It would be fantatic if Skolars owned their own ground and it makes sense for the RFL to base some of their operations there but I don't know how either Broncos or Skolars can expand their fanbases if they are located at the same ground.

That's my take on it too. Whilst it's nice to think they could both just happily play at the same ground, the real issue would be the competition for fans. How can two already small RL clubs grow if they are competing with each other for the same fans? It just doubles the task.

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Exactly, Northern Sol/Wellsy, you'd just end up with a situation where the team merges.

 

If they can be run sustainably as separate entities then it makes sense. It could even create rivalries & derbies as per Crusaders/Scorpians.

 

Red Rooster - All will be revealed in due course. Steve O'Connor, Adam Pearson and the good Doctor weren't avid rugby league fans when they took over their respective clubs, were they? You may think the Broncos are ready for roosting but fortunately not everyone has your doom and gloom outlook in life. If they take a step back, regroup, get the right structure in place and build links with the local communities of Edgware and Barnet, then we may well see the Broncos bucking again

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That's my take on it too. Whilst it's nice to think they could both just happily play at the same ground, the real issue would be the competition for fans. How can two already small RL clubs grow if they are competing with each other for the same fans? It just doubles the task.

Is the solution for the top club in London to always play out of the same stadium? We're not going to get an Arsenl, Spurs, Chelsea etc etc type scenario in London, so is the idea of the Broncos beng a part of their community in the same way those soccer clubs or Wigan, Wire or Leeds are realistic?

I wonder if the model would not be better if there were a number of semi-pro clubs around the capital, embedded in their community (eg Skolars, Hemel, Medway) and then to have the top club (currently the Broncos) as a club that plays its matches around the capital. There are loads of suitable venues already available.

Could the top London club not play at various stadia around the capital, with the venue promoting the match? In other aspects of entertainment it is what happens. Musicians, comedians etc take their show to different venues, so is their a reason why this could not happen to top level RL in the capital.

To shift the balance from the Broncos hiring a venue to play, to one where the venue pays the Bronocs to bring their match to their stadium. It is the sort of thing that has been trialled with host cities bidding for the World Cup.

Clearly at the moment I couldn't see someone like Watford offering the Broncos much to host Broncos v Wakey in front of 2,000 people, but wonder if it might be a better long-term model, rather than the idea of the Broncos having their own long-term ground in London.

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That's my take on it too. Whilst it's nice to think they could both just happily play at the same ground, the real issue would be the competition for fans. How can two already small RL clubs grow if they are competing with each other for the same fans? It just doubles the task.

Hector McNeil is smart enough to know that the support for London RL is not divided on district lines anyway. London RL relies on a core of diehards who are prepared to travel round the capital for their fix; many already alternate their support between Broncos, Skolars and perhaps other clubs already.

The reason Hector and others are advocating a central base is that having two clubs playing on alternate weekends will make the prospect of tripartite ownership much more viable than having one underfunded club trying to go it alone.

The fact is, Skolars and Broncos don't compete for fans and the truth is, however nice the notion may be, we're probably never going to have a Chelsea/Arsenal or Wasps/Saracens scenario, let alone a cluster of Championship level clubs around the capital.

The Skolars' steady growth is down to hard work and pragmatism and the pragmatic option is to have a London club playing at each tier of the current 'pyramid' and for the sport to establish a bricks and mortar presence in the capital.

Sticking pins on the map from Deptford to Chiswick is fun but, in the real world, consolidation makes more sense.

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The more london or south east clubs the better for me.

Hopefully they will all work together to sell RL to the masses 'to the point were they have 10k or more paying spectators between them.

Maybe then they can kick on as individual clubs, or they could start looking at merging to form stronger clubs that can compete at a higher level

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The ideal scenario would be for the RFL to buy both the New River AND invest in another ground for the Broncos somewhere else.

Broncos moving in at the New River would just see the Skolars get assimilated and that would be bad IMO given the Broncos awful track record.

I would prefer the Skolars and their brand be the recipient of any potential base for the RFL. With a bit of luck we'll see the Skolars in the second division within a couple of years and maybe we'll have a proper London derby with tge Broncos and Skolars fighting for promotion to SL. Maybe thats the sort of scenario that will get folk out of the woodwork in London. There are a lot of Northern exiles in London who could help to form bedrock support for both clubs

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The Northern Exiles are barely able to support one club though, let alone two chasing the same fans.

If there was a fullscale coming together of the London clubs, I'd expect it to be Skolars led anyway.

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The Broncos are preparing or life in the Championship and will never return to Super League. They will just become a feeder club for Super League clubs.

 

Feeding what? To quote Red Rooster if anyone missed it........

 

There are four Professional Rugby Union clubs that would love the RFL to set up an academy in London.  Has it not occured to anyone to think that given the choice of relocation to the north or the chance of a professional career in the South promising youngsters will opt for Union almost everytime.

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 With a bit of luck we'll see the Skolars in the second division within a couple of years and maybe we'll have a proper London derby with the Broncos and Skolars fighting for promotion to SL.

 

Really?

 

Well at least I heard it here first.

 

Look forward to South Wales Scorpions.v.North Wales Crusaders battle for an SL place too.

 

I think Red Rooster should be told?

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Really?

Well at least I heard it here first.

Look forward to South Wales Scorpions.v.North Wales Crusaders battle for an SL place too.

I think Red Rooster should be told?

This cheerful notion that we should have championship clubs scattered everywhere kind of misses one key fact: the existing CC1 clubs are only sustainable because of the £70,000 they get from the RFL (some are struggling regardless). Where are the extra £70ks gonna come from to fund a glut of extra clubs?

The RFL and the game itself needs to be really pragmatic about where it places its resources.

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Accurate as ever

Amazing cynicism from someone with 119 posts. Tell me what name did you used to post under before you were banned.

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Amazing cynicism from someone with 119 posts. Tell me what name did you used to post under before you were banned.

 

Never been banned. 0 out of 2 now

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Never been banned. 0 out of 2 now

Then how can you possibly comment on how accurate my posts are?

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Then how can you possibly comment on how accurate my posts are?

 

On a balance of probabilities I suppose you may have got one or two things right out of your 15200 posts. Then again a broken clock is correct twice a day

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On a balance of probabilities I suppose you may have got one or two things right out of your 15200 posts. Then again a broken clock is correct twice a day

You must have read about 10 of my posts and you think you can extrapolate to 15,000 from that.

And you think I'm the one with the problem with accuracy....

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This cheerful notion that we should have championship clubs scattered everywhere kind of misses one key fact: the existing CC1 clubs are only sustainable because of the £70,000 they get from the RFL (some are struggling regardless). Where are the extra £70ks gonna come from to fund a glut of extra clubs?

The RFL and the game itself needs to be really pragmatic about where it places its resources.

 

Indeed, the thread on Scorpions exposes the reality of how these clubs are created by subsidy. The record of CC and CC1 clubs producing professional players in any number isn't even there, and they don't attract fans in any number either. There's no business strength in numbers and if anything swallows money and wastes it it's CC clubs. In SL clubs attract heavy private investment, clubs attract paying fans in their thousands and clubs develop professional players - even London Broncos.

 

The singular contrived arguments against foreigners like London taking SL slots and "not knowing their place" include how Celtic Crusaders "wasted" millions in their failed venture, that the league contains nearly 30 clubs who have thrown money at trying to make RL work is forgotten. IMHO bottom line is the best possible payback for RL is from well structured SL clubs with everything the game has invested into that, but I have to credit Mo Lyndsay with that solid idea. Sentiment and fantasy don't pay bills.

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You must have read about 10 of my posts and you think you can extrapolate to 15,000 from that.

And you think I'm the one with the problem with accuracy....

 

 

Jeff has been a member longer than you... maybe some people just aren't as gobby as others?

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Indeed, the thread on Scorpions exposes the reality of how these clubs are created by subsidy. The record of CC and CC1 clubs producing professional players in any number isn't even there, and they don't attract fans in any number either. There's no business strength in numbers and if anything swallows money and wastes it it's CC clubs. In SL clubs attract heavy private investment, clubs attract paying fans in their thousands and clubs develop professional players - even London Broncos.

The singular contrived arguments against foreigners like London taking SL slots and "not knowing their place" include how Celtic Crusaders "wasted" millions in their failed venture, that the league contains nearly 30 clubs who have thrown money at trying to make RL work is forgotten. IMHO bottom line is the best possible payback for RL is from well structured SL clubs with everything the game has invested into that, but I have to credit Mo Lyndsay with that solid idea. Sentiment and fantasy don't pay bills.

I wouldn't endorse that, Parky. The Chsmpionship clubs are vital and worthy of the RFL's time and investment; we just need to be realistic about how many the governing body can feasibly subsidise and be extremely selective/pragmatic when deciding where to invest.

If we could afford Championship clubs in every shire, I'd be all for it, but we can't.

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Really interesting article in League Express today by Hector McNeil on the need for the Broncos to be in the top flight. Also sets out a strategy for the game in London, which on the face of it seems to make a lot of sense.

I think though that he hits the nail on the head with the following comment: "What is needed is investment, vision, guts and leadership from all involved. My fear is the game doesn't have the intellectual capacity or experience to see and deliver this as we stand."

Our game is a democracy, and I think that last sentence from Hector has been the problem for our game throughout its history.

Do those charged with running the top 14 clubs in this country have the "intellectual capacity or experience" to set and deliver a vision for the future growth of the game?

Ask fans of clubs like Wakey, Cas, Salford, Bulls etc whether the people running their clubs in recent years have that "intellectual capacity or experience"!!!!

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Jeff has been a member longer than you... maybe some people just aren't as gobby as others?

He's gobby enough in this thread.

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League Express - Mon 24th July 2017

Rugby League World - August 2017