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walter sobchak

England's backs

163 posts in this topic

Agree totally except the part about Smith. Tomkins isn't far off Slater thats true. But I don't think any of our Hookers are anywhere close to Smith. Smith is pretty much exceptional in every aspect of the game and can control a game much better than our hookers. Without Smith in the side I don't think Aus will be half as efficient.

 

Thurston has been abit patchy this season, although I suspect he has been carrying an injury. Our wingers are better than Aus', centres apart from Inglis we aren't light years apart.

 

Only the hardcore NRL addicts think the majority of the England side are miles behind, but people who watch both leagues with an open mind can see that we can beat Aus this year. It's just the half backs we are struggling with and they tend to make the biggest impact in the important matches.

 

Your first paragraph is accurate to a fault. Cameron Smith is a R/L freak and as you say his ability to control agame is without equal presently and possibly ever, so far in the games history. I would admit that he possibly has not had the domination he has enjoyed at club level this last season, due to the emergence ofother sides capable of matching those around him at Melbourne.

 

I would also state that should Cronk not be available the man to replace him would I fear offer more threat than he does, Cherry-Evans is I believe the best and most effective scrum half in the NRL and a loss of Cronk in the Aussie side could prove for us more of a hindrance than an help.

 

 I cannot agree with your assumption that we are comparable in the threequarters however, yet again as you say the halves our the biggest detriment to Englands hopes as they are not in what appears the case of our coaches preferred choices, anywhere close to being competent enough.

 

To give an example, Charnley has scored 41 tries in S/L to top the try list, in Oz the top scorers, three of them, are on 19 tries each currently. Two questions: (a) how many tries do you then believe Charnley would have got compared with all of those inferior wingers you are pointing to in the NRL and (B) which does this imply that Charnley is twice the winger that those within the NRL or, that the defences in S/L are simply not strong enough to stop so many tries from one man?

 

Think it over. For if as I have, you have watched the NRL throughout this season you will , or may have, noticed that for a winger to score in the NRL is quite a different story than it is in S/L, and comparing like for like is not alway's really accurate in the final analysis.

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but they are'nt hodges & inglis....they are nothing to be scared of!

 

Along with Matai ( Kiwi) Jennings has been probably the stand out centre in the NRL this season and is pure class. Tate would walk into any thirteen to be selected in that position over, possibly, the past ten seasons, he is one of the best competitiors still goin around in the NRL and cannot be left out of the origin sides chosen for seasons past unless injured.

 

Which of our centre's do you believe would make either Origin side?

You could have to eat those words come the end of November, dismissing Jennings and Tate in that manner is just crazy.

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can we stop put nz up there with australia please...they are an absolute shower of a side with a worse coach than we have ,who have'nt beat us in england for 8 years.....in fact i predict they'll struggle in their group let alone challange us or australia....

 

Ha Ha, go on stop joking, you are joking I take it aren't you?

 

The NZ pack is formidable and the backs are pretty well alright too.

 

Bromwich

Luke

Matalino

Mannering

Williams

Smith J

 

with

Eastmond

Pritchard

Nuasalla

Procter

Harris

Leuluei

McKendry

Taylor

to pick the rest from in the pack

 

Locke

Vatuvai

Hurrell

Matai

Nightingale

 

Foran

Johnson

 

Kenny-Dowell

Perrot

Hoffman

Inu

Tuivasa schek

Glenn

 

Yep your spot on with yet another assessment there.

 

PS got any tips for the G/National next year :sclerosis: ?

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So what is your argument based on one game? Are you Steve MacNamara?

I suspect you'd argue he shouldn't be picked even if he won man of the match in every game between now and the World Club challenge...

You've decided you hate Cudjoe so that's all there is to it.

 

I do not hate anyone,least of all Cudjnoe. I make known my view purely upon what I see as his ability or non-ability to play R/L at an International level.

 

If you believe that I have come to my conclusion taking only one match into consideration then I will not bother to pursue an argument further on the subject with you, as you say thats all there is to it.

 

PS, MOM and winning it. That all depends upon the standard the game is set within and the capability of the opposition you are facing, does'nt it?   

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Hell, that's an impressive post to type one-handed.

 

Takes one to know one what :P .

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Ha Ha, go on stop joking, you are joking I take it aren't you?

 

The NZ pack is formidable and the backs are pretty well alright too.

 

Bromwich

Luke

Matalino

Mannering

Williams

Smith J

 

with

Eastmond

Pritchard

Nuasalla

Procter

Harris

Leuluei

McKendry

Taylor

to pick the rest from in the pack

 

Locke

Vatuvai

Hurrell

Matai

Nightingale

 

Foran

Johnson

 

Kenny-Dowell

Perrot

Hoffman

Inu

Tuivasa schek

Glenn

 

Yep your spot on with yet another assessment there.

 

PS got any tips for the G/National next year :sclerosis: ?

Not sure that SBW has made himself available, while matai has opted for Samoa and hurrell for tonga. Either way it's still a formidable looking kiwi side.

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Your first paragraph is accurate to a fault. Cameron Smith is a R/L freak and as you say his ability to control agame is without equal presently and possibly ever, so far in the games history. I would admit that he possibly has not had the domination he has enjoyed at club level this last season, due to the emergence ofother sides capable of matching those around him at Melbourne.

 

I would also state that should Cronk not be available the man to replace him would I fear offer more threat than he does, Cherry-Evans is I believe the best and most effective scrum half in the NRL and a loss of Cronk in the Aussie side could prove for us more of a hindrance than an help.

 

 I cannot agree with your assumption that we are comparable in the threequarters however, yet again as you say the halves our the biggest detriment to Englands hopes as they are not in what appears the case of our coaches preferred choices, anywhere close to being competent enough.

 

To give an example, Charnley has scored 41 tries in S/L to top the try list, in Oz the top scorers, three of them, are on 19 tries each currently. Two questions: (a) how many tries do you then believe Charnley would have got compared with all of those inferior wingers you are pointing to in the NRL and ( B) which does this imply that Charnley is twice the winger that those within the NRL or, that the defences in S/L are simply not strong enough to stop so many tries from one man?

 

Think it over. For if as I have, you have watched the NRL throughout this season you will , or may have, noticed that for a winger to score in the NRL is quite a different story than it is in S/L, and comparing like for like is not alway's really accurate in the final analysis.

 

I think Smith is the best player in the world, you'll probably agree with that.

 

Difference between Cronk and Cherry Evans is the understanding between them and Smith and Slater. It's the difference in the NRL and the difference at origin level IMO.

 

Three quarters we'll never agree if im honest.

 

The winger point you've just taken a stat and pretty much taken it out of context. Josh Charnley has scored 32 tries in super league this year from 27 games. An average of 1.18 tries per game. The three NRL players have scored 19 tries from presumably 24 games so an average on 0.8 tries per game. So they aren't light years apart. The closest person to Charnley tries wise is Joel Monaghan has scored 23 tries from 27 games an average of 0.85 tries per game. So apart from Charnley, the top end NRL try scorers are pretty similar for tries to game ratio to those in SL, apart from Charnley of course.

 

More stats for you here if you like:

 

Average number of points in an NRL games - 40 points

Average number of points in an SL game - 49 points

 

So in reality there is 25% more points scored in an SL game compared to a NRL game based on figures. Why does Charnley have higher than 25% more tries than his Aussies counter parts. Maybe its the fact Charnley has been good not the other defences shocking. If you are going o the averages then the SL top try scorer should have a tries to game ratio of bang on 1 per game, but he doesn't he has 20% more than he should which indicates he is still doing exceptional rather than the competition being poor. That's obviously assuming the goal kicking accuracy in the NRL is similar to that of SL (please don't argue that the NRL is far more superior in that) So there's stats for you.

 

Now lets jump out of stats and talk about RL. Why in 2011 did Ryan Hall completely out class his opposition wingers in the games he played against Aus. He has consistently scored against opposition from the southern hemisphere since 2011 in WCC games and also internationals. The thing is as well though, Ryan Hall hasn't even been the best winger in SL these last couple of years. You're analysis that something which succeeds in SL means it still won't succeed in the NRL is just untrue. I agree the NRL is a better league and an all round much higher standard, but you need to pull your head out of the ground and see that the top end of SL can cut it in the NRL and international level and that some of them are a match for the Aussies, despite what league they play in.

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Personally I think the biggest hurdle the England team has to overcome is endurance.  We wilt at 60 minutes.  We can all speculate why that is but it is a known and consistent fact that we actually do.  If McNamara with all the (comparatively immense) resources at his disposal can turn that around even if we don't have the talent of our Australian/Kiwi counterparts to hand - and who knows who is going to play up on the international stage - increasing our endurance levels to the full 80 minutes would stand us in a whole greater stead to actually win the game than has been the case for years.  Throw in tweaking tactics and players between games one and two and we could be on to a winning formula. 

 

Incidentally, I have watched almost every game from the NRL this year so I do know how they play, and I don't understand ( a ) why we drool over the NRL or ( b ) why we are so afraid of anything coming out of there.

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They play at a higher standard on a consistent level . It's a step across to international level for the ANZACS . For us it's a big step up , and over 80 minutes of a single game and back to back games in a series it eventually shows .

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I think Smith is the best player in the world, you'll probably agree with that.

 

Difference between Cronk and Cherry Evans is the understanding between them and Smith and Slater. It's the difference in the NRL and the difference at origin level IMO.

 

Three quarters we'll never agree if im honest.

 

The winger point you've just taken a stat and pretty much taken it out of context. Josh Charnley has scored 32 tries in super league this year from 27 games. An average of 1.18 tries per game. The three NRL players have scored 19 tries from presumably 24 games so an average on 0.8 tries per game. So they aren't light years apart. The closest person to Charnley tries wise is Joel Monaghan has scored 23 tries from 27 games an average of 0.85 tries per game. So apart from Charnley, the top end NRL try scorers are pretty similar for tries to game ratio to those in SL, apart from Charnley of course.

 

More stats for you here if you like:

 

Average number of points in an NRL games - 40 points

Average number of points in an SL game - 49 points

 

So in reality there is 25% more points scored in an SL game compared to a NRL game based on figures. Why does Charnley have higher than 25% more tries than his Aussies counter parts. Maybe its the fact Charnley has been good not the other defences shocking. If you are going o the averages then the SL top try scorer should have a tries to game ratio of bang on 1 per game, but he doesn't he has 20% more than he should which indicates he is still doing exceptional rather than the competition being poor. That's obviously assuming the goal kicking accuracy in the NRL is similar to that of SL (please don't argue that the NRL is far more superior in that) So there's stats for you.

 

Now lets jump out of stats and talk about RL. Why in 2011 did Ryan Hall completely out class his opposition wingers in the games he played against Aus. He has consistently scored against opposition from the southern hemisphere since 2011 in WCC games and also internationals. The thing is as well though, Ryan Hall hasn't even been the best winger in SL these last couple of years. You're analysis that something which succeeds in SL means it still won't succeed in the NRL is just untrue. I agree the NRL is a better league and an all round much higher standard, but you need to pull your head out of the ground and see that the top end of SL can cut it in the NRL and international level and that some of them are a match for the Aussies, despite what league they play in.

 

 

After taking your leap from stats, you ask why it was that from 2011, Hall BEGAN to play well in internationals, something he had not acheived at all in his previous rep games and, no matter who the opposition was.

Well for one reason he had a different centre alongside, one derided by many on here; Jack Reed. He got a better service in those games than he had ever received previously, that could be one part of the explanation maybe and, Hall himself played with far more conviction and belief than he had displayed in any of his previous rep games. Until that series, you may disagree? He had nowhere near displayed anything like the form he does for Leeds. 

 

On Charnley, I like the lad and he can play some I do agree, but the point I stress and which your stats overlook, concern the matches he has been involved in like the CC game V Widnes and quite a few more over this past season.

I turned off that game when after 18 minutes, or so, Charnley went in for 'if I recall it correctly' his third try, all of which constituted receiving the ball with no one to beat and strolling over almost nonchalantly.

That may occur I agree a good few times within a SEASON in the NRL but then again not that often, If ever. This also within twenty or so minutes of the kick off, so omitting to put this into a statistics mode, for a moment, how many games has Charnley had such an easy three or more tries added to his tally this season?

Stats do not always (sometimes Rarely) define precisely what is achieved during games either, would'nt you agree? 

 

Referring to your opening comment I agree entirely.

I also concur over the Melbourne triumvirate and their uncanny understanding of each other play.

Yet I watch the NRL and doing so have arrived at the conclusion that Cherry Evans is presently the best equipped individual playing scrum-half in the NRL.

Should Cronk and Evans be up for grabs as individuals, ie, not in a package with their playing partners now, I would be hunting to add the latter to my side before Cronk.

 

Ttwelve months ago it would have been exactly opposite but the improvement in Evans game is quite outstanding and he is in my opinion, along with Thurston the hottest half-back on show. 

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Personally I think the biggest hurdle the England team has to overcome is endurance.  We wilt at 60 minutes.  We can all speculate why that is but it is a known and consistent fact that we actually do.  If McNamara with all the (comparatively immense) resources at his disposal can turn that around even if we don't have the talent of our Australian/Kiwi counterparts to hand - and who knows who is going to play up on the international stage - increasing our endurance levels to the full 80 minutes would stand us in a whole greater stead to actually win the game than has been the case for years.  Throw in tweaking tactics and players between games one and two and we could be on to a winning formula. 

 

Incidentally, I have watched almost every game from the NRL this year so I do know how they play, and I don't understand ( a ) why we drool over the NRL or ( b ) why we are so afraid of anything coming out of there.

 

Er Teamwork? simply put they do it better. Sharing the workload ie.

 

We now have the advantage of having battle-hardened players with experience of the standards required down under in order to survive, that is why I believe that all who are playing at that standard ought to be involved in Englands side to take the field.

 

That is not meant to imply that S/L players are inferior, on the contrary, it has been shown that our best can quite easily compete there, but it does imply that as S/L is so inferior in its set up, with far to few testing matches, that the endurance factor you refer to is a problem for those esconced in the S/L when pitted up against the players from the S/Hemi , especially in the last twenty minutes of fiercely contested games. 

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Not sure that SBW has made himself available, while matai has opted for Samoa and hurrell for tonga. Either way it's still a formidable looking kiwi side.

 

Really? Thanks for that It is news to me, on both counts. 

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