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Roughyhead true

playoff crowds

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One of my favourite films too.

See, we do have something in common.  ;)

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If I posted unreferenced material to back up my point I'd expect to be pulled up about it.

 

But you never post any research material Pom my good man which Padge did pull you up about.....

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A note on the Hull attendances: I am.not surprised in the dip in numbers. In 2002 our stadium was new and jobs were fairly easy to come by in Hull. Now, there are more than 100 fighting for every available job in the city. Simply, we're skint. It has affected season pass sales dramatically for both Hull clubs, so there is no wonder that play off attendance's are also down.

No, it doesn't explain everything, but it does explain a great deal in Hull's case, where the fan base continues to be comprised of the traditional working class which has been hardest hit by the economic catastrophe that has seen tens of thousands made redundant over the last few years.

Are Hull City's numbers down as well? 

 

Here in St Helens, our drop has consistently seen around 3000 missing from last season but that's easy to explain as last season was a serious blip upwards due to the new stadium factor.  Our crowds hadn't been that high for decades.  I think our average this season will be similar to our final year at Knowsley Road.  Perhaps a little lower given that we haven't sold out the Wigan and Warrington matches this season, largely due to them not turning up in the same numbers as previously.

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But you never post any research material Pom my good man which Padge did pull you up about.....

Totally irrelevant Parky. If I did I would. ;)

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2013 SL attendances during the regular season are 10.4% down on last year.

 

SL Play-off attendances have been in decline for a while, and particularly so since the introduction of the Top 8 play-off format.

 

SL Play-Off Attendances (not including Grand Finals)

Top 8 Format (2009 to 2013) - Total attendance 363,479 from 38 play-off fixtures - Average: 9,565

Top 6 Format (2002 to 2008) - Total attendance 468,499 from 35 play-off fixtures - Average: 13,386

Top 5 Format (1998 to 2001) - Total attendance 248,342 from 20 play-off fixtures - Average: 12,417

 

SL Play-Off Attendances - comparison between same play-off fixtures under different formats.
Leeds V Wigan
2010: 13,693 (Top 8 format)
2008: 13,112 (Top 6 format)
2007: 16,112 (Top 6 format)
2004: 20,119 (Top 6 format)
2003: 17,264 (Top 6 format)
 
Wigan V Leeds
2012: 8,235 (Top 8 format)
2010: 9,987 (Top 8 format)
2002: 13,157 (Top 6 format)
1998: 12,941 (Top 5 format)
 
Leeds V Hull
2012: 9,075 (Top 8 format)
2002: 12,123 (Top 6 format)
 
Wigan V Castleford
2009: 8,689 (Top 8 format)
1999: 13,374 (Top 5 format)
 
Wigan V St Helens
2011: 12,893 (Top 8 format)
2004: 20,052 (Top 6 format)
2003: 21,790 (Top 6 format)
2001: 19,260 (Top 5 format)
 
St Helens V Wigan
2011: 9,421 (Top 8 format)
2009: 13,087 (Top 8 format)
2002: 15,100 (Top 6 format)
 
Warrington V Hull
2012: 7,323 (Top 8 format)
2005: 12,243 (Top 6 format)
 
Hull V Huddersfield
2012: 8,662 (Top 8 format)
2007: 12,140 (Top 6 format)
 
Leeds V St Helens
2013: 12,189 (Top 8 format)
1998: 13,233 (Top 5 format)

 

 

 Thank you for the figures, appreciated......

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Are Hull City's numbers down as well? 

 

Here in St Helens, our drop has consistently seen around 3000 missing from last season but that's easy to explain as last season was a serious blip upwards due to the new stadium factor.  Our crowds hadn't been that high for decades.  I think our average this season will be similar to our final year at Knowsley Road.  Perhaps a little lower given that we haven't sold out the Wigan and Warrington matches this season, largely due to them not turning up in the same numbers as previously.

 

So you don't fill your own new home and its the away clubs fault?

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So you don't fill your own new home and its the away clubs fault?

Er, exactly where did I say it was the away club's fault?  What a silly statement to make!  I said that was the difference between the numbers, which it was.

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Er, exactly where did I say it was the away club's fault?  What a silly statement to make!  I said that was the difference between the numbers, which it was.

So how many did Wigan and Warrington bring before and how many this season.

 

I presume you have the figures since you seem that confident.

 

P.S. All supporters don't buy tickets from their club directly.

 

P.P.S. Yes you did make a silly statement.

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A note on the Hull attendances: I am.not surprised in the dip in numbers. In 2002 our stadium was new and jobs were fairly easy to come by in Hull. Now, there are more than 100 fighting for every available job in the city. Simply, we're skint. It has affected season pass sales dramatically for both Hull clubs, so there is no wonder that play off attendance's are also down.

No, it doesn't explain everything, but it does explain a great deal in Hull's case, where the fan base continues to be comprised of the traditional working class which has been hardest hit by the economic catastrophe that has seen tens of thousands made redundant over the last few years.

Hull's regular season home attendances in 2013 were only 1.7% down on last year. Only Leeds and Widnes generated an increase.

 

Leeds 1.7% up

Widnes 0.6% up

Hull 1.7% down

Wakefield 2.5% down

Hull KR 3.7% down

Castleford 4,9% down

Warrington 7.2% down

Wigan 9.3% down

Catalan 10.9% down

Huddersfield 17.4% down

St Helens 19.5% down

London 21.2% down

Bradford 27.2% down

Salford 43.2% down

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Now, now let's not get personal just because I've seen a flaw in your "argument".

I have had many disagreements with Padge on this forum and will no doubt continue to do so BUT, when it comes to statistics on the game and knowledge of the various rules and regulations governing it, this seems to be a hobby of his and, whilst he may post lies and even DAMN lies, I personally do not doubt at all his statistics.

Unless you can categorically refute his statistics as being wrong, then I think you should withdraw from this argument, accept his graph and argue the pros and cons of the crowds argument accepting that his published date are accurate.

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There was also an "experiment"with 2 divisions first past the post championship for a couple of seasons from 1963

Yes and Swinton were champions twice and both Hunslet and Keighley won promotion and were allowed into the 1st division, oh happy days.

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I've no doubt that for any club shut out of SL it's been a disaster.

 

But would we be on the right track trying to keep 37 professional clubs going forward? Even if SKY money could be shared 37 ways (which it can't) it doesn't follow the game as a whole would progress.

 

Lyndsay knew full well trying to keep the old set up going wasn't possible on the low resources the game has. He created Superlegue to get the SKY money and arranged for elite clubs to provide a professional game for fans of lowly struggling clubs to go watch. It didn't happen by fans instantly transferring alliegances, but it remains the case that years on the games fans (who come and go) have migrated to Superleague, and the figures show that in 2012 every one of the M62 Superleague clubs (not six) had higher crowds than they had before Superleague began. Superleague provides more of it's fans with a higher standard of Rugby League to watch.

 

What is the problem?

You make it sound like St.Maurice of Wigan was on a mission from God and had a well planned divine blueprint for the salvation of RL. In fact, SL was cobbled together in indecent haste, when Rupert Murdoch came riding in on his charger from Australia and gave us a take it or leave it offer because of his media war with Kerry Packer.

Maurice was a bookie but he did a very poor job of gambling and risk assessment when presented with this offer and never tried hard enough to push Murdoch for a better deal beyond getting a little sop to placate the lower reaches.

Murdoch and Fox/Sky were never in a more pressurable situation than they were then. .Once the war was won Sky could dictate terms to us not the other way around. If St. Maurice had been a bookie worth his salt we would have had a bigger contract covering more clubs and the successes of SL would have been replicated in a much broader spectrum of the game than the ivory tower league we have now and the attendances today would have been much bigger because they would have spread the pool much wider than at present.

You know I agree with you that the Sky money saved the game but Maurice Lyndsay was not the saviour and he could have made a much better deal with the deus ex machina than he did to the benefit of all clubs.

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Talk about 20:20 hindsight .How on earth do any of us know if a better deal could have been made!?? The SL conncept in both Aus n here was all about creating a more sreamlined ,intense elite tier not spreading the cash evenly across the existing game.

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Maurice was a bookie but he did a very poor job of gambling and risk assessment when presented with this offer and never tried hard enough to push Murdoch for a better deal beyond getting a little sop to placate the lower reaches.

 

As per Koli how do you know this?

 

Did he even meet Murdoch??

 

How do you push a better deal when nobody else wants the product???

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I have had many disagreements with Padge on this forum and will no doubt continue to do so BUT, when it comes to statistics on the game and knowledge of the various rules and regulations governing it, this seems to be a hobby of his and, whilst he may post lies and even DAMN lies, I personally do not doubt at all his statistics.

Unless you can categorically refute his statistics as being wrong, then I think you should withdraw from this argument, accept his graph and argue the pros and cons of the crowds argument accepting that his published date are accurate.

I never doubted Padge's stats, all I asked for was a reference other than they had been posted on here lots of times before. As for an apology, been there done that. Please keep up. ;)

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What is interesting is the buzz that seems to be created about the 2 play-off games this week (Wire v Hudds and Wigan v Leeds). This gives a sense that the play-offs themselves have appeal but it really needs to have that edge of importance. I predict 16-18k at Wigan and 12k at Wire which will be good going.

i hope you're right Scubby, but I'm not sure why that Wigan v Leeds crowd would grow by 100% in a year.

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Hull's regular season home attendances do in 2013 were only 1.7% down on last year. Only Leeds and Widnes generated an increase.

Interesting, but this thread is about playoff crowds! Finding the extra cash for games at a time when season pass renewal is imminent (see Hull thread for a thorough explanation of why this is a problem) has been a problem for many.

Season pass sales were down by about 20% to just under 8000, so gates being only 1.7% down on last season is good in that context.

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Interesting, but this thread is about playoff crowds!

Correct, the thread is about playoff crowds! However, you specifically responded to my quote about the overall 10.4% reduction in regular season SL attendances with reasons why you thought Hull's had suffered such a significant dip - hence why I responded with the fact they were only 1.4% down.

 

Finding the extra cash for games at a time when season pass renewal is imminent (see Hull thread for a thorough explanation of why this is a problem) has been a problem for many. 
Indeed, the financial desperation of SL clubs to cash in on next years season ticket sales as early as possible - to the detriment of play-off attendances this season - is an issue which needs to be looked at. It's not a good image for the game when the more important business-end-of-the-season fixtures are defined by half-empty and quarter-empty stadia. What kind of image does that portray about the sport? 
 
Season pass sales were down by about 20% to just under 8000, so gates being only 1.7% down on last season is good in that context.
Perhaps the financial gains of a higher percentage of spectators paying at the turnstiles was cancelled out by the sundry cheap ticket deals that Hull (and other SL clubs) had on sale?  

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Those figures are shocking, taking to 2009 to get cumulative attendances back to pre Sky numbers despite the hype and cash to the elite. It shows how SL's gain has been at the expense of the rest.

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The impact of the World Cup on play-off crowds can't be underestimated. There will be 100s of fans who are planning to spend £100-£200 on additional tickets over the next two months. For many, there has to be  a compromise somewhere and fans are picking games for sure.

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The whole league and playoff formatt I believe is a main reason why crowds are down hopefully with the change happening hopefully we'll see a rise again because its vital we improve, also I see Wigan haven't done there usual big one game this year any reasons?, I'd love to see everyteam do this and show some ambition even the possibility of taking games on the road double headers thoughts?

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I haven't read the whole thread, but I don't see why clubs don't give you the option when you buy your season tickets to buy play off tickets as part of the deal, with the money only be paid if your team has a game and you don't subsequently opt it? I subscribe to Wigan TV and the quarterly payments work on a renew unless you say no approach. Be a combination of cheese and peas to do that.

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The games I saw or watched on sky it was mainly home fans who failed to turn out in normal numbers, both leeds and Giants had good numbers and an increase on league games. The pattern seamed to be happening at other games (not Dragons of course)

It was not just prices because all juniors were only  £5. wires failure to promote games this year has contributed to the decrease in league games when economic factors are hitting home so results alone will not drag fans in.

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