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Bostik Bailey

An example of a fair and open market

101 posts in this topic

Actually I do know a lot about the gas supply industry, I work for a large gas consumer and the gas price is linked heavily to our production costs. the commodity price has not increased considerably over the last year certainly nowhere near 9%. (Now you can believe that I'm taking Internet ###### if you want but don't even think I'm going to give out our gas prices on this forum)

Of course we will use the 'increase in gas prices to justify out lack of profits etc'.

There is another player in this game that is stealing money and that is the compleat private monopoly of National Grid, creaming a cut off every MJ i of gas whilst not maintaining an ageing supply network.

 

 

I wasn't clear enough. I ,eamst what do BG (or anyone else) pay for their gas?  Anyway, most of it was answered in the doc that CKN linked to in the earlier post. The price of gas seems to have gone up 20% in the last 12 months. 

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Forever, as they did not offer such a service.

 

But no one did back then. Like Johnoco points out, it's a nice little earner (in fact probably a nice big earner). You pay £15 - £20 pm and, like what has just happened to me, they come out and tell you your're not covered for the fault you have anyway.

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i've had British Gas cover for the last 8 years. They service it ( i.e check it, clean it, test it etc) once a year, and fix faults on the motorised valves, pump etc. Had 5 new motorised valves in 8 years no questions asked.  Well organised,  keep to their appointed time, call us when they are on their way etc.  Boiler 10 years ol dan no question of refusing to look after it.

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You mean you pay £15 a month or whatever and they come out and fix it? What is unusual about them keeping their part of the deal?

Those deals are mainly a con because when it comes to fixing it they can come up with excuses like 'ah well we can't actually fix that unless you upgrade to our super duper package'

Tell you what I have done. Rather than put money into an endless pot, I have put some money to one side for such an emergency. Yes there may be trouble getting a plumber at busy times but when I did have cover and the heat exchanger went on my boiler, I had to wait for a week as they were prioritising the calls. Fair enough but it didn't help me out.

Nothing unusual at all, I was just surprised they had someone answering calls on a Sunday night and were then able to get someone to me the next morning.

 

I must have the only BG engineers who don't try to get me to upgrade to the "super duper package" as they've always fixed the problem quickly with no fuss.

 

I too, put money aside each month for such an emergency, hence my boiler being fixed in less than 24hrs. Now, if my boiler never breaks down it's been wasted money, but it has, 3 times.

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I wasn't clear enough. I ,eamst what do BG (or anyone else) pay for their gas? Anyway, most of it was answered in the doc that CKN linked to in the earlier post. The price of gas seems to have gone up 20% in the last 12 months.

On my phone all day today so can't really look at the doc but there's a graph in there showing historical prices of gas. Look again at it and you'll see we're at the same wholesale price now as last year.

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Nothing unusual at all, I was just surprised they had someone answering calls on a Sunday night and were then able to get someone to me the next morning.

 

I must have the only BG engineers who don't try to get me to upgrade to the "super duper package" as they've always fixed the problem quickly with no fuss.

 

I too, put money aside each month for such an emergency, hence my boiler being fixed in less than 24hrs. Now, if my boiler never breaks down it's been wasted money, but it has, 3 times.

Isn't the deal a 24/7 one, so why would it be surprising that someone was working Sunday? You must be lucky because it's usually a case of 'sorry that isn't covered' or 'you will have to pay £X excess'. And if your boiler breaks down that much maybe they could tell you where you are going wrong?

 

As for putting money aside, once you have a reasonable amount you can stop and not endlessly pay out.

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On my phone all day today so can't really look at the doc but there's a graph in there showing historical prices of gas. Look again at it and you'll see we're at the same wholesale price now as last year.

 

Understood. When you zoom in though, that is not how it seems , hence wondering if there was a table somewhere.

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Understood. When you zoom in though, that is not how it seems , hence wondering if there was a table somewhere.

I'll have a dig around and see if I can find one.  It would be interesting...

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Found one.  Looking at Excel spreadsheets on an iPhone is a challenge to say the least...

 

Link to Excel file of the data that went into comprising the government's Quarterly Energy Prices document

 

Prices of gas paid by UK power distributers and producers

2012 average price per KWh: 2.135p

Q2 2013 average price per KWh: 2.161p

A rise of 1.2% since 2012.

 

It does show real and justifiable links to why prices have gone up over the last decade or so but this year's 9% ish rises seem to be more than disproportionate.  Made especially disproportionate by Centrica making almost the same profit % rise as the % rise of their consumer gas bills.

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Here is a chart I 've been looking for (in the public domain so i can put it on here). For the last 5 years the price has been down to 40p/therm and over the last few year it has stabilised to ~60p/therm. That was what I was insinuating in my previous posts.

 

The was a big hike in 2008 then a equal drop, but look what happen to the domestic price, no drop and big hikes for no equilvalent hike in wholesale prices.

 

http://www.consumerfocus.org.uk/policy-research/energy/paying-for-energy/wholesale-retail-prices

 

Wholesale-v-retail-gas4-1024x724.jpg

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Anyone switched yet?

Example ones I get on searching:

Not taking into account the latest rises if I switch gas/electric now I can save £177 a year on a fixed rate deal fixed till 30 Nov next year (no exit fees)

Or pay £51 a year more than I am current and get a fixed rate deal until 31 March 2017! Again no early exit fees.

Will end up switching its just weighing up the pros and cons.

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Just switched to Scottish Power. Although CKN adheres to some strange political views, I do respect his views!  :biggrin:

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Given we've had government owned banks (and continue to do so) is there anything stopping them buying into the energy markets?

 

Not talking nationalisation, but I can't see a cap working, however, all it takes is one company of a reasonable size/profile to keep price rises down to make all the others fall into line, or so I'd imagine.

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Given we've had government owned banks (and continue to do so) is there anything stopping them buying into the energy markets?

Not talking nationalisation, but I can't see a cap working, however, all it takes is one company of a reasonable size/profile to keep price rises down to make all the others fall into line, or so I'd imagine.

That's a good point, but unless you buy a big primary producer of gas you will not have the cspacity to make a differance, before you are squeezed out.

This was tried by community groups buying large amounts of gas on the wholesale market, with the idea to sell it on to the domestic market at a lower price than the norm. Of course the gas producers realised what was going on and none of them offered gas at a price close enough to the wholesale price for it to make any difference to the big six.

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Found one.  Looking at Excel spreadsheets on an iPhone is a challenge to say the least...

 

Link to Excel file of the data that went into comprising the government's Quarterly Energy Prices document

 

Prices of gas paid by UK power distributers and producers

2012 average price per KWh: 2.135p

Q2 2013 average price per KWh: 2.161p

A rise of 1.2% since 2012.

 

It does show real and justifiable links to why prices have gone up over the last decade or so but this year's 9% ish rises seem to be more than disproportionate.  Made especially disproportionate by Centrica making almost the same profit % rise as the % rise of their consumer gas bills.

 

Thanks  for that. I promise I won't tax your Iphone eyesight again today.

 

However, if  Q2 2013 average price per KWh: 2.161p

then hasn't the comparison to be Q2 2012 average price per KWh: 2.067p  in which case its 4.5 % ...still less than 9%, though, agreed...or wait for the full years figures for 2013

 

still less than 9 % though as you said, so I was wrong.

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But the government is telling up to wear a jumper

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/10/18/downing-street-jumpers-energy-bills_n_4121009.html?1382095223&utm_hp_ref=uk

*note that inspite of the headline thats NOT what the government said.

although the multimillionaire owner of Centrica did give us this gem of advise in the face of souring gas bills

wear two jumpers!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2435874/Centrica-boss-tells-customers-wear-two-jumpers-this-winter.html

*sadly this actually IS true

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Fleet Street Fox weighs into the debate

 

Anyone who suggests renationalising our utilities is accused of Stalinism, as though expecting to keep people warm was the same as killing 20million with gulags and a planned famine.
 
Yet these prices only ever rise; the executives are only ever paid more; and we turn the thermostat down by increments until we arrive at the point we're effectively doing without fuel altogether.
 
That's Stalinism, right there - the promotion of an elite at the expense of the many while saying it's for your own good.

 

 

 

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Thanks  for that. I promise I won't tax your Iphone eyesight again today.

 

However, if  Q2 2013 average price per KWh: 2.161p

then hasn't the comparison to be Q2 2012 average price per KWh: 2.067p  in which case its 4.5 % ...still less than 9%, though, agreed...or wait for the full years figures for 2013

 

still less than 9 % though as you said, so I was wrong.

Or in absolute terms 0.1p/KWh. When you consider the domestic price is in to order of 8-9p/ KWh percentage increases give a very distorted picture. The power companies try to justify the increases in percentage terms when in reality their profitability etc would be the same if they just passed on the absolute price increase

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but...but...prices WILL continue to rise under any regime. If we are to secure our energy supplies, invest in low pollution alternatives,  and if we are to  cut energy usage to combat global climate change warming  etc, the only was is up, no matter what King Cnut Ed promises.

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Or in absolute terms 0.1p/KWh. When you consider the domestic price is in to order of 8-9p/ KWh percentage increases give a very distorted picture. The power companies try to justify the increases in percentage terms when in reality their profitability etc would be the same if they just passed on the absolute price increase

 

OK, but what I don't get is why no one in any country anywhere on earth is willing or able to do anything about it. Indeed, as posed earlier in post #19

 

In the first half of 2013 domestic prices for gas were lower in the UK than in the majority of other EU member states. The UK has long had among the cheapest domestic gas in the EU.

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Of course prices will increase, but look at the graph that was posted the wholesale price in 2008 was about 40p/therm similar to 2007 but the domestic price for those two time was much more in 2008.

It's not the fact that prices will rise, of course they will, it's the way the market behaves that is the problem.

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Thanks  for that. I promise I won't tax your Iphone eyesight again today.

 

However, if  Q2 2013 average price per KWh: 2.161p

then hasn't the comparison to be Q2 2012 average price per KWh: 2.067p  in which case its 4.5 % ...still less than 9%, though, agreed...or wait for the full years figures for 2013

 

still less than 9 % though as you said, so I was wrong.

Looking at it on a desktop, you're right about where I should have done the comparison.  The thing is that there was an unexpected and quickly corrected spike in the market in June caused by market speculation over a cold winter that may have put the prices out for Q2 this year.  We'll have to wait for the full 2013 figures to get the overall year average price.

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 The whole thing is a mess. These are big enterprises that need big systems, lots of people, lots of stuff etc ands I don't see how having new entrants, or bringing back some of those that left) is going to change things unless they have access to sources other than those the big six use. 

 

As the price increases than I try to cut energy use ( a good thing surely?) to keep the bill the same. There will of course be a limit and domestic wind power and PV panels don't make economic sense even here in windy and sunny Lincs. So what will our bills be like in ten years or 20 years time?

 

Time for one of these? article-0-0E6FDDCD00000578-201_634x403.j

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But the government is telling up to wear a jumper

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/10/18/downing-street-jumpers-energy-bills_n_4121009.html?1382095223&utm_hp_ref=uk

*note that inspite of the headline thats NOT what the government said.

although the multimillionaire owner of Centrica did give us this gem of advise in the face of souring gas bills

wear two jumpers!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2435874/Centrica-boss-tells-customers-wear-two-jumpers-this-winter.html

*sadly this actually IS true

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24586951

 

Enter, stage left, the humble jumper. And welcome to a brief snapshot of how headlines sometimes appear despite what might have emerged out of the lips of politicians and their advisers.

 

 

A story about a story that never was. 

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