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Bostik Bailey

An example of a fair and open market

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The whole thing is a mess. These are big enterprises that need big systems, lots of people, lots of stuff etc ands I don't see how having new entrants, or bringing back some of those that left) is going to change things unless they have access to sources other than those the big six use.

As the price increases than I try to cut energy use ( a good thing surely?) to keep the bill the same. There will of course be a limit and domestic wind power and PV panels don't make economic sense even here in windy and sunny Lincs. So what will our bills be like in ten years or 20 years time?

Time for one of these? article-0-0E6FDDCD00000578-201_634x403.j

You know what mate dispute allot pontificating that we are pay too much for energy, I think that carbon based energy is too cheap, and agree with you. However I object to market rigging for private gains any excessive income from carbon energy needs to be used to subsidise a holistic approach to a lower carbon ( eventually leading to a carbon free) energy system. This is the big picture that will give profitable returns in 5 to 10 years time. Unfortunately this is far too long for every government (regardless of colour).

The energy supply system is not broke if we Allow a fair market and remove the power of the big six.

Take a look at tha graph of the wholesale price of gas and the domestic price. Ask yourself why doesn't one of the big six drop their prices to 2011 levels ( where the wholesale price is similar to now but the domestic price is ~20%. Lower). If they did that they'd probably get the major share of the Uk energy market. Why is that not good business ..............unless you are part of a cartel.

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Take a look at tha graph of the wholesale price of gas and the domestic price. Ask yourself why doesn't one of the big six drop their prices to 2011 levels ( where the wholesale price is similar to now but the domestic price is ~20%. Lower). If they did that they'd probably get the major share of the Uk energy market. Why is that not good business ..............unless you are part of a cartel.

I work in a sector that has 3 "big" players in the UK, and it is our aim to take as much business as possible from each other, unfortunately, we all share the same main customer who doesn't want their number of potential suppliers reduced so will never say "here, you have the lot".

 

If the aim of these energy companies is to simply generate cash for their shareholders, then ultimately the only way is to destroy the competition. BG doesn't want E-ON and SSE to have any success, it wants them to disappear forever so it can hoover up their customers.

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I work in a sector that has 3 "big" players in the UK, and it is our aim to take as much business as possible from each other, unfortunately, we all share the same main customer who doesn't want their number of potential suppliers reduced so will never say "here, you have the lot".

If the aim of these energy companies is to simply generate cash for their shareholders, then ultimately the only way is to destroy the competition. BG doesn't want E-ON and SSE to have any success, it wants them to disappear forever so it can hoover up their customers.

If that was the case then BG ( or any of the others) could as I said drop their price to the 2011 level and still make a healthy profit and gain the major share of the market. Look at the graph. Why don't they do it?

The only answer why they don't is they are in a cartel and if they broke ranks the whole cabal would fall down with every gas company operating in a truley competitive market and profits would be minimal.

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If that was the case then BG ( or any of the others) could as I said drop their price to the 2011 level and still make a healthy profit and gain the major share of the market. Look at the graph. Why don't they do it?

The only answer why they don't is they are in a cartel and if they broke ranks the whole cabal would fall down with every gas company operating in a truley competitive market and profits would be minimal.

They don't do it, because every ###### else would follow suit. So they'd gain nothing.

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If that was the case then BG ( or any of the others) could as I said drop their price to the 2011 level and still make a healthy profit and gain the major share of the market. Look at the graph. Why don't they do it?

The only answer why they don't is they are in a cartel and if they broke ranks the whole cabal would fall down with every gas company operating in a truley competitive market and profits would be minimal.

 

See post #20.  It's not like they're not making vast profits now is it?

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They don't do it, because every ###### else would follow suit. So they'd gain nothing.

Which is what I said so at least we agree they are operating a cartel.

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Which is what I said so at least we agree they are operating a cartel.

 

Which is why I don't see the need for the extended debate.  If they were putting up prices and their profits were remaining broadly static, then in all honesty there'd be little complaint. 

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Which is why I don't see the need for the extended debate. If they were putting up prices and their profits were remaining broadly static, then in all honesty there'd be little complaint.

Agreed but it is obvious to me ( who understands the gas supply network ) that they are profiteering at the expense of the British public with the complicity of countless governments, unfortunately it's the poorer ones of society that bear the brunt if this uncontrolled market rigging.

This is not capitalism it is exploiting the capitalist system ( uncontrolled capitalism if you want)

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Which is what I said so at least we agree they are operating a cartel.

If one company lowers it's prices then the rest follow, that's not a cartel, that's trying to maintain market share. Look at the supermarkets when one drops it's petrol prices.

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If one company lowers it's prices then the rest follow, that's not a cartel, that's trying to maintain market share. Look at the supermarkets when one drops it's petrol prices.

Exactly, so please explain why BG didn't announce a price cut to 2011 levels to get custom of SSE.

Yes price cuts show that a cartel is not operating but we are talking about concurrent price rises

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Exactly, so please explain why BG didn't announce a price cut to 2011 levels to get custom of SSE.

Yes price cuts show that a cartel is not operating but we are talking about concurrent price rises

Because if they're all making all this cash, the SSE would simply drop it's prices, so why switch.

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Because if they're all making all this cash, the SSE would simply drop it's prices, so why switch.

Look at the comment YOU made two posts previously to answer that question

It is not a competitive market, it is market where all the major player keep the price artificially high.

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If that was the case then BG ( or any of the others) could as I said drop their price to the 2011 level and still make a healthy profit and gain the major share of the market. Look at the graph. Why don't they do it?

.

So you'd prefer a monopoly to a cartel then ? Interesting.

As for reducing prices to 2011 levels, sounds great in principle. How have their operating costs changed in that period - have their employees had pay rises ? How much has their business rates and insurance gone up by ? What about fuel for their vehicle fleet, has it changed ? Maintenance costs ? Increases in employers NI contribution rate ? Cost of bought in services provided by contractors etc ?

If those have stayed the same then you may have a point, if not then you're talking idealistic nonsense I'm afraid.

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It must be great working for these power companies then you get 8-9% pay rises year on year.

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Look at the comment YOU made two posts previously to answer that question

It is not a competitive market, it is market where all the major player keep the price artificially high.

What????

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Did Stalin give people the chance to vote him out of office or did he slaughter any perceived opponents?

 

Exactly; that's what she was pointing out. The absurdity of whenever anything slightly socialist is proposed such as re-nationalisation opponents from the right immediately chorus that we are heading towards a Stalinist state. Ridiculous. 

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It must be great working for these power companies then you get 8-9% pay rises year on year.

That's a straw man argument and you know it.

It's a very simple question - leaving aside the cost of the actual energy, do you think their other costs are the same as in 2011 ? If not then why would they go back to charging 2011 prices ? It's a very simplistic notion that assumes the price of the energy is their only cost and it's nonsense. Even if energy wholesale prices had remained completely static then you would still see a rise in prices as a consumer to accommodate inflation on other costs.

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nPower have taken the 8.2% price rise of SSE and 9.2% price rise of British Gas and trumped it with their own 10.4% price rise.  I wonder where the rest will finish up at the bidding block race for silliest price rise?

 

There's a very useful diagram at the bottom of this page that shows how much each of the major suppliers have increased their prices by over the last few years.  Again, going back to that wholesale price of gas thing in the government's paper I linked a few pages ago, these price rises seem to be a wee bit disproportionate...

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Basically all these companies buy the same gas and electricity from the same source and at the same quality.

 

On that basis I can't understand why we need 6 suppliers. If anything the varying prices are an attempt to make it look different when it is apparently not.

 

The only option to create competition is to have local supply and demand and come off the grid altogether.

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Thanks  for that. I promise I won't tax your Iphone eyesight again today.

 

However, if  Q2 2013 average price per KWh: 2.161p

then hasn't the comparison to be Q2 2012 average price per KWh: 2.067p  in which case its 4.5 % ...still less than 9%, though, agreed...or wait for the full years figures for 2013

 

still less than 9 % though as you said, so I was wrong.

I seem to remember a spokesman for SSE saying that only about half the rise was down to wholesale price rises. The rest was to do with green levies and other regulatory issues.

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The thing, it actually quite hard to discern the truth from the special pleading from all sides..(apart from the poor bluddy consumer). I certainly don't want to pay any more than I do at present, and life would be so much better if energy were half the price, then I could afford to make the 320 mile round trip to Wigan for every home game.  Hardly helpful on the emission front, the depletion of fossil fuels and the contribution to global warming through the release of trapped energy.

 

My long view is still that energy prices will continue to increase  and even if shale gas were to contribute significantly to our energy supplies and even if we were to build  a decent number of nuclear power stations, the true cost of construction, operation, environmental safeguards and decommissioning need to be added in. 

 

Of course there are solutions such as PV panels, domestic wind turbines, solar hot water systems, ground heat pumps,  circulating air heat recovery systems etc that can more or less eliminate domestic energy charges but they are expensive, and not generally suitable for  retrofitting.  A mate  has had his own house built using this technology and has virtually zero energy bills....but at a huge capital cost!  He is now building 3 more similarly equipped, so if you are well-heeled you can afford low energy bills.

 

So how about the utilities adopting a banded charge system whereby the the more you use, the higher the unit charge to discourage profligate useage? 

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The thing, it actually quite hard to discern the truth from the special pleading from all sides..(apart from the poor bluddy consumer). I certainly don't want to pay any more than I do at present, and life would be so much better if energy were half the price, then I could afford to make the 320 mile round trip to Wigan for every home game.  Hardly helpful on the emission front, the depletion of fossil fuels and the contribution to global warming through the release of trapped energy.

 

My long view is still that energy prices will continue to increase  and even if shale gas were to contribute significantly to our energy supplies and even if we were to build  a decent number of nuclear power stations, the true cost of construction, operation, environmental safeguards and decommissioning need to be added in. 

 

Of course there are solutions such as PV panels, domestic wind turbines, solar hot water systems, ground heat pumps,  circulating air heat recovery systems etc that can more or less eliminate domestic energy charges but they are expensive, and not generally suitable for  retrofitting.  A mate  has had his own house built using this technology and has virtually zero energy bills....but at a huge capital cost!  He is now building 3 more similarly equipped, so if you are well-heeled you can afford low energy bills.

 

So how about the utilities adopting a banded charge system whereby the the more you use, the higher the unit charge to discourage profligate useage? 

 

Good idea. What's in it for them? Do they really want to reduce consumption, it a bit counter intuitive for any commercial business to try and discourage spending on it's goods. It may also go against the new OFGEN regulations on simplifying tariffs.

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