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JohnM

"Scotland has the lowest average household water bills in these Islands."

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Scotland has the lowest average household water bills in these Islands.

 

Really? Are you sure?

 

Read the speech in full here: http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/viewpoint/in-full-alex-salmonds-conference-speech-october-19-2013-perth.1382195983

 

One thing puzzles me, though I'm sure there is a simple explanation.  Will those who represent Scotland in the Glasgow Commonwealth games be allowed to vote in the upcoming referendum? After all, if you are good enough to compete under the flag, surely you are entitled to a say.

 

Disclaimer: I fully endorse Scottish independence.

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No, there should be strict and fair rules about who can and cannot vote. You should be registered to vote in a Scottish constituency. The alternative is that everybody with a Scottish granny will want an opinion.

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Looking ahead a little, does the team think that Salmond will cite the Scotland team at the games in support of his cause?

 

and the water bills?

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Perhaps it's because they don't get washed too often

I'd love to see Scotland independent

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but they still wont have the lowest water charges, despite what Salmond says.

 

And yes, too, I'd like to see them independent, even if just progressively via  more devolution.

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On his speech, he's right about a lot of things but the one that really makes me agree is:

In the face of massive public opposition and ignoring the wishes of almost all Scottish MPs our postal service was privatised by a government we didn't elect.

 

They hailed the sale of a profitable business at a knock-down price as a good thing. It is the equivalent of selling off £10 notes for a fiver and calling it a success!

 

I fully support Scottish independence.  One thing that worries me is that UK-lite would be essentially a Tory playground for a good number of years with the loss of all those non-Tory MPs.  Devolution has worked spectacularly well in Scotland, in my opinion, and I'm sad that we'll never see the same thing in the north of England:  When the Tories are in power the north of England gets ignored, when Labour are in power they start out with good intentions then become Westminster-ised and not able to see things outside the M25.

 

On who can vote, if you live in Scotland as a registered voter then you get to vote, if you don't live there then you don't get to vote.

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Mr Salmond, tell us again about the water bills?

 

 

IN addition, it seems you can compete for your country at the highest level, but not vote?

 

The coalition government came to power in 2010 with the Conservatives having promised a sale in its manifesto and the Liberal Democrats having committed to a partial privatisation. Lib Dem manifesto "Give both Royal Mail and post offices a long-term future, by separating Post Office Ltd from the Royal Mail and retaining Post Office Ltd in full public ownership. 49 per cent of Royal Mail will be sold to create funds for investment. The ownership of the other 51 per cent will be divided between an employee trust and the government".

 

I'd say the nation voted.

 

The Labour view

 

My issue really is that Salmond ios selling an unsustainable dream. By promising to do the impossible he may find he loses support, not gains it , which would be a shame,  as it seems clear that as a whole Scotland does not want a Conservative govt so why should it have one?

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Mr Salmond, tell us again about the water bills?

 

 

IN addition, it seems you can compete for your country at the highest level, but not vote?

 

The coalition government came to power in 2010 with the Conservatives having promised a sale in its manifesto and the Liberal Democrats having committed to a partial privatisation. Lib Dem manifesto "Give both Royal Mail and post offices a long-term future, by separating Post Office Ltd from the Royal Mail and retaining Post Office Ltd in full public ownership. 49 per cent of Royal Mail will be sold to create funds for investment. The ownership of the other 51 per cent will be divided between an employee trust and the government".

 

I'd say the nation voted.

 

The Labour view

 

My issue really is that Salmond ios selling an unsustainable dream. By promising to do the impossible he may find he loses support, not gains it , which would be a shame,  as it seems clear that as a whole Scotland does not want a Conservative govt so why should it have one?

What's he proposed that's impossible?

 

Also, you can live anywhere in the world and represent your country, that doesn't mean you get to vote for it unless you choose to live there.

 

Finally, you could say that no-one won the last election, essentially the public rejected the manifestos of all parties by refusing to elect a majority government.  That's where the Coalition Agreement comes into force.  On the Royal Mail, the Agreement does say they'll look to inject private capital into Royal Mail, including employee ownership.  I still say that it's an idiot move selling a profitable organisation for a price that's so low that it instantly gains a 60% share price rise when it starts trading even with a strike pending.  I've yet to hear a single credible reason for why it had to be privatised and what benefits that privatisation will have for the UK taxpayer who have seen a loss of control of a profitable and essential national asset.

 

Edit: And that failure to elect a majority government was on the back of Labour having been in power for 13 years and having a seriously disliked Gordon Brown in charge of a disintegrating Labour Cabinet.  The Coalition have probably the weakest electoral mandate for many, many years.

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Having the cheapest water in these islands for a start. 

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Having the cheapest water in these islands for a start. 

Northern Ireland pay through rates so have the cheapest? 

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Why?

Curiosity: I'd just like to see how it pans out

Schadenfreude: I've met quite a few scots nats and every one of them was an obnoxious bore who thinks that brave heart was a documentary and who ranted on about 'you English' and/or 'the English and how I personally or England in general was to blame for everything bad about Scotland and how 'the English' appropriated the wealth and bounty if Scotland leaving the Scots impoverished etc etc . The last time I endured this was at a wedding reception in a mansion originally owned by a Scots mine owner . I agreed with him saying that my father was ###### off driving to the pit in the same rolls Royce two years running abd having larks' tongue sandwiches for his snap.

I love Scotland and I've lived there and made some great friends but the snp get on my #### especially the smug self satisfied salmond

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On his speech, he's right about a lot of things but the one that really makes me agree is:

 

I fully support Scottish independence.  One thing that worries me is that UK-lite would be essentially a Tory playground for a good number of years with the loss of all those non-Tory MPs.  Devolution has worked spectacularly well in Scotland, in my opinion, and I'm sad that we'll never see the same thing in the north of England:  When the Tories are in power the north of England gets ignored, when Labour are in power they start out with good intentions then become Westminster-ised and not able to see things outside the M25.

 

On who can vote, if you live in Scotland as a registered voter then you get to vote, if you don't live there then you don't get to vote.

My favourite bit was the following:-

 

Those running the official campaign against that proposition call themselves “Project Fear”. For the term “Project Fear” is not some insult dreamed up by the Yes campaign.

It is a self-description.

That’s right - the No Campaign actually described themselves as Project Fear.

Labour’s UK Health spokesman, Andy Burnham, captured the mood of that project.

Last month he actually said he is opposed to independence because he doesn’t want to drive up the M6, get out his passport and start driving on the right when he comes to Scotland.

Mind you, I thought Labour has been driving on the right for some time.

Mr Burnham’s suggestion is a worthy addition to all the rest – the mobile phone charges, the annexation of Faslane, embassies refusing to hold whisky receptions!

Project Fear? More like Project Farce.

As for your fears of a Tory playground, England on its own is more than capable of electin non-Tory governments, so don't worry. It'll just mean that progressive forces in the rest of Britain will have to get its act together... Oh, I see your point.

Seriously, give the Tories enough rope and they will eventually hang themselves electorally. Then, when they are rejected you hit 'em with a system of proportional representation. That'll neuter their crazies for good (hopefully).

And, while Labour has an exceptional electoral record in Scotland, don't rely on that continuing indefinitely. I have been a Labour voter and supporter all my adult life (until 2011, obviously) but even I wouldn't contemplate voting for them at present. Labour in Scotland has always been on the right (in Labour terms), and there has always been an element of holding your nose as you vote for them, but the Majority SNP government and the independence debate have exposed then for what they are: a self-serving bunch of reactionaries with a barely concealed contempt for Scotland and its people.

Labour no longer releases its party membership numbers, but estimates taken from memberhip fee income in its latest accounts point to a figure of less than 4,000. It's reckoned that vitually everyone in the party is either an elected politician (or a candidate), a paty or union official, or a relative of someone who is! I'll not vote for them again until they change and I suspect there are a lot of people like me. I'm loathe to put too much faith in opinion polls in Scotland given their track record, but Labour's standing in Holyrood voting intention - in mid-term, and after 6 years of SNP government - is pointing to another meltdown. Some polls even have an unprecedented lead for the SNP in Westminster VI. One poll even had Alex Salmond as more popular than Ed Miliband amongst Labour voters in Scotland. Nothing is certain, especially with what is going on just now, but don't count on it being business as usual in the next UK general election, regardless of the independence vote.

As for winning a voice for northern England, you're going to do just that - win it. Westminster doesn't decentralise power without being forced to do it. You definitely need a voice, though.

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This is important stuff. I'm sure we are all on the same side in  this and it is far too important to be left in the hands of the demagogue-in-chief. Salmond has a lot of ground to make  up if he is to reach the 50% +1 vote he needs . I am concerned that his rabble-rousing and false promises will alienate those intelligent Scots people he needs to win over.  

 

Another thought. Will an independent Scotland be able to maintain the standards it set with the Edinburgh tram system and the Scottish Parliament Building?

 

The timetable seems to be contracting, though, which is good, since it hastens the date by which the Scotch start to reap the rewards of independence. Indeed , as one respected commentator has it, Salmond intends that Scotland would become independent "in March 2016, just before the start of the 2016 election campaign". On this timetable, the devolved SNP administration would become the first government of an independent Scotland. Transferring powers before the election would also prevent the possibility that Scotland votes for independence and then elects pro-union parties to negotiate the terms...Or call a fresh referendum.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-21331302

 

The appellation "Project Fear" is a fiction..just like Braveheart.

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Curiosity: I'd just like to see how it pans out

Schadenfreude: I've net quite a few scots nats and every one of them was an obnoxious bore who thinks that brave heart was a documentary and who ranted on about 'you English' and/or 'the English and how I personally or England in general was to blame for everything bad about Scotland and how 'the English' appropriated the wealth and bounty if Scotland leaving the Scots impoverished etc etc . The last time I endured this was at a wedding reception in a mansion originally owned by a Scots mine owner . I agreed with him saying that my father was ###### off driving to the pit in the same rolls Royce two years running abd having larks' tongue sandwiches for his snap.

I love Scotland and I've lived there and made some great friends but the snp get on my #### especially the smug self satisfied salmond

 

For someone who tediously holds to account anyone who expresses even the most trivial stereotype on here, that is an incredible piece of prejudiced nonsense.  So you had a hard time from a bigot at a wedding in Fife years ago - get over it. As you would preach to others expressing a similar level of ignorance, you can't judge the many by the few.

As for the SNP, it's funny that the party has many English members (most of the English people I work with voted for them in 2011), has English MSPs and had, until recently, two English-born ministers in the eight strong Scottish Cabinet. Alex Salmond is as much of an Anglophile as you're likely to find in Scotland (or anywhere else for that matter) and I can honestly say that I've never had any problems from the SNP, its members or its supporters. In my experience - and I'm not stupid enough to assume this holds true for all unionists/British nationalists - I've found that the worst Anglophobia comes from the most hardline opponents of Scottish independence. (And, laughingly, so do most references to Braveheart).

I think there are just over 450,000 English-born people living in Scotland at present, something like 9% of the population. I can't think of many other countries that would accept such an influx of people without even a hint of serious ethnic tensions arising. I'm sorry you had a bad experience, although are you sure that the prejudices you display here didn't shine through? People can be so sensitive about that sort of thing.

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This is important stuff. I'm sure we are all on the same side in  this and it is far too important to be left in the hands of the demagogue-in-chief. Salmond has a lot of ground to make  up if he is to reach the 50% +1 vote he needs . I am concerned that his rabble-rousing and false promises will alienate those intelligent Scots people he needs to win over.

Ha! A Tory, and an admirer of Thatcher to boot, calling someone a demagogue.

 

Another thought. Will an independent Scotland be able to maintain the standards it set with the Edinburgh tram system and the Scottish Parliament Building?

Holyrood was Westminster. There was a perfectly good building in the Old Royal High School but the Westminster government of the time didn't want to use it as, apparently, it was a 'nationalist symbol'. Contrast and compare with modern capital projects - various road and rail improvements, the new Forth Bridge - that come in on time and under budget since Westminster's PFI/PPP craziness was abandoned.

Edinburgh trams is an Edinburgh council project which the SNP minority government tried to cancel in 2007. It was voted down by the unionist parties.

On the whole, the devolved government and parliament have a good track record of deliverying, especially since a Scottish-based party took control. The day the start doing things like constructing aircraft carriers without planes to go on them is the day I'll start witholding my support.

 

The timetable seems to be contracting, though, which is good, since it hastens the date by which the Scotch start to reap the rewards of independence. Indeed , as one respected commentator has it, Salmond intends that Scotland would become independent "in March 2016, just before the start of the 2016 election campaign". On this timetable, the devolved SNP administration would become the first government of an independent Scotland. Transferring powers before the election would also prevent the possibility that Scotland votes for independence and then elects pro-union parties to negotiate the terms...Or call a fresh referendum.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-21331302

Keep up!

 

The appellation "Project Fear" is a fiction..just like Braveheart.

Project Fear is the in-house name of the Better Together campaign - the proof is in the pudding! As Alan Cochrane, Telegraph columnist and arch-Unionist, said in one of his columns, whoever thought of that title should be taken out and shot. Another name/slogan they came up with is UKOK. :D

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Tbf I find Alex Salmond to be particularly disingenuous and childish even by politicians' standards but the SNP do seem to have a decent record in government.

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I use the Scottish parliament building as a case study for when I'm explaining to senior executives what happens when they allow scope creep to go unchecked. Over 20,000 change requests approved in total, most from politicians who shouldn't have been allowed near the project. Most government project failures anywhere in the UK can usually be put down to idiot politicians interfering or changing the scope and getting all huffy and precious about their status.

I think that any politician that interferes with a project should be liable for every extra £ of overspend. They can either pay back as cash from their personal estate or we can deduct £10 for every punt to the private parts a taxpayer can give them.

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I think there are just over 450,000 English-born people living in Scotland at present, something like 9% of the population. I can't think of many other countries that would accept such an influx of people without even a hint of serious ethnic tensions arising.

That's because you're either in a heroin induced coma or are too busy beating each other senseless at various football grounds to give a toss about outsiders.

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I think there are just over 450,000 English-born people living in Scotland at present, something like 9% of the population. I can't think of many other countries that would accept such an influx of people without even a hint of serious ethnic tensions arising. I'm sorry you had a bad experience, although are you sure that the prejudices you display here didn't shine through? People can be so sensitive about that sort of thing.

 

 

 

Are English born people really a different ethnic group to Scots?  I'm not sure that Scotland is universally tolerant, I'm not sure whether you've noticed or not but there seems to be some tension between a couple of the main christian sects.

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Ha! A Tory, and an admirer of Thatcher to boot, calling someone a demagogue.

 

Holyrood was Westminster. There was a perfectly good building in the Old Royal High School but the Westminster government of the time didn't want to use it as, apparently, it was a 'nationalist symbol'. Contrast and compare with modern capital projects - various road and rail improvements, the new Forth Bridge - that come in on time and under budget since Westminster's PFI/PPP craziness was abandoned.

Edinburgh trams is an Edinburgh council project which the SNP minority government tried to cancel in 2007. It was voted down by the unionist parties.

On the whole, the devolved government and parliament have a good track record of deliverying, especially since a Scottish-based party took control. The day the start doing things like constructing aircraft carriers without planes to go on them is the day I'll start witholding my support.

 

Keep up!

 

Project Fear is the in-house name of the Better Together campaign - the proof is in the pudding! As Alan Cochrane, Telegraph columnist and arch-Unionist, said in one of his columns, whoever thought of that title should be taken out and shot. Another name/slogan they came up Got your excuses lined it I see.with is UKOK. :D

 

Got your failure excuses script off pat,I see. Like Belushi in the sewer scene in The Blues Brothers, " It not my fault!"

 

Project Fear is the in-house name of the Better Together campaign 

 

No it isn't.

 

Overall, a  stereotypical response, picking an argument with your own side...like a Saturday night in Sauchiehall Street.

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For someone who tediously holds to account anyone who expresses even the most trivial stereotype on here, that is an incredible piece of prejudiced nonsense.  So you had a hard time from a bigot at a wedding in Fife years ago - get over it. As you would preach to others expressing a similar level of ignorance, you can't judge the many by the few.

As for the SNP, it's funny that the party has many English members (most of the English people I work with voted for them in 2011), has English MSPs and had, until recently, two English-born ministers in the eight strong Scottish Cabinet. Alex Salmond is as much of an Anglophile as you're likely to find in Scotland (or anywhere else for that matter) and I can honestly say that I've never had any problems from the SNP, its members or its supporters. In my experience - and I'm not stupid enough to assume this holds true for all unionists/British nationalists - I've found that the worst Anglophobia comes from the most hardline opponents of Scottish independence. (And, laughingly, so do most references to Braveheart).

I think there are just over 450,000 English-born people living in Scotland at present, something like 9% of the population. I can't think of many other countries that would accept such an influx of people without even a hint of serious ethnic tensions arising. I'm sorry you had a bad experience, although are you sure that the prejudices you display here didn't shine through? People can be so sensitive about that sort of thing.

I stereotyped no one

I was careful not to do so.

Of course I don't think that all SNP supporters correspond with the impression I was careful and sincere in pointing out specifically what related to my own experience, and certainly that applies to Scots people in genaral.

I mistrust nationalism of any kind.

 

on a point of information I've had this kind of experience several times. and on another point the wedding was that of a scots friend and I had an absolute ball.

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